AC shouldn't stay in 250

ledger
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5/7/2019 9:29pm
I think it's time for him to move on as well. I hate to ask, but is he doing Outdoors ?
BS12
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5/7/2019 10:47pm
Crush, you make some really good points for staying down. However, a lot of your argument is based on the assumption of him winning some titles. There's literally 6 or more guys with the pace to run up front/win the Lites outdoors title (Sexton, Cooper, Ferrandis, AC, Lawrence, Hampshire, A Mart etc...) and although he's a favourite to win the Lites SX Title next year, again anything can happen.

This is a really good topic with solid points on both sides of the fence.

Personally I support the idea of him moving up early. Check out Savatgy's rookie season as a reference.
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Crush
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5/7/2019 11:44pm
BS12 wrote:
Crush, you make some really good points for staying down. However, a lot of your argument is based on the assumption of him winning some titles...
Crush, you make some really good points for staying down. However, a lot of your argument is based on the assumption of him winning some titles. There's literally 6 or more guys with the pace to run up front/win the Lites outdoors title (Sexton, Cooper, Ferrandis, AC, Lawrence, Hampshire, A Mart etc...) and although he's a favourite to win the Lites SX Title next year, again anything can happen.

This is a really good topic with solid points on both sides of the fence.

Personally I support the idea of him moving up early. Check out Savatgy's rookie season as a reference.
Absolutely, but given his relatively constant rise since hitting rock bottom in 2015, and I think we can say outright he was the fastest 250SX rider (Atlanta and wins), you'd have to give him a better than even shot at it.

AND – even if he didn't title, if he won a shit ton, and had another really solid year, he'd still be getting stronger, getting better prepared, hardened etc. This is really his first year of putting it together. His last two finishes being close at Vegas were really because of his comp dropping the ball. He wasn't the guy in any of those series and he hasn't been at all outdoors.

Of course it's all conjecture and it could work either way, but you can't go back, and there's a fuck-tonne of riders who say they wish they waited. AC's already moved up too early once.

The Shop

BS12
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5/8/2019 12:17am
Crush wrote:
Absolutely, but given his relatively constant rise since hitting rock bottom in 2015, and I think we can say outright he was the fastest 250SX rider...
Absolutely, but given his relatively constant rise since hitting rock bottom in 2015, and I think we can say outright he was the fastest 250SX rider (Atlanta and wins), you'd have to give him a better than even shot at it.

AND – even if he didn't title, if he won a shit ton, and had another really solid year, he'd still be getting stronger, getting better prepared, hardened etc. This is really his first year of putting it together. His last two finishes being close at Vegas were really because of his comp dropping the ball. He wasn't the guy in any of those series and he hasn't been at all outdoors.

Of course it's all conjecture and it could work either way, but you can't go back, and there's a fuck-tonne of riders who say they wish they waited. AC's already moved up too early once.
Touche my good sir.

My only concern is, as someone else stated earlier, if he fails to deliver a title (though seemingly unlikely), does his stock decrease?

I guess regardless, when he is ready, there will be multiple contracts on his desk wanting his signature, regardless of if that's 2020 or 2021.
Cortami79
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5/8/2019 12:42am
Maybe an unpopular question (i'm a huge AC fan) but, what is the reason a guy like Cooper Webb can handle the pressure during his 250 days and now at his first succesfull 450 year, and a guy like AC can't? Or why Ferrandis can go into a race like this and live up to his potential? Is it mental?
Crush
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5/8/2019 12:54am
Cortami79 wrote:
Maybe an unpopular question (i'm a huge AC fan) but, what is the reason a guy like Cooper Webb can handle the pressure during his 250...
Maybe an unpopular question (i'm a huge AC fan) but, what is the reason a guy like Cooper Webb can handle the pressure during his 250 days and now at his first succesfull 450 year, and a guy like AC can't? Or why Ferrandis can go into a race like this and live up to his potential? Is it mental?
Ferrandis had a simple job. Win the race, do your best, whatever happens is out of your control.

Coop – perspective I guess.

