If you were wondering what happened with Alta..

Gordon Liddy
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3/28/2021 4:38am Edited Date/Time 3/28/2021 4:41am
duckdog77 wrote:
While I get the push for electric vehicles there’s still a long ways to go. Don’t see it happening in the next 14 years. Cars, dirt...
While I get the push for electric vehicles there’s still a long ways to go. Don’t see it happening in the next 14 years. Cars, dirt bikes, toys of sorts sure. They will become more popular. But getting the electrical grid to with stand a whole nation with electric everything is going to be a big undertaking.

Also Serious question....Are we even close to being able to haul with an EV? Half my buddies in the work force haul 10-20,000lb rigs to work and back. How all you guys getting your 35’ 5th wheel Toy haulers to lorettas? Forget about it. There’s still a long way to go.
The one ton pickups that everybody uses to haul their campers and toys with will be the last consumer vehicles to convert to electric. The last vehicles on the road to convert will be the long haul tractor trailer segment in 2040-2050.
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Gordon Liddy
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3/28/2021 4:42am Edited Date/Time 3/28/2021 4:43am
I fully expect a government cash to clunkers type program to get people's old ice vehicles off the road once electric vehicles are widely available with competitive pricing.
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resetjet
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3/28/2021 7:08am
Electric jet ski.....gonna be heavy.......
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nickm
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3/28/2021 7:24am
bad juju wrote:
I think it will kill the aftermarket sector, FMF PC, Yosh. VP, Twin Air, ect. Suspension will still flourish.
nickm wrote:
I think the aftermarket is going to be selling a lot of software and a lot of high performance electronic components and a lot of bling...
I think the aftermarket is going to be selling a lot of software and a lot of high performance electronic components and a lot of bling, no different than they do now. If you thought they were making margin selling $1000 dollar pipes, wait till you see their smiles selling $1000 mapping downloads.
bad juju wrote:
working in the electronics industry for nearly 4 decades, my guess is "no" on getting to alter their software without voiding any warranty items, not to...
working in the electronics industry for nearly 4 decades, my guess is "no" on getting to alter their software without voiding any warranty items, not to mention software to get in to modify and how much that would cost. its nothing for lets say Allen Bradley to charge 15k for instance. also depending on the type of drive they have the parameters do not have a lot of room for adjustments, this is an insurance policy to the effect to protect the system. I would like to tune one though, heat will kill the electronics I would think.
There isn't any warranty on new bikes anyways and there are a lot of guys on here with $1000 vortex ECUs in their bike, or a $500 ECU remap on their stock ECU. \

Considering all these shops already are running $500K CNC mills and $30K flow benches, I doubt anyone is worried about the $15K for software equipment.
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The Shop

nickm
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3/28/2021 7:27am
On the long haul thing - VW group already has 800V batteries that get to full charge in 20 minutes. Suspect it might be less than 4 years before they get that down to 5 minutes. So much for the long haul argument.

From a business perspective, they 100% don't give a shit about ICE or electric, its a business case. if electric is cheaper to run, refuel and maintain then guess what all the fleet will be?
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bad juju
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3/28/2021 9:12am
nickm wrote:
I think the aftermarket is going to be selling a lot of software and a lot of high performance electronic components and a lot of bling...
I think the aftermarket is going to be selling a lot of software and a lot of high performance electronic components and a lot of bling, no different than they do now. If you thought they were making margin selling $1000 dollar pipes, wait till you see their smiles selling $1000 mapping downloads.
bad juju wrote:
working in the electronics industry for nearly 4 decades, my guess is "no" on getting to alter their software without voiding any warranty items, not to...
working in the electronics industry for nearly 4 decades, my guess is "no" on getting to alter their software without voiding any warranty items, not to mention software to get in to modify and how much that would cost. its nothing for lets say Allen Bradley to charge 15k for instance. also depending on the type of drive they have the parameters do not have a lot of room for adjustments, this is an insurance policy to the effect to protect the system. I would like to tune one though, heat will kill the electronics I would think.
nickm wrote:
There isn't any warranty on new bikes anyways and there are a lot of guys on here with $1000 vortex ECUs in their bike, or a...
There isn't any warranty on new bikes anyways and there are a lot of guys on here with $1000 vortex ECUs in their bike, or a $500 ECU remap on their stock ECU. \

