Tomac Speaks Track Reform

peltier626
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3/26/2021 4:42am
150 open cc and 250 open cc. MIC DROP!
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GangGreen
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3/26/2021 5:10am
WFO stated above,"Gnarly WHOOPS used to be what riders and spectator raved about. Now you dont hear about them at all."

Heck, they even dumbed down the Daytona Supercross. I hope the Atlanta races have very wet dirt, that's the only way a track gets gnarly. Daytona USED to be TOUGH, even for the strumpets..



Photo Credit - @gavlakracing
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Silas444
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3/26/2021 5:14am
peltier626 wrote:
150 open cc and 250 open cc. MIC DROP!
I agree on principal, but I think it should be 200cc and 350cc. That, plus reducing the weight limit by ten pounds, would be exactly what the sport needs. This change would also alter the way the riders negotiate track obstacles, thereby making that better and more competitive as well.

And it ain't never gonna happen. Neither the FIM nor the AMA has the requisite testicular fortitude.
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The Shop

3/26/2021 5:49am
Definitely needs to change. I get about 3/4 rounds in then l’m bored with SX and just watching because it’s on and waiting for MX to get started. It’s becoming a bit like a procession similar to F1.
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Jeff_Brines
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3/26/2021 6:02am Edited Date/Time 3/26/2021 6:03am
Curious, does anyone (or any site) track number of passes in a race? If not, it should be.

It'd be pretty easy to compare passing in a 450 main in 2015, 2016, 2017 and so on.

I don't doubt what Tomac is saying, but it'd hold more water if we could look at statistics and go "yeah, nobody passes anymore"

I know the level is super high this year, lots of contendas' (say it with the accent) but without passing the sport is pretty boring to watch.

This should be a fairly closely watched statistic by track builders. If passing falls by more than one standard deviation (which I bet it has), they need to go back to the drawing board.
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Forty
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3/26/2021 6:07am
If ALL of the racers raced as hard as they could for the entire race it would be epic racing.
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mx 219
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3/26/2021 6:08am
The thing I will say too is passing from 20th to 10th isn't the same as passing from 5th to 1st, in that usually the guys at the front are what 1 second or more per lap faster than the guys at the back of the pack.

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Fourth_Floor
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3/26/2021 7:21am
I don't think we're going to see any radical track changes. If I were a bettin' man I'd say they want these guys bunched up and able to do the same lines to make the racing tighter so we're not getting the same dude winning a race by 20 seconds. I also think they'd rather not have a lot of passing opportunities because they want the riders to get desperate and start bouncing people out of the way. That's what gets all the attention. Nobody cares when Eli makes a clean pass but when Dylan wiped out Craig that was a huge deal for a month.

These people are selling a product and what the "fans" want to see FAR outweighs what the riders want to see. They want huge crashes, they want aggressive riding, they want guys getting punted off the track, they want 15 riders all within a second of each other's lap times. Someone said it in a different thread about how their friends who never rode get bored watching a race after like 5 minutes. This is the crowd they are trying to rope in and how do you make a race exciting to people like that? Lots of crashes and contact. I'm glad I'm just a spectator haha. All of us diehards are going to watch no matter what as we can appreciate, from riding ourselves, just how impressive it is to even ride a Supercross track. They already got us on board.

Look at the UFC. Do their fans want to see a clean, technical grappling match or do they want to see a shitload of blood and a dude get knocked the fuck out?