AC talented as, looking damn good in 2014 as a rookie, a simple crash did way more damage than it shoulda. From there it's been injury, rebuild, injury, rebuild, injury, rebuild and now in his next real crack he just didn't get it done. It's not hard to imagine the weight of expectation and time adding some pressure and really, he wasn't like Savatgy last year. He was looking solid and doing what he needed to do, just as he did the weeks before, and a freak washout on a slick track got him.

Coop, just as talented, has basically had no setbacks until 450s. He's a confident rider who gave himself nothing but confidence over the same timespan with basically no injuries and delivers 3 titles. He's also said things that would indicate he's got reasons and strength in his mind to work with – Two years on a bike he hates (So he's got a reason other than himself to blame) and a couple small injuries. Change teams (Roger D believes in me), get a good result from the back of the pack and then a win and he's away.
5/8/2019 1:13am
Take a pay cut and go to a good team on a 450. Can't be easy in the 250s when winning every race is the only thing that looks even remotely good. Get out of there.
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5/8/2019 1:21am
As much as I would like to see AC in the 450 class, staying in the 250 class could be overall more beneficial to Kawasaki. That way, they could keep AC and Savagty.

With Savagty's successful rookie 450 season, I would be eager to see what he can do in his 2nd year on a bike hes comfortable with. I dont think Savagty will have as successful of a second year if he's having to get use to a new bike and team.

I dont know why or if its just me, but I dont see Savagty adapting to a new bike very quickly and I could see him struggling if he makes a switch.
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kb228
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5/8/2019 3:10am
kb228 wrote:
Its tough. Not being able to get a lites title means you probably wont get a 450 title. The lites titles are much easier to come...
Its tough. Not being able to get a lites title means you probably wont get a 450 title. The lites titles are much easier to come by. Even if you do get one, no promises it will turn into a 450 success.

In adams case, hes proven he CAN do it, he just hasnt executed fully. Did anyone have any doubt he wouldnt get a top 5 in vegas? Absolutely not. Maybe knowing he can do it is enough for him to move up. Hes going to get a kawi 450 ride anyway. Maybe its time for a fresh start. The 250 hasnt been good to him at all.
Ok, I'll bite, how has he proven he can do it? He actually seems to have demonstrated he can't. He's [i]capable[/i] of it, but so are...
Ok, I'll bite, how has he proven he can do it? He actually seems to have demonstrated he can't. He's capable of it, but so are a ton of riders.
Capable and “can” are essentially the same. You said the same thing i did....
kb228
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5/8/2019 3:28am
Cortami79 wrote:
Maybe an unpopular question (i'm a huge AC fan) but, what is the reason a guy like Cooper Webb can handle the pressure during his 250...
Maybe an unpopular question (i'm a huge AC fan) but, what is the reason a guy like Cooper Webb can handle the pressure during his 250 days and now at his first succesfull 450 year, and a guy like AC can't? Or why Ferrandis can go into a race like this and live up to his potential? Is it mental?
Im not so sure AC cant handle the pressure. Hes won plenty of titles before the 250. I think he just has a consistency problem. Its a problem that was worse before and he improved on it greatly this year. Another year of these improvements he will be just fine.

From what i heard on the pulp show, his vegas crash was due to him hitting a hole on the left side of that jump and it launched him weird. It wasnt like he missed a shift or something because of pressure. Just hit a hole weird.
Flip109
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5/8/2019 4:17am
I think his stature will fit a 450 well. He’s prob over riding the hell out of that 250. Anyway follow the money but if a 450 deal is pretty close take it. Anything but a Yamaha that is haha
tcallahan707
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5/8/2019 4:30am Edited Date/Time 5/8/2019 4:31am
It appears that Vital forgot that there are two parties involved when it comes to AC moving up. You all are acting like he has his pick of the litter at whatever price he wants.
Crush
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5/8/2019 5:08am
It appears that Vital forgot that there are two parties involved when it comes to AC moving up. You all are acting like he has his...
It appears that Vital forgot that there are two parties involved when it comes to AC moving up. You all are acting like he has his pick of the litter at whatever price he wants.
Mmmm... he might. If Kawi said no, it's hard to imagine red, white or yellow wouldn't bust their butts to make it happen.
Cortami79
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5/8/2019 5:17am
Cortami79 wrote:
Maybe an unpopular question (i'm a huge AC fan) but, what is the reason a guy like Cooper Webb can handle the pressure during his 250...
Maybe an unpopular question (i'm a huge AC fan) but, what is the reason a guy like Cooper Webb can handle the pressure during his 250 days and now at his first succesfull 450 year, and a guy like AC can't? Or why Ferrandis can go into a race like this and live up to his potential? Is it mental?
Crush wrote:
Ferrandis had a simple job. Win the race, do your best, whatever happens is out of your control. Coop – perspective I guess. AC talented as...
Ferrandis had a simple job. Win the race, do your best, whatever happens is out of your control.

