Raw talent vs Raw speed?

MPJC
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6/4/2020 9:28am
Reading others’ comments, it seems that there is a tendency to equate talent with technique. Technique is usually the product of much practice. Both the smooth, technical rider and the aggressive, balls to the wall rider can be equally talented. If anything, wouldn’t it take more talent to ride fast without great technique? I’m not sure that this talent vs speed distinction makes a lot of sense. Technical vs aggressive makes more sense to me.
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kage173
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6/4/2020 11:03am
I've always hated the term raw talent or natural talent in any sport. What lesser riders/players call "Natural talent" is usually some young kid who actually practiced a ton, listened to coaches, and focused on technique at a young age. By time they get older, they don't have to try as hard because they have perfect technique that they developed years before.

A friend told me a story about taking a Donnie Hansen school and they said he made Josh on a 65 at the time ride around the track nonstop with a cone in one hand or the other and Josh was beating guys on 250s not holding a cone. 10 years later everybody just says the guy is a 'naturally gifted rider'.
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EngIceDave
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6/4/2020 11:32am Edited Date/Time 6/4/2020 11:34am
It's a finesse' thing....

Some have some God given ability to be blessed with the ability to ride the bike like a high level ballet dancer...A very exacting and well balanced natural ability

Others have the ability to just pin it and hang on. It may not be as pretty, but can be blazing fast and effective.

Tomac is a good example of just raw speed. He can go stupid fast, but you can't say it's a pretty style or very "flowy"

Windham, Pichon, Bayle (Lot of French guys, actually) and even Roczen have the ability to go very fast without looking it, because it's very precise and exacting....it has a natural looking "flow"..... that's talent

You may be able to teach less talented guys to have speed, but you can't teach talent.

Just like not everyone can be Jimi Hendrix or SRV
You might be able to play, and play very well, but you weren't blessed like they were
EngIceDave
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6/4/2020 11:33am
kage173 wrote:
I've always hated the term raw talent or natural talent in any sport. What lesser riders/players call "Natural talent" is usually some young kid who actually...
I've always hated the term raw talent or natural talent in any sport. What lesser riders/players call "Natural talent" is usually some young kid who actually practiced a ton, listened to coaches, and focused on technique at a young age. By time they get older, they don't have to try as hard because they have perfect technique that they developed years before.

A friend told me a story about taking a Donnie Hansen school and they said he made Josh on a 65 at the time ride around the track nonstop with a cone in one hand or the other and Josh was beating guys on 250s not holding a cone. 10 years later everybody just says the guy is a 'naturally gifted rider'.
Josh is, because he could do that.
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The Shop

kage173
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6/4/2020 11:39am
EngIceDave wrote:
Josh is, because he could do that.
It's the other way around. Because he received the right instruction from a young age. Because he didn't just fold up his arms and refuse to do it. Because he actually listened and did what he was told and did it over and over again, when other kids were farting around. He developed the technique and skill to go faster than others at an earlier age.

Of course, Josh is just a place order for all riders/players that do that.
EngIceDave
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6/4/2020 11:57am
Known Josh since a kid, he has a crazy amount of just pure raw talent, like Pastrana

Donnie knew what he could do and pushed him to hone that

We don't have to agree

Pastrana is another example of just pure talent, where he can go fast in or on anything....it just a gift
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6/4/2020 11:59am Edited Date/Time 6/4/2020 12:16pm
kage173 wrote:
It's the other way around. Because he received the right instruction from a young age. Because he didn't just fold up his arms and refuse to...
It's the other way around. Because he received the right instruction from a young age. Because he didn't just fold up his arms and refuse to do it. Because he actually listened and did what he was told and did it over and over again, when other kids were farting around. He developed the technique and skill to go faster than others at an earlier age.

Of course, Josh is just a place order for all riders/players that do that.
I've dealt with a bunch of athletes who receive a significant time training at a very young age (in a non-moto youth sport) and concepts that maybe are difficult to learn even at 8 years old are second-nature to them.

But the one thing that is obviously true is that among priorities in overall development of a person, footwork sequences (or bike control in our sport) should not be the main focus.
hamncheeze
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6/4/2020 12:04pm
I've dealt with a bunch of athletes who receive a significant time training at a very young age (in a non-moto youth sport) and concepts that...
I've dealt with a bunch of athletes who receive a significant time training at a very young age (in a non-moto youth sport) and concepts that maybe are difficult to learn even at 8 years old are second-nature to them.