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Speeddemon73
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3/26/2021 8:00am Edited Date/Time 3/26/2021 8:06am
Supercross tracks are not going to change no matter how many riders or die-hard fans complain. Promoters putting on supercross races are not interested in the opinions of these groups of people. At the end of the day, track builders are told what they need to build to provide a visual experience that will entice the average jerk off to spend his money to come to the races or sign up for a streaming subscription. Promoters aren't interested in enticing motocross racers because they already know they will show up or open their wallet. They are targeting the average guy who thinks wheelie boys are cool or their kids like DangerBoy. This means high-speed and high-flying action track designs. Tracks are not built with the racer in mind. About the biggest technical aspect that has been incorporated into tracks nowadays has been sand. Which, in my opinion, is about the dumbest thing to put on a supercross track to make it more "technical." Where did hard-pack SX tracks go? How many times do you see teams use different tires for different tracks anymore? If racers want to see better tracks that provide a better platform for racing then they need to form a strong riders union that would have a big enough influence to strong-arm promoters into actually making changes. Most of these riders make more than enough money to invest in such an idea and there are more than enough big-name vets in motocross that could form the board to help govern the group with the best intentions for the riders in mind. Because honestly, the AMA doesn't give a crap about riders anymore, they just care about filling their pockets along with promoters. Don't believe me? Cancel your AMA membership and see how hard these people try and get you to rejoin. I canceled mine, and have gotten stupid amounts of "Come Back!" emails and letters in the mail to rejoin. Some changes the group would then discuss amongst other things to make supercross racing better: slower technical track designs, new dirt, eliminate production rule. The racers should be priority #1, not the fans. Make the racing good and the rest will follow. The same can be said for motocross tracks. Y'all can argue on here till your fingers are tired, but things aren't going to change until the riders have a big enough voice that they can yell just as loud as the promoters and make things happen. No riders = no races = no money for promoters and racing organizations.
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peltier626
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3/26/2021 9:23am Edited Date/Time 3/26/2021 9:24am
Want passes? Take away the riders salary and pay with wins and postion bonuses only.
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motomike137
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3/26/2021 10:39am
Sully22 wrote:
can't they design 90 corners to have more than one fast, flat track line everyone takes? Why make the track 20'+ wide in those corners, pile...
can't they design 90 corners to have more than one fast, flat track line everyone takes? Why make the track 20'+ wide in those corners, pile up all that dirt on an outside berm, and then no one ever uses it in a race?
Zycki11 wrote:
Or place a hump on the inside to slow that line down. Another issue the track is having is timed qualifying. All the riders find the...
Or place a hump on the inside to slow that line down. Another issue the track is having is timed qualifying. All the riders find the fast race line and just hammer that line. It was much better before without dart fish and having race qualifying. This promoted different lines and creativity. Today lacks all of the above
"Timedqualifyingpractice" is definitely part of the problem. I watch it but hate it lol.
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motomike137
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3/26/2021 10:42am
I'd like to see an all sand track. Just deep ass beach sand with a few lumps and bumps and very few jumps.
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brimx153
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3/26/2021 11:03am
They need bigger jumps coming out of the 180 big berms . And force riders to have to use the berm to geat the speed to clear the next jump . Atm . U can crawl around the very bottom, always protecting your line and is nearly alway s quicker because of shorter track distance. And still can jump the next jump easy. If the jump was big enough. It would force riders to have to leave the door open coming into 180s and the rider behind can block pass or square up .
BroFoSho
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3/26/2021 11:29am
I believe it was Arlington 2011 that had two whoops sections. One was GNARLY and huge that even whoop-god himself James Stewart struggled to consistently blitz
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CJ Hadwin
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3/26/2021 11:33am
BroFoSho wrote:
I believe it was Arlington 2011 that had two whoops sections. One was GNARLY and huge that even whoop-god himself James Stewart struggled to consistently blitz
Exactly...since when is challenging professional athletes a bad thing? I get we don't want them to get hurt, but if the top 15 dudes are within a second....it's not challenging enough. Plain and simple.
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Motodave15
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3/26/2021 2:12pm
What about Dynamic Tracks??

Basically 2 lanes, That are designed one way during time practice/qualifying....SO move qualifying up about 3 hours.... Then as soon as the qualifying is over the sections are plowed and rebuild completely different?

(I do not know how long it takes to form jumps with a bulldozer, soo its really just a guess on my part).