Coop – perspective I guess.

AC talented as, looking damn good in 2014 as a rookie, a simple crash did way more damage than it shoulda. From there it's been injury, rebuild, injury, rebuild, injury, rebuild and now in his next real crack he just didn't get it done. It's not hard to imagine the weight of expectation and time adding some pressure and really, he wasn't like Savatgy last year. He was looking solid and doing what he needed to do, just as he did the weeks before, and a freak washout on a slick track got him.

Coop, just as talented, has basically had no setbacks until 450s. He's a confident rider who gave himself nothing but confidence over the same timespan with basically no injuries and delivers 3 titles. He's also said things that would indicate he's got reasons and strength in his mind to work with – Two years on a bike he hates (So he's got a reason other than himself to blame) and a couple small injuries. Change teams (Roger D believes in me), get a good result from the back of the pack and then a win and he's away.
Yeah you're right about that. Just watched the Gopro of the race and it was a freak incident. Hopefully he picks up the good learning lessons from this and comes back stronger (whatever it may be 250 or 450)
Forty
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5/8/2019 5:34am
AC will do what he’ll do but for selfish reasons I’d like to see him on a 450. We’ve got good racing in the 450 class but another contender can only make it better.

IMO he will take to it quickly and be a ripper right from the get go.
jl0822
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5/8/2019 5:58am
Are PC riders signed by Kawasaki and "loaned" to PC... no?

MX/SX careers are short and rides can be scarce, take the contract that offers the most time on a bike.
If the above is true and Kawasaki were to offer a 3 year deal, Kawasaki/PC have been committed to AC, stay another year in the 250 and then move up, ride is secure.
If X team were to offer a 2 year deal with option for a third, take it, even if it means moving up.
Guess my point is staying down or moving up should be the main focus, securing a ride for the next 2 or 3 years should be.
AC is a prospect, will win 250 or 450.

mx 219
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5/8/2019 6:05am
I thought it was confirmed AC signed for a 450 ride with Kawi...so that rumor holds no weight now?


Okay, it was discussed he signed with Kawi, it was implied on a 450.


IMO J Mart and AC need to move up, both of them. If JMart is staying down because his SX skills aren't on par with MX then that's too bad. He should have been forced up after 17. If he wins the title in 2016 for 3 in a row surely he would have been on a 450 since then.
5/8/2019 6:54am
I fear for his mental state and overall confidence if he decides to stay one more year and it all collapses yet again.

I think he should move up, get some pressure off of his back and start building toward a major championship.
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WW444
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5/8/2019 7:24am

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mb60
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5/8/2019 7:46am
WW444 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/05/08/345338/s1200_IMG_4503.jpg[/img]

Wow nice photshop with his size 26 boot !!!! LOL
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muGz.147
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5/8/2019 7:57am
WW444 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/05/08/345338/s1200_IMG_4503.jpg[/img]

mb60 wrote:
Wow nice photshop with his size 26 boot !!!! LOL
You realize that's his other foot on the ground that you're seeing right? He's been riding the 450...a LOT...and I have a hunch he's done at P.C.
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YZ-MTB
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5/8/2019 11:05am Edited Date/Time 5/8/2019 11:07am
Lots of pieces to this puzzle. After a successful rookie season, how much more $$ does Savatgy want for his next deal, and is Kawasaki willing to pay that amount?

What about Pro Circuit? If AC and Davalos both move up to 450, PC has Forkner and Marchbanks left. I haven't looked it up, but I assume they are both still under contract for next year. Who else are they looking at that is an immediate title contender?

Forkner is obviously a title threat for next year whether he goes East or West. I don't see Marchbanks being ready to be the top guy for PC on the other coast.