Considering all these shops already are running $500K CNC mills and $30K flow benches, I doubt anyone is worried about the $15K for software equipment.
Had many bikes with no warranty being recalled to correct issues, many here have had manufactures fix/replace failed components, it goes on and on. 500k on a cnc or 30k on a flow bench is a lot of $$ for sure. But these pieces of equipment will not be outdated any time soon. However the software industry is on a constant move, forces us to buy new versions because the old format will not function with the new. Also, a remap on an ignition is a bit less to tackle then say a servo motor. Your basic vfd will have roughly 10-15 parameters to enter for your "getting you started" with approx 500 parameters in the system. Again you will need the software to make the choices in there let alone reconfigure. Servo is around 5000 parameters and much tighter in the amount of adjustment window. I have no doubt electric is coming, but, and this is a real one. This country has an infrastructure that is fossil fuel driven, been that way since the model T, and this infrastructure is under supported and we've building it since the beginning. So I don't see how we will have an infrastructure that will support an all electric transportation. Our grid is under engineered. Look a the lone star state. We as a country really only have a network of 3 main grids. Sorry to get off the rails haha. The push for all electric is stupid I believe, and is going to be a forced and painful transition.
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brocster
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3/28/2021 10:09am
@badjuju I completely agree. I believe those pushing for all electric don’t fully understand how atleast 90% of their day is comprised of fossil fuel consumption in one way shape or form. The grid can’t handle status quo but the push is to load it even more (charging) without plans to add additional large scale power producers. I caught wind of a few majors switching over but have also heard of a few current producers shutting down so any gain in infrastructure would be minimal at best.
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dnf736
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3/28/2021 11:03am
All California public fleets to be 100% electric (where applicable) by 2035, this includes off road like loaders, backhoes and such. 2023 50% of all replacement purchases must be electric or at minimum a hybrid. Low carbon fuels also factor in as a credit towards E-vehicles but the state hasn't figured out how just yet.

You think electricity is expensive now, just wait to when it goes nation wide then global.

Also, my son just went to work for a company converting Class 8 to electric. Manufacturers are sending them straight truck cab & chassis with zero drive train to convert for port, short haul delivery and trash, their back log is incredible and they are so successful a global drivetrain manufacturer already purchased the company.

In business this is the approach I have to take when it comes to electric...
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devotid
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3/28/2021 11:44am
I cant wait to be searching junk yards in 2035 for a piston for my 2021 KTM.....



Great.
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3/28/2021 12:09pm
Moto Nomad wrote:
There is no turning back the electrification tide, bros. In 30 years we'll be like the local steam engine club, parading our antique ICE vehicles.:lol: 2035...
There is no turning back the electrification tide, bros. In 30 years we'll be like the local steam engine club, parading our antique ICE vehicles.Grinning
2035 is the inflection point and goal of many government policies.
philG wrote:
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop. As will lots...
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop.

As will lots of others.

They may as well just set fire to the money IMO . At least it will keep them warm.
Good, less fuckwits at the track then.
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ACBraap
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Fantasy
3/28/2021 6:15pm
DAG wrote:
We can tote our inefficient ICE generators out to the track to charge our electric bikes.
BAMX wrote:
In CA, we have rolling blackouts every time it gets hot but, we are going to use millions of extra KW's to charge all of this...
In CA, we have rolling blackouts every time it gets hot but, we are going to use millions of extra KW's to charge all of this stuff. I'm sure that it will work out well.
Meanwhile other idiot politicians are wanting to remove hydro dams on the Columbia. I guess they think we’re going to power the all electric future entirely with wind and solar. Seems like if the powers that be believed in electric, we’d be investing in more dams and nuclear.
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Gordon Liddy
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3/28/2021 7:16pm
nickm wrote:
On the long haul thing - VW group already has 800V batteries that get to full charge in 20 minutes. Suspect it might be less than...
On the long haul thing - VW group already has 800V batteries that get to full charge in 20 minutes. Suspect it might be less than 4 years before they get that down to 5 minutes. So much for the long haul argument.

From a business perspective, they 100% don't give a shit about ICE or electric, its a business case. if electric is cheaper to run, refuel and maintain then guess what all the fleet will be?
Long haul trucks will remain diesel for many more years.

You are 100% correct about the business case of ICE vs electric though.
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Zoom
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3/28/2021 7:49pm Edited Date/Time 3/28/2021 7:51pm
Just for the record BRP did not buy Alta. BRP was interested in buying Alta, but instead waited until Alta shut down and then picked up the IP of Alta's battery pack for a fraction of what the buy out would have. The IP was really what they wanted.
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JeepnMike
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3/28/2021 9:06pm
philG wrote:
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop. As will lots...
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop.

As will lots of others.

They may as well just set fire to the money IMO . At least it will keep them warm.
You are passionate :D Around these parts, EVs are a rolling statement (which makes Elon Musk's current situation/comments more entertaining for those that already drive Teslas).