But the one thing that is obviously true is that among priorities in overall development of a person, footwork sequences (or bike control in our sport) should not be the main focus.
This is true. I have friends who literally grew up on skis and rose up to the Canadian national team level as juniors but then stopped either due to injury or school. Those guys at age 50 are still incredible on skis even though they might get 5 days/yr now. Whereas kids like me who started age 10-12 on skis, I never got that innate ability.
durt bikes
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6/4/2020 12:25pm
Strengthnesses absolutely
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Forty
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6/4/2020 3:48pm
CPR wrote:
Don’t know how you can call either ‘raw’ when you’re talking about the skills of professionals who have devoted their lives up until this point to...
Don’t know how you can call either ‘raw’ when you’re talking about the skills of professionals who have devoted their lives up until this point to honing those skills.
This. Raw = undeveloped. They are both past that.
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FIREfish148
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6/4/2020 5:39pm
I think when you get to that level it’s harder to differentiate the raw talent vs raw speed. Like some have pointed out, some of the riders tend to look smoother than others at times. Anyone that has sat and watched all of the top riders in person with any type of real discernment can tell who is just plowing through the stuff and who is finessing it.
I can vividly remember watching k-dub go through the s-turns at Washougal after passing RC in 2001 and thinking “holy shit, no one in the world can do that” he wheelied out of the first turn into the right hander wide open then basically wheelied out of the right hander and landed his front wheel perfectly into the drop after it... raw talent.
Also Musquin going up horsepower hill at the end of a moto as fast as anyone but 10x smoother. Raw talent.
Pourcel, Michael Byrne, Chase Sexton, Christian Craig, Chad Reed all come to mind. When James Stewart was on he was on a whole other level though.
To say that Tomac isn’t on the same level of Roczen as far as raw talent is ridiculous, but I get what RC is saying. He was really trying to highlight how fast Roczen was going through the whoops. He was absolutely flying through them last night. Raw talent.
McG194
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6/4/2020 8:29pm
McG194 wrote:
I don't know what is so hard to understand. Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes...
I don't know what is so hard to understand.

Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes that's Kenny's downfall, if the bike isn't right he has a hard time going away from a textbook perfect riding style/body positioning and overcoming it.

Raw speed is a guy that just blitzes everything and you wonder how the hell they hung on. Eli has raw speed and when it comes to a track that requires finesse he will struggle more than Kenny. To me that is what made Sunday's race so impressive, that track was slicker than owl poop and throttle control and smoothness was key.
wolf918 wrote:
A track that required fines and who won? Did you see how many times tomac was drifting the corners? I’d say tomac has great throttle clutch...
A track that required fines and who won? Did you see how many times tomac was drifting the corners? I’d say tomac has great throttle clutch control when he needs it.
You quoted me but I don't think you understood what you quoted. I was giving Eli a compliment because he usually not known as a finesse rider (or a fines rider as you call it?) yet he was dominant on a track that required finesse.
Mit12
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6/4/2020 8:39pm
Roczen’s natural talent allows him to make it look easy to go fast while Tomac just pounds through obstacles with aggression and speed. Both riders are amazingly talented. I believe that Roczen has always relied on his natural talent to make up for being in elite shape and Tomac needs to be in far better shape to go the same speed with his style. Having races with only 3 days rest seems to be catching up with Roczen. Time will tell.
Ozy
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6/4/2020 9:40pm
in the main last night at Salt Lake, Kenny was smoking Eli in the whoops at the start of the race. Not too many laps later Eli Passes Kenny in the whoops and checks out. Kenny appears deflated and drops off the pace. Not sure how you separate talent from speed. After watching ET3 power slide out of a corner and hit a jump at speed all night long it sure seems like he is the fastest and most talented guy on the track
WCRider
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6/5/2020 12:50am
Tomac is also a freak of nature, he is like Michael Phelps. Not a lot of people have that gift of nature. Shape/Talent and you build speed on that.

I agree with Ozy, watching ET3 power slide out of corner boots on the pegs is something special.

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Momus
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6/5/2020 2:26am
McG194 wrote:
I don't know what is so hard to understand. Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes...
I don't know what is so hard to understand.

Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes that's Kenny's downfall, if the bike isn't right he has a hard time going away from a textbook perfect riding style/body positioning and overcoming it.

Raw speed is a guy that just blitzes everything and you wonder how the hell they hung on. Eli has raw speed and when it comes to a track that requires finesse he will struggle more than Kenny. To me that is what made Sunday's race so impressive, that track was slicker than owl poop and throttle control and smoothness was key.
wolf918 wrote:
A track that required fines and who won? Did you see how many times tomac was drifting the corners? I’d say tomac has great throttle clutch...
A track that required fines and who won? Did you see how many times tomac was drifting the corners? I’d say tomac has great throttle clutch control when he needs it.
It's actually inverted.