Now also what happened to Creative freedom with the tracks? Nobody every mentions this. why do the lanes have to be perfectly straight? why cant we make a S turn with whoops throughout the whole section... turn while hitting whoops.. or a step on table top that turns down into a dragon back into a corner.

I wish somebody matthes or Gypsy or even whiskey throttle show.. would interview somebody about track designs and get some answers.
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EngIceDave
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3/26/2021 2:33pm
I still maintain that a hybrid of supercross and outdoor racetracks, such as Daytona or Atlanta Motor Speedway, is the most likely answer.

The tracks can be supercross, but longer, little more "racey"

Bike has too much power for stadiums. Racing has become ballet or gymnastics....Jump, hit your mark, jump, turn, hit mark.

Battles of tenths on the watch that doesn't translate to actual racing. Then best gate, best start, check out, audience ZZZZZZZZZZZZ

If going to stay in stadiums, need more whoops, deeper and longer sand sections and wall stops. Those are the obstacles that cause the most unforced errors.
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Sully22
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3/26/2021 3:13pm
Would be interesting to know if Dirt works, AMA, Feld, or whoever has done a study / kept data on what obstacles have caused the most injuries over time...anyone know if it's been looked at or if there's any data on it?

One area I I don't understand this year is the whoops. They are so tamed down. in the past it feels like we didn't see guys jumping until later in the mains when the whoops really broke down...now they're jumping in qualifying. Also doesn't help when there's only one whoop section with like10 or so whoops, and that's counting the little starter bump.
BroFoSho
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3/26/2021 4:05pm
Motodave15 wrote:
What about Dynamic Tracks?? Basically 2 lanes, That are designed one way during time practice/qualifying....SO move qualifying up about 3 hours.... Then as soon as the...
What about Dynamic Tracks??

Basically 2 lanes, That are designed one way during time practice/qualifying....SO move qualifying up about 3 hours.... Then as soon as the qualifying is over the sections are plowed and rebuild completely different?

(I do not know how long it takes to form jumps with a bulldozer, soo its really just a guess on my part).

Now also what happened to Creative freedom with the tracks? Nobody every mentions this. why do the lanes have to be perfectly straight? why cant we make a S turn with whoops throughout the whole section... turn while hitting whoops.. or a step on table top that turns down into a dragon back into a corner.

I wish somebody matthes or Gypsy or even whiskey throttle show.. would interview somebody about track designs and get some answers.
Even if you gave them a parade lap before the heat races, that would still be super sketchy.

When you go to a new track, do you hit every jump first lap out?
zehn
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3/26/2021 6:14pm
peltier626 wrote:
Want passes? Take away the riders salary and pay with wins and postion bonuses only.
Wow what a shit take. More like, “want to kill the sport at the professional level”
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peltier626
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3/26/2021 7:16pm Edited Date/Time 3/26/2021 7:18pm
peltier626 wrote:
Want passes? Take away the riders salary and pay with wins and postion bonuses only.
zehn wrote:
Wow what a shit take. More like, “want to kill the sport at the professional level”
Part sarcasm, half the truth though. Shit take, yep. Is this more appropriate? Want passes? Reduce the riders base salary and increase the win and position bonuses!
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westeast
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Fantasy
3/26/2021 9:29pm
A couple comments mentioned safety. I do agree that safety should be a consideration, but if you're dumbing tracks down for safety then maybe SX/MX or 2 wheeled sports in general aren't your thing. There is some inherent risk associated with riding a motorcycle. It's a big part of what makes it exciting. If it wasn't dangerous a lot more people could do it and we wouldn't be tuning in to watch these guys do it.

peltier626
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3/27/2021 5:36am Edited Date/Time 3/27/2021 9:16am
Today's riders and programs in general are a totally different system that favors less aggressive racing. Do you think Reed and Ricky was going back and train at the same facility during the week? Do you think James Stewart and Chad Reed was flying together to the races on a private jet? Does anyone think Windham and Villaman were drinking coffee and eating croissants after the races? These warriors had their pride on the line every single time they lined up. They put it all out every single race. Today's mentality will not produce the great racing or rivalry of that era.
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devotid
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3/27/2021 6:16am
More off cambers, Abstract spaced whoops and more flat corners. Please mix it up a bit more.