Kidding aside, my fear is how they appear to be planning on executing this transition. Offer incentives to buy electric, while raising/taxing gas prices to the point of it being unaffordable to drive ICE powered vehicles. I am at a point in life where I have learned having a vehicle that is paid off, is amazing. I have a few very nice vehicles and just got done paying off a new $85K Powerstroke to pull my toys with. At this point in my life, I have a vehicle for every need, and all paid for and never want to buy a vehicle again. Imagine what it would cost to purchase an EV HD truck?? No thanks.

If they want to push towards EVs and offer incentives for those needing new cars, that is great. But forcing people by cutting fuel supply and taxing fuel to the point of unaffordability as a means to force this change, that is a whole new problem and it seems like that is exactly where they are taking us.
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kage173
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3/29/2021 4:29am
philG wrote:
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop. As will lots...
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop.

As will lots of others.

They may as well just set fire to the money IMO . At least it will keep them warm.
For everyone of you that leave there will be 10 that join. I look outside my garage and I see more kids than ever ripping up and down the street on electric bikes and scooters.

I can't wait to see the first all electric track open up next to the baseball or soccer fields right in the middle of town and paid for by a municipal bond with dirt cheap entry fees.

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Mr. Afterbar
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3/29/2021 5:03am Edited Date/Time 3/29/2021 5:03am
kage173 wrote:
For everyone of you that leave there will be 10 that join. I look outside my garage and I see more kids than ever ripping up...
For everyone of you that leave there will be 10 that join. I look outside my garage and I see more kids than ever ripping up and down the street on electric bikes and scooters.

I can't wait to see the first all electric track open up next to the baseball or soccer fields right in the middle of town and paid for by a municipal bond with dirt cheap entry fees.

You’re dreaming bud.
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stokes557
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3/29/2021 5:25am
Google how lithium is mined and the disposal of the batteries when they are dead. I don’t see it being any better than ICE.
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3/29/2021 5:38am
An electric jet ski. What could go wrong ?
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Bultaco
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3/29/2021 6:36am
A few points.

- A few years ago, lithium was not even in the same sentence as battery. It has environmental issues. So do lead and acid. Most likely lithium will not be the final substance used to build a battery.

- Politician's forcing EV by taxing/restricting ICE. Pushing the agenda of the fattest donation is what politicians do. This is not an issue with EVs. It is an issue of paid agendas.

- EVs in town or embraced by the "normal" public. The public at work and home do not like noise. A half century ago, at the beginning of dirt bikes golden era, we were fighting access because of noise. The motto then was "Less Sound = More Ground". One only has to look at the last 30 years to illustrate how mountain bike trails and parks have flourished while moto is closed or pushed further and further into the fringe.

- As currently built, the electrical gird can not support wide spread EVs. The current electrical gird cannot even support high demand days of people living a life. This is not an EV problem, it is an infrastructure problem. Humans have never had a problem solving problems when motivated to do so. EVs will force that issue. There are smart engineers that can figure this out. And plenty of conflicting interests to confound it.

I love sound as much as anyone. Nothing will ever replace the excitement and sound of a 125 starting line, a V12 Merlin straining to turn a 11' propeller on the front of a P51, or a sprint car at full throttle. But I don't need sound to enjoy riding a dirt bike. In fact I'd spend a lot more time having fun on my dirt bike if it did not make any sound. I wish Alta were still making bikes. I planned on having one by now. When Honda or Yamaha get their act together, I'll be one of the first in line. For me this is about riding time.
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kevinr
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3/29/2021 11:07am
In fact I'd spend a lot more time having fun on my dirt bike if it did not make any sound. I wish Alta were still making bikes. I planned on having one by now. When Honda or Yamaha get their act together, I'll be one of the first in line. For me this is about riding time.

I feel the same way. I actually wouldn't miss the noise at all though. I don't think today's 4 strokes sound good at all which is 75% of all the bikes in my area in most cases. 4 years ago I thought my next bike would have been an Alta or some other brand of electric bike but it looks like maybe I have to wait a little longer. I am confident that we will see widespread adoption in my lifetime though.
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philG
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3/29/2021 1:35pm
philG wrote:
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop. As will lots...
I disagree, i would rather eat my own shit than ride or drive an EV of any kind, so i will just stop.

As will lots of others.

They may as well just set fire to the money IMO . At least it will keep them warm.
kage173 wrote:
For everyone of you that leave there will be 10 that join. I look outside my garage and I see more kids than ever ripping up...
For everyone of you that leave there will be 10 that join. I look outside my garage and I see more kids than ever ripping up and down the street on electric bikes and scooters.