While Kawasaki's 450 and 250 Factory efforts are separate teams, I have to believe the factory has plenty of pull with both in deciding who ends up where, as they are providing a lot of the $$.

Kawasaki went into this season with a solid chance to win all three SX titles. The fact they came away with none is surprising, but that doesn't change the fact that they want to be in that same position come A1 next year. Tomac and Forkner are still their best shot at 2 of those titles, and neither Savatgy nor AC are likely title contenders next year in the 450 anyway.

I think Savatgy is the key to where AC ends up. If he wants to get paid, and can get a better multi-year deal on another factory team, then I think we see AC on a 450. If Savatgy settles for another 1 year Kawi deal, I think you see AC on the 250 one more year going for that title, then moving up to 450 the year after.
CrGuy2T
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5/8/2019 11:44am Edited Date/Time 5/8/2019 11:46am
I think a 450 ride will be disastrous to his career at this time. Look at who he has to deal with not only for a few rounds in sx but every round 17 times. He is still very young. This can be used as a clear judgement that its ok for them to stay down. Possibly he's not ready to move up yet. I don't get the concept of the 250 class being a stepping stone. Its professional racing. Its not like he's out there dominating the 250 class anyways.
5/8/2019 1:09pm
CrGuy2T wrote:
I think a 450 ride will be disastrous to his career at this time. Look at who he has to deal with not only for a...
I think a 450 ride will be disastrous to his career at this time. Look at who he has to deal with not only for a few rounds in sx but every round 17 times. He is still very young. This can be used as a clear judgement that its ok for them to stay down. Possibly he's not ready to move up yet. I don't get the concept of the 250 class being a stepping stone. Its professional racing. Its not like he's out there dominating the 250 class anyways.
Professional and stepping-stone aren't mutually exclusive. NASCAR has their underclass (Nationwide or whatever else it's called now), Indy has Indy Lights, F1 has F2/GP2, MotoGP has Moto2 and Moto3. All are professional series and all are feeder classes into their respective elite classes. 250 is where you learn SX, and 450 is where you compete against the best in the world. If you're happy to stay in 250, you're advertising to the world that you don't think you're good enough to race against the best.
5/8/2019 2:18pm
If he's not going to be competitive in 450 after the 250 career he's already had, another year in 250 isn't going to help him. Yes...
If he's not going to be competitive in 450 after the 250 career he's already had, another year in 250 isn't going to help him. Yes, there are 250 champs struggling to keep factory rides in 450. That isn't going to magically change. There are fewer factory rides than past champions. That's true now, and it will be true next year. Factory rides are hard enough to get that he should grab one while it is available. It may not be next year
A 250 title is good, and recent 450 champs all have them, but there isn't causation. A more telling thing is that recent 450 champs all moved up after 4 years or less in 250s. AC went pro 6 years ago. What future 450 champs had was the talent to be competitive as soon as they went pro. And we're championship contenders by year 3. AC was both of those things. It isn't the title that leads to 450 success, it is the talent, and he has that.
He's learned everything he can in 250s. Now he needs to start learning lessons that can't be learned by racing against neo-pros and never-will-bes.
Crush wrote:
[i]If he's not going to be competitive in 450 after the 250 career he's already had, another year in 250 isn't going to help him. [/i]...
If he's not going to be competitive in 450 after the 250 career he's already had, another year in 250 isn't going to help him.

– What? So moving up, stronger, more confident, having had more experience winning, wouldn't be a positive influence? What is the point of the 250 class?


Factory rides are hard enough to get that he should grab one while it is available. It may not be next year

– He's not going to struggle getting a ride initially, he's too marketable and too fast, but there are patterns in this sport that aren't hard to identify. Say your first year or two are just ok, and he's not immune to injury.

A (possibly) 3-time 250 champ, who was better prepared moving up and has a better image is going to get more leeway than the streaky guy who almost got there or barely did.

See IT9 vs Mookie/Bogle/Hahn/Deano. Shit, Savatgy is currently at the mercy of the mercurial rider he actually outperformed in the smaller class!


but there isn't causation

– Damn right there's not, so isn't it better to stay down and make those bonus cheques where your chance of doing it is way higher? He's not making peanuts right now and you move up with silverware and ride the mental wave.


He's learned everything he can in 250s.

– Has he learned