Stop spoon feeding these guys their same old practice tracks.

My $0.02
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RonJon
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3/27/2021 6:42am
Chad reed just took off his shirt.
Silas444
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3/27/2021 6:53am
You can all just call me, "Mister Broken Record," I suppose. It ain't the whoops, it ain't the corners, it ain't the tracks, and it ain't the riders - NO NO NO - it's the BIKES. When even the guys in the LCQ can quad a rhythm section immediately out of a corner, there's a problem. These tracks are built inside small stadiums, after all, so unless the powers-that-be decide to start using the seats and the parking lot in their track designs, there will never be enough space to challenge the beefed-up, tricked-out 250 and 450 motors out there racing. Unless you address that issue, the ONLY way to make the current competitiveness better is to make the current tracks more dangerous - and nobody wants that. At least, I don't.

So I'll say it again: reduce the weight limit by ten or even fifteen pounds, reduce the displacement limits to 200cc and 250cc, and test all the motors on a dyne for horsepower that must resemble a stock motor. If you did that, what you'd get is exactly what you all say you want: safer, better, racing. The thing is, you don't really want it if it means getting rid of all those beefed-up, tricked-out motors, 'cause after all, those bikes can quad an entire rhythm section right out of a corner - and you all just LOVE watching that.

That's called a "Catch 22."
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3/27/2021 10:40am Edited Date/Time 3/27/2021 10:41am
GForce MMG wrote:
Every single person involved with building the tracks knows these things. They even have 50+ proven track designs that produced great racing in the past to...
Every single person involved with building the tracks knows these things. They even have 50+ proven track designs that produced great racing in the past to copy.

They won't do it.

Sounds like its time for a new track building crew.

I don't think it's that they won't, it's the fact they have not.

Tracks today are so expected, even a split lane or an elevated corner becomes talk of the night because it's get every pair of eyeballs on it.

I have thought this for years and have "put up" with it, so I am glad others and now riders, are voicing their opinions. However, I don't think this will gain much traction coming from the defending champ who has been getting dusted more so than ever and that's unfortunate.

motomike137
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3/27/2021 1:11pm
Silas444 wrote:
You can all just call me, "Mister Broken Record," I suppose. It ain't the whoops, it ain't the corners, it ain't the tracks, and it ain't...
You can all just call me, "Mister Broken Record," I suppose. It ain't the whoops, it ain't the corners, it ain't the tracks, and it ain't the riders - NO NO NO - it's the BIKES. When even the guys in the LCQ can quad a rhythm section immediately out of a corner, there's a problem. These tracks are built inside small stadiums, after all, so unless the powers-that-be decide to start using the seats and the parking lot in their track designs, there will never be enough space to challenge the beefed-up, tricked-out 250 and 450 motors out there racing. Unless you address that issue, the ONLY way to make the current competitiveness better is to make the current tracks more dangerous - and nobody wants that. At least, I don't.

So I'll say it again: reduce the weight limit by ten or even fifteen pounds, reduce the displacement limits to 200cc and 250cc, and test all the motors on a dyne for horsepower that must resemble a stock motor. If you did that, what you'd get is exactly what you all say you want: safer, better, racing. The thing is, you don't really want it if it means getting rid of all those beefed-up, tricked-out motors, 'cause after all, those bikes can quad an entire rhythm section right out of a corner - and you all just LOVE watching that.

That's called a "Catch 22."
I hate to admit it but you are right. Not only are the bikes to much for these tracks (that have shrunk over the years) but the nature of the 4 strokes hurts the show as well. 250 and 125 two strokes were perfect in stadiums. But we are never going back to that formula and they will never adopt the formula you are talking about either.
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