I can't wait to see the first all electric track open up next to the baseball or soccer fields right in the middle of town and paid for by a municipal bond with dirt cheap entry fees.

But they are buying them cos they are 'the latest thing' , like BMX bikes and skateboards were in the 70's.

In the same way that people who by Tesla's are dick wavers, and buy them 'cos i can and you cant' , they will stop buying them when the proles can afford them , which will destroy the kudos.. and they will move on to some other overpriced and impractical toy.

The fact that Tesla only makes money from selling carbon credits to ICE companies, which tells you the reality... there is little economy of scale with EV;'s , because the rare earth metals cost is only going one way.

Sales in the UK are down to tax breaks that make them a no brainer for people not buying their own cars, but that is being cut, so Tesla's will have little or no subsidy in the future due to being positioned as a luxury brand
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Johnny Ringo
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3/29/2021 4:55pm
So what size Honda ICE generator should I buy to charge my motorcycle?
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JeepnMike
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3/29/2021 5:41pm
So what size Honda ICE generator should I buy to charge my motorcycle?
I never thought about that.. At the track, yeah, good point Grinning The irony is hilarious. It will end up at some point where some of the folks with a lot more money than I have, will have multiple batteries while the poor folks are sitting there watching a generator charge their battery.
nickm
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3/29/2021 7:12pm
ACBraap wrote:
Meanwhile other idiot politicians are wanting to remove hydro dams on the Columbia. I guess they think we’re going to power the all electric future entirely...
Meanwhile other idiot politicians are wanting to remove hydro dams on the Columbia. I guess they think we’re going to power the all electric future entirely with wind and solar. Seems like if the powers that be believed in electric, we’d be investing in more dams and nuclear.
dams and nuclear are the way to go for sure if we are going to get "emission-less" power output at the quantity it'll be needed at. Solar and wind are a horrible waste of land IMO.
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nickm
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3/29/2021 7:13pm
So what size Honda ICE generator should I buy to charge my motorcycle?
Can't remember being at a track that wasn't on the electrical grid. They'll sell power at the track same way they do hookups at campsites.
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nickm
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3/29/2021 7:16pm
philG wrote:
But they are buying them cos they are 'the latest thing' , like BMX bikes and skateboards were in the 70's. In the same way that...
But they are buying them cos they are 'the latest thing' , like BMX bikes and skateboards were in the 70's.

In the same way that people who by Tesla's are dick wavers, and buy them 'cos i can and you cant' , they will stop buying them when the proles can afford them , which will destroy the kudos.. and they will move on to some other overpriced and impractical toy.

The fact that Tesla only makes money from selling carbon credits to ICE companies, which tells you the reality... there is little economy of scale with EV;'s , because the rare earth metals cost is only going one way.

Sales in the UK are down to tax breaks that make them a no brainer for people not buying their own cars, but that is being cut, so Tesla's will have little or no subsidy in the future due to being positioned as a luxury brand
Teslas is a weird California thing that's irrelevant elsewhere. Im Europe they've already been overtaken in sales by almost all the European major car brands that just happen to have put out electric cars that run perfectly, don't have taped on bumpers and sell for a normal price.

IMO Tesla never was a luxury brand, interiors on them are garbage, and build quality is worst in the industry.
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zehn
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3/29/2021 7:55pm
Lol you know phil has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about when he mentions Tesla in a thread about ORV
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3/29/2021 10:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/29/2021 10:36pm
Several have talked about long haul trucks...here is a real solution...it’s coming.


https://www.hyliion.com/
Hyliion is carbon negative, you also have XLfleet and companies like lightning emotors, then look at new battery tech like Quantumscape, toyota, etc that are developing much better battery tech.

I have heavily invested in these and other companies...will we have full electric 18 wheelers any time soon all over our highways I don’t believe son...will we have hybrid based on RNG that run the generator that recharges a much smaller battery pack...I believe so I’ve even put piles of money on it.

One can look at history and tell that America doesn’t stand still..change happens if you like it or not.

I own all ice items currently, but lots of plug in tools have gone the way of battery powered. It’s a matter of time and investment...I won’t be surprised if we look back and wonder how electric made bikes so good....by opening up more riding areas do to lack of noise, etc.
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Zoom
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3/30/2021 6:09am
For all those that think Alta was created to "save the environment."...

It wasn't.

The founders at Alta wanted to make a dirt bike that was easier to ride fast. Plain and simply. If you would have rode one you would understand.

I was an Alta Regional Manager and had hundreds of riders demo my fleet. Everyone that rode one came back with a huge smile on their face. Isn't that the reason we ride?
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