Tomac has the skills, Roczen the raw speed.

Tomac has better skills and balance- especially evident on rough tracks and in his ability to ride off line- and is stronger, and fitter than the smooth, effortless raw speed of Roczen.
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6/5/2020 3:08am
Raw talent = the ability to ride comfortably in difficult conditions
Raw speed = the balls to hit a section wide open in difficult conditions
teamddr
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6/5/2020 3:48am
Raw talent = a silky smoothness that Just seems to flow from the subject with consummate ease and cant be taught
Raw speed = wrestling with the crocodile and winning, the track and the bike has to bend to his will. Usually attributed to riders with a strong physique and good stamina.
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6/5/2020 2:57pm
My best shot at describing it. Tomac May be the first one to quad something, roczen will be the first to do a huge scrub over that quad once he learns tomac is doing it.
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ktm 125
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6/5/2020 3:15pm
raw talent: open the throttle precisely to go fast without spinning
raw speed: lock the throttle and deal to whatever happens later
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Motodave15
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6/5/2020 3:26pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2020 9:14pm
Raw Technique/ Talent = Josh Hansen/Reed/ MC
Raw Balls Speed = RC/ Tomac/JS7
Raw Finesse which is more than Technique= Windham/ JMB/ Pourcel / Roczen
Raw No Talent Hardwork = Peick, A-Ray, Brayton, Osbourne

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6/6/2020 1:03pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Raw Technique/ Talent = Josh Hansen/Reed/ MC Raw Balls Speed = RC/ Tomac/JS7 Raw Finesse which is more than Technique= Windham/ JMB/ Pourcel / Roczen Raw...
Raw Technique/ Talent = Josh Hansen/Reed/ MC
Raw Balls Speed = RC/ Tomac/JS7
Raw Finesse which is more than Technique= Windham/ JMB/ Pourcel / Roczen
Raw No Talent Hardwork = Peick, A-Ray, Brayton, Osbourne

I don't think you can say anyone out there with a pro license has "No Talent".
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HondaFan33
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6/6/2020 1:17pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2020 2:19pm
McG194 wrote:
I don't know what is so hard to understand. Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes...
I don't know what is so hard to understand.

Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes that's Kenny's downfall, if the bike isn't right he has a hard time going away from a textbook perfect riding style/body positioning and overcoming it.

Raw speed is a guy that just blitzes everything and you wonder how the hell they hung on. Eli has raw speed and when it comes to a track that requires finesse he will struggle more than Kenny. To me that is what made Sunday's race so impressive, that track was slicker than owl poop and throttle control and smoothness was key.
So what you are basically saying is Eli is just a squid that doesn’t know when to shut off the throttle? Got it.
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McG194
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6/6/2020 2:45pm
McG194 wrote:
I don't know what is so hard to understand. Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes...
I don't know what is so hard to understand.

Raw talent is a guy that is smooth and flowy and hits everything textbook and precise. Sometimes that's Kenny's downfall, if the bike isn't right he has a hard time going away from a textbook perfect riding style/body positioning and overcoming it.

Raw speed is a guy that just blitzes everything and you wonder how the hell they hung on. Eli has raw speed and when it comes to a track that requires finesse he will struggle more than Kenny. To me that is what made Sunday's race so impressive, that track was slicker than owl poop and throttle control and smoothness was key.
HondaFan33 wrote:
So what you are basically saying is Eli is just a squid that doesn’t know when to shut off the throttle? Got it.
Wow!!!!!!!! I have no idea how you stretched that out of my comment.
The only thing faster than Eli is how fast the Eli fanboys get their panties in a bunch whenever you don't bow your head when you say his name.

6/6/2020 3:27pm
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/06/03/431024/s1200_26DF81F9_0F5F_4214_83BF_AFA7FBF3FE30.jpg[/img]

Brilliant
motomike137
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6/6/2020 4:21pm
One is speed, while the other is talent. Both raw.
At this point in their career there's nothing raw about it. Eli has speed in spades and Kenny has impeccable technique.
Motodave15
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6/6/2020 8:34pm
I don't think you can say anyone out there with a pro license has "No Talent".
I didnt mean no talent in the general sense of no talent... Were comparing on the pro level.. they all work hard and all are talented enough to be a pro.. im saying that at the level they're at they now have to work harder than other riders who have obtained better bikes and other miscellaneous stuff.

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