RIDER WEIGHT VS HAVING MUSCLE?

Edited Date/Time 3/19/2021 12:23pm
The question i have moto bros, is it better to be a bit heavier and have muscle or to be lean and skinny for moto? I ask because last summer my weight was around 165-170 all cardio work but never felt "strong" so after heavy gym time this fall and winter I'm floating around 195-200. should i keep cutting and try to get weight back down to where i was last year at risk of losing all my progress in gym or stay where i am and ride my 125 harder?

edit:
left this key info out
38 years old
5ft 11"
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kb228
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3/18/2021 7:25am
Aldon stresses power/weight ratio. What that ratio is i dont know. Maybe 1:2? Being 150lbs and deadlifting 300lbs would be an example?
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1
3/18/2021 7:31am
Being strong doesn’t mean you have to be built like the hulk. There’s also a good chance you’re carrying around more body fat than you think. As mentioned, Aldon wants his riders strong, but almost universally riders who go into his training program lose 15+ pounds. You would probably be better off shedding weight.
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gt80rider
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3/18/2021 7:38am
The more muscle you have, the less endurance.... like everything else in life, its a balance... but it makes me wonder if guys like Mookie who are packing some mass, if they would be a bit better off with less muscle during long mains...
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Gilby122
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3/18/2021 7:43am
I'm 43 and in arguably the best shape of my life. Abs. Muscles. Been a lifter for 25 years. Weight has fluctuated depending on my goals, but I'm currently 181 lbs and lean. And I regularly see overweight guys that light up the smokes and crack a beer shortly after whooping my ass in a long, hot moto. Drives me nuts. I don't race against anyone that LOOKS like I do and I know I'm in better "shape" than anyone on the line with me in the 30 and 40 class, but it boils down to seat time and technique if you ask me. 170 lbs or 200 hasn't proven to make a lick of difference in my time racing as much as experience and time has.

That said, if you got the technique and seat time, I'd get the beach muscles and stay lean so you can look good on and off the bike! Cool
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The Shop

3/18/2021 7:44am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2021 7:45am
Seems the consensus so far is to be as light as possible at the risk of losing the gains of the off season....
Thanks guys keep the advice coming
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hyler199
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3/18/2021 7:44am
gt80rider wrote:
The more muscle you have, the less endurance.... like everything else in life, its a balance... but it makes me wonder if guys like Mookie who...
The more muscle you have, the less endurance.... like everything else in life, its a balance... but it makes me wonder if guys like Mookie who are packing some mass, if they would be a bit better off with less muscle during long mains...
I think Mookie could lets say lose a couple pounds always of course...but i think genetically hes a beast and different than his brother who could be more lean. Of course with enough time and professional advice he could completely change his body. But naturally I think he'd be always buffer than lets say Weston Peick, who I think, in comparison could of lean out easier/faster than Malcolm.

this is all coming from someone who is overweight lmfao
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Camp332
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3/18/2021 7:49am
Bro, are you kidding!? Keep the gainz, and flex all over the local skinbags.
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3/18/2021 7:52am
Camp332 wrote:
Bro, are you kidding!? Keep the gainz, and flex all over the local skinbags.
laughed so hard after seeing this came from new jersey...
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davidgrip
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3/18/2021 7:55am
The question i have moto bros, is it better to be a bit heavier and have muscle or to be lean and skinny for moto? I...
The question i have moto bros, is it better to be a bit heavier and have muscle or to be lean and skinny for moto? I ask because last summer my weight was around 165-170 all cardio work but never felt "strong" so after heavy gym time this fall and winter I'm floating around 195-200. should i keep cutting and try to get weight back down to where i was last year at risk of losing all my progress in gym or stay where i am and ride my 125 harder?

edit:
left this key info out
38 years old
5ft 11"
Plateau your training. I set my training at max weight for 12 reps. Keeping my body weight at 185. If you were 165-170, 185 is more than enough added strength. I also have a 125 and this weight is not an issue.
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murph783
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3/18/2021 8:01am
Honestly it’s better to be on the lighter side. Last I was racing 125’s I tried to maintain 140-145 (I’m 5’8). Still plenty strong at that to throw around a 125. I’m on a 450 now and right around 200 but that’s just cause I got fat and lazy lol. I enjoy lifting and keeping some muscle on now but even at that I should only be like 180 tops
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Falcon
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3/18/2021 8:23am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2021 8:23am
It's a tradeoff. I'm 6'1" and 170, when I'm at my natural, well-trained state. I'm a skinny dude and I have to really work to gain any muscle. I am strong because I moto and ride MTB, but the amount of energy I have to expend during a race to stay "on it" is more by percentage than someone who is stronger. Thus, I feel I get tired earlier.
The positive side of the tradeoff is that my bike/rider combo is lighter and I get a lot of holeshots. I also usually win drag races to any given corner in that situation.
What's the outcome? Stay lean and you'll have a better performance advantage early in the race but may suffer later. Gain muscle and you'll have a power/weight ratio disadvantage, but may be stronger late in the race. On a 125, I'd lean toward the lighter side if I were you. On a 250 or 450F, the muscle sure helps.

It's worth noting that Ricky Carmichael took advice from Jeff Ward, who told him to hit the weights a little bit. RC was training with Johnny O' at the time, and Wardy casually mentioned that Johnny could outrun, outswim, and outbicycle Jeff any day of the week, but Wardy still felt he could win MX races (and proved it,) over O'show because of muscle mass. It was about that time that RC started becoming invincible.

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Stuntman949
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3/18/2021 8:26am
Seems like the lighter you are, the less force it takes to hang on
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crowe660
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3/18/2021 8:32am
I think Mookie’s bulk did him good when he flew onto the cement after accidentally making contact with El Hombre
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Falcon
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3/18/2021 9:03am
Seems like the lighter you are, the less force it takes to hang on
True, but also the less power you have in reserve to apply that force. Could I bench press 100 pounds more times than a stronger man could bench press 105? Probably not. 100 pounds vs. 150? Yeah, maybe. 100 pounds vs. 200? Yeah, very likely.
This would be a great subject for a kinesthetic study.
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Skylebones
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3/18/2021 9:08am
I ride an rmz250 and most of my life I've been 120lbs and 5'7". The bike seemed to toss me around a lot, but my endurance seemed good and I could hang on long enough. A couple of years ago I got into lifting and went up to 160lbs. I found I rode a ton better because I had much better control over the bike and for the first time it felt like I was riding it instead of going for a ride. However, my endurance did suck a bit so I went down to 150lbs. Now it seems perfect.
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rohr397
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3/18/2021 9:35am
Something to consider is how long your races are. If the typical moto only comes out to 10 minutes or less, being real leaned out to the point of sacrificing muscle mass probably isn't doing you all that much good. The top names getting thrown around here all have to race 20+ minutes indoors and close to 35 minutes outdoors. They've got much different needs and much slimmer margins between their competitors. You may also be genetically dispositioned to slow twitch or fast twitch muscle fibers, which could influence how you train and how you ride.

There's so much to consider, but speaking anecdotally, I would stick to where you're at. Maybe do some cutting through diet and increase the cardio before getting into the swing of things, but continue the gym work as well. At my leanest, I felt sick a lot and would fatigue easily. Right now, I've got more work I want to do on body fat, but I'm in the best shape I've ever been in. I try to run 30+ minutes most days of the week and do higher rep, lower-weight lifting 4-6 days a week.

Maybe it's not THE most optimal for racing, but like someone else said, there are severely overweight and unhealthy people who can outpace me and go the distance in longer races. At an amateur level it doesn't have to be perfect. On the other hand, my life beyond the track is much better as a result of that program and I also feel a bit more protected against injury. Whatever small sacrifice I'm making in terms of absolute performance is worth all of the upsides everywhere else.
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3/18/2021 9:40am
rohr397 wrote:
Something to consider is how long your races are. If the typical moto only comes out to 10 minutes or less, being real leaned out to...
Something to consider is how long your races are. If the typical moto only comes out to 10 minutes or less, being real leaned out to the point of sacrificing muscle mass probably isn't doing you all that much good. The top names getting thrown around here all have to race 20+ minutes indoors and close to 35 minutes outdoors. They've got much different needs and much slimmer margins between their competitors. You may also be genetically dispositioned to slow twitch or fast twitch muscle fibers, which could influence how you train and how you ride.

There's so much to consider, but speaking anecdotally, I would stick to where you're at. Maybe do some cutting through diet and increase the cardio before getting into the swing of things, but continue the gym work as well. At my leanest, I felt sick a lot and would fatigue easily. Right now, I've got more work I want to do on body fat, but I'm in the best shape I've ever been in. I try to run 30+ minutes most days of the week and do higher rep, lower-weight lifting 4-6 days a week.

Maybe it's not THE most optimal for racing, but like someone else said, there are severely overweight and unhealthy people who can outpace me and go the distance in longer races. At an amateur level it doesn't have to be perfect. On the other hand, my life beyond the track is much better as a result of that program and I also feel a bit more protected against injury. Whatever small sacrifice I'm making in terms of absolute performance is worth all of the upsides everywhere else.
This is exactly how i feel/felt, thanks everyone for the tips and i think ill continue to "HOLD THE LINE" Jocko style and keep getting after it to lose some more weight. when i was at 165lb people often said i looked almost sick due to my body make up wasn't meant to be that light...
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SilverSpurs
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3/18/2021 9:59am
gt80rider wrote:
The more muscle you have, the less endurance.... like everything else in life, its a balance... but it makes me wonder if guys like Mookie who...
The more muscle you have, the less endurance.... like everything else in life, its a balance... but it makes me wonder if guys like Mookie who are packing some mass, if they would be a bit better off with less muscle during long mains...
hyler199 wrote:
I think Mookie could lets say lose a couple pounds always of course...but i think genetically hes a beast and different than his brother who could...
I think Mookie could lets say lose a couple pounds always of course...but i think genetically hes a beast and different than his brother who could be more lean. Of course with enough time and professional advice he could completely change his body. But naturally I think he'd be always buffer than lets say Weston Peick, who I think, in comparison could of lean out easier/faster than Malcolm.

this is all coming from someone who is overweight lmfao
African Americans with West African ancestry have a different genetic makeup to 'Caucasians' and have denser, heavier bones and more muscle mass and typically more fast twitch fibres in said muscles and less 'endurance fibres' when in condition.

Black with this makeup are way over represented in sports that require explosive power- think 100 metre sprints- and vastly under represented in endurance sports and in elite swimming because their greater mass has them lower in the water.

rohr397
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3/18/2021 10:16am
This is exactly how i feel/felt, thanks everyone for the tips and i think ill continue to "HOLD THE LINE" Jocko style and keep getting after...
This is exactly how i feel/felt, thanks everyone for the tips and i think ill continue to "HOLD THE LINE" Jocko style and keep getting after it to lose some more weight. when i was at 165lb people often said i looked almost sick due to my body make up wasn't meant to be that light...
A good lesson I've learned from my trainer and can back up with personal experience is just listen to your body. Only you know what makes you feel great or feel like a walking dumpster fire. Train and eat in whatever way works for you and makes you feel you're at your best.

One last thing I'll share is your comment about not being meant to be that light. For some that really is the case. Since at least 11 or so, I've carried a bit more weight in my midsection than I'd like to. Whether I weighed 160 and did tons of cardio or weighed 200 and didn't workout or diet at all, it's always been a battle. I'm currently around 185, good bit of muscle mass, and all of my tests show that I'm at around 15% body fat and have low visceral fat. I experimented with a few strict "long term" diet changes to see if I could knock that little bit of fluff around my gut off-from keto to vegan and all calorie restricted-but each time my body fat would spike up to around 21% and I'd feel some awful side effects along the way.

With that sort of "testing" to find what works for me and what doesn't, I've just stuck to a relatively high protein diet that fall under my weight loss calorie target, cut out added sugar and simple carbs, and have increased the frequency of my cardio and weightlifting to the numbers I mentioned before. My only "supplements" are 5,000 iU of Vitamin D with a Vitamin K supplement to boost absorption, and I use PNG hydration products (sponsor) during my training and racing. My weight isn't dropping and even my body fat percentage hasn't changed all that much, but the body composition finally is, and I feel awesome mentally and physically.

Just feeling better in that sense is probably more of an advantage than anything else. The mental edge of not worrying about getting tired or blowing up and knowing you put in the work so you can push harder is huge.
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3/18/2021 10:18am
It's so hard to answer this question for someone else, it's such a unique thing for each individual. If Malcolm slimmed down to Marvins size it probably wouldn't be healthy for him, and if Marvin bulked up to Malcolms size, he's probably get hurt more. It's all relative.
Riding style also plays a huge role in this topic. Did Peick ride like a bulldog because he is a bigger dude, or is he a bigger dude because he rides like a bulldog?
I think everyone has that sweet spot of muscle mass and flexibility and you can "feel" when you're at the right ratio for riding.
For me it's around 180 and I'm 6'. Any heavier and I feel too restricted on the bike, significantly lighter and I feel weak.
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3/18/2021 10:38am
rohr397 wrote:
A good lesson I've learned from my trainer and can back up with personal experience is just listen to your body. Only you know what makes...
A good lesson I've learned from my trainer and can back up with personal experience is just listen to your body. Only you know what makes you feel great or feel like a walking dumpster fire. Train and eat in whatever way works for you and makes you feel you're at your best.

One last thing I'll share is your comment about not being meant to be that light. For some that really is the case. Since at least 11 or so, I've carried a bit more weight in my midsection than I'd like to. Whether I weighed 160 and did tons of cardio or weighed 200 and didn't workout or diet at all, it's always been a battle. I'm currently around 185, good bit of muscle mass, and all of my tests show that I'm at around 15% body fat and have low visceral fat. I experimented with a few strict "long term" diet changes to see if I could knock that little bit of fluff around my gut off-from keto to vegan and all calorie restricted-but each time my body fat would spike up to around 21% and I'd feel some awful side effects along the way.

With that sort of "testing" to find what works for me and what doesn't, I've just stuck to a relatively high protein diet that fall under my weight loss calorie target, cut out added sugar and simple carbs, and have increased the frequency of my cardio and weightlifting to the numbers I mentioned before. My only "supplements" are 5,000 iU of Vitamin D with a Vitamin K supplement to boost absorption, and I use PNG hydration products (sponsor) during my training and racing. My weight isn't dropping and even my body fat percentage hasn't changed all that much, but the body composition finally is, and I feel awesome mentally and physically.

Just feeling better in that sense is probably more of an advantage than anything else. The mental edge of not worrying about getting tired or blowing up and knowing you put in the work so you can push harder is huge.
thanks rohr,
you and I seem like we have a lot in common, also i should have said this as well but i have a pretty good grasp on what works for me diet and fitness wise now as i dropped a large amount of weight the last 2-3 years so there's that. When i was at 165ish, sure i was lean but had some lose skin and just never felt "right" if that makes sense.
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gt80rider
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3/18/2021 12:11pm
It's so hard to answer this question for someone else, it's such a unique thing for each individual. If Malcolm slimmed down to Marvins size it...
It's so hard to answer this question for someone else, it's such a unique thing for each individual. If Malcolm slimmed down to Marvins size it probably wouldn't be healthy for him, and if Marvin bulked up to Malcolms size, he's probably get hurt more. It's all relative.
Riding style also plays a huge role in this topic. Did Peick ride like a bulldog because he is a bigger dude, or is he a bigger dude because he rides like a bulldog?
I think everyone has that sweet spot of muscle mass and flexibility and you can "feel" when you're at the right ratio for riding.
For me it's around 180 and I'm 6'. Any heavier and I feel too restricted on the bike, significantly lighter and I feel weak.
More so... when you look at guys like Peick and Mookie, would they have more energy left in the last 10 minutes of a moto if they were packing 10 lbs less muscle? muscles are great for the ladies, but demand a lot of energy late in a moto......
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3/18/2021 12:51pm
I think a lot of the injuries could be attributed to how skinny the riders are, christian craig looked horribly lean at the start of the year with no muscle. Look at the hit mookie took on the concrete floor the other weak, i think his build helped him with that impact.

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mxman
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3/18/2021 1:56pm
The more muscle the more oxygen you require. I say that at 6'1 225lbs.
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skeef
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Fantasy
3/18/2021 2:02pm
I get arm pump like crazy but the chicks like my big arms, lift on bro. 6'3 210 Wink
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151
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3/18/2021 2:24pm
Gilby122 wrote:
I'm 43 and in arguably the best shape of my life. Abs. Muscles. Been a lifter for 25 years. Weight has fluctuated depending on my goals...
I'm 43 and in arguably the best shape of my life. Abs. Muscles. Been a lifter for 25 years. Weight has fluctuated depending on my goals, but I'm currently 181 lbs and lean. And I regularly see overweight guys that light up the smokes and crack a beer shortly after whooping my ass in a long, hot moto. Drives me nuts. I don't race against anyone that LOOKS like I do and I know I'm in better "shape" than anyone on the line with me in the 30 and 40 class, but it boils down to seat time and technique if you ask me. 170 lbs or 200 hasn't proven to make a lick of difference in my time racing as much as experience and time has.

That said, if you got the technique and seat time, I'd get the beach muscles and stay lean so you can look good on and off the bike! Cool
Question, In those long hot motos are you getting tired, fatigued, or winded? I'm curious how "in shape" compares to "in race shape".

Technique is definitely big. I've seen pro MTB guys get wasted on the track when they should be just getting warmed up.
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IanMac138
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3/18/2021 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2021 2:45pm
If Musquin can rail a factory 450 for nearly 40 minutes in the middle of July while looking like he's on the local chess team, it comes down to your strength to endurance ratio and how your technique is. Good technique and flow = less energy.

Edit: I swear Ryan Hughes didn't just type this. LMAO.
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CKNY
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3/18/2021 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2021 2:48pm
Gilby122 wrote:
I'm 43 and in arguably the best shape of my life. Abs. Muscles. Been a lifter for 25 years. Weight has fluctuated depending on my goals...
I'm 43 and in arguably the best shape of my life. Abs. Muscles. Been a lifter for 25 years. Weight has fluctuated depending on my goals, but I'm currently 181 lbs and lean. And I regularly see overweight guys that light up the smokes and crack a beer shortly after whooping my ass in a long, hot moto. Drives me nuts. I don't race against anyone that LOOKS like I do and I know I'm in better "shape" than anyone on the line with me in the 30 and 40 class, but it boils down to seat time and technique if you ask me. 170 lbs or 200 hasn't proven to make a lick of difference in my time racing as much as experience and time has.

That said, if you got the technique and seat time, I'd get the beach muscles and stay lean so you can look good on and off the bike! Cool
151 wrote:
Question, In those long hot motos are you getting tired, fatigued, or winded? I'm curious how "in shape" compares to "in race shape". Technique is definitely...
Question, In those long hot motos are you getting tired, fatigued, or winded? I'm curious how "in shape" compares to "in race shape".

Technique is definitely big. I've seen pro MTB guys get wasted on the track when they should be just getting warmed up.
Bike shape and the stereotypical in shape definately differ. I know fat guys that will whoop my ass if they have been riding a lot and I have not. As soon as riding season starts I don’t do much in the gym or weights. I ride my Dirtbike and bicycle. I’m 48, I hit the weights hard this off-season and I’m up to 185 from my ideal 165lbs. Good amount of that is fat. I’m gonna have to bust my ass with diet and endurance training now to get ready. Skill can get me so far riding and racing with the 20 year olds but I’m feeling my age for sure and just can’t go as hard anymore. Pretty sure that extra bulk I put on is gonna slow me down.
3/18/2021 3:01pm
The question i have moto bros, is it better to be a bit heavier and have muscle or to be lean and skinny for moto? I...
The question i have moto bros, is it better to be a bit heavier and have muscle or to be lean and skinny for moto? I ask because last summer my weight was around 165-170 all cardio work but never felt "strong" so after heavy gym time this fall and winter I'm floating around 195-200. should i keep cutting and try to get weight back down to where i was last year at risk of losing all my progress in gym or stay where i am and ride my 125 harder?

edit:
left this key info out
38 years old
5ft 11"
What are you comfortable at? That’s what I would go with.

Cardio is cardio whether you skinny, fat, or muscular. A fat guy with good cardio won’t be killing any marathons, but he will finish. A skinny guy with minimal cardio would struggle to run a 5k.

I’ve always been my best when I was stockier, I was stronger on the bike and controlled it better and used less energy. Those saying you can’t be in good shape if you’re muscular have no idea what they’re talking about. If you know how to train and diet, you can be pretty stocky and still have great cardio.
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1
Gilby122
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WY US
3/18/2021 3:40pm
Gilby122 wrote:
I'm 43 and in arguably the best shape of my life. Abs. Muscles. Been a lifter for 25 years. Weight has fluctuated depending on my goals...
I'm 43 and in arguably the best shape of my life. Abs. Muscles. Been a lifter for 25 years. Weight has fluctuated depending on my goals, but I'm currently 181 lbs and lean. And I regularly see overweight guys that light up the smokes and crack a beer shortly after whooping my ass in a long, hot moto. Drives me nuts. I don't race against anyone that LOOKS like I do and I know I'm in better "shape" than anyone on the line with me in the 30 and 40 class, but it boils down to seat time and technique if you ask me. 170 lbs or 200 hasn't proven to make a lick of difference in my time racing as much as experience and time has.

That said, if you got the technique and seat time, I'd get the beach muscles and stay lean so you can look good on and off the bike! Cool
151 wrote:
Question, In those long hot motos are you getting tired, fatigued, or winded? I'm curious how "in shape" compares to "in race shape". Technique is definitely...
Question, In those long hot motos are you getting tired, fatigued, or winded? I'm curious how "in shape" compares to "in race shape".

Technique is definitely big. I've seen pro MTB guys get wasted on the track when they should be just getting warmed up.
Good question! Never winded. Hell, I don't hardly breath for six or seven laps at a time! Laughing

Definitely pumped up, which from my experience is all technique. Guess my point was I'm in great overall physical condition. Minimal body fat, but built and strong. But it doesn't seem to translate to my racing as I don't get to spend nearly as much time riding as I can in the gym during the week. Also evident by the guys smoking two packs a day beating me in motos.

So the original question of should he drop back down or stay where he's at simply made me think the weight and/or gym time, at most amateur levels, probably doesn't help or hinder as much as time, technique, and experience on the bike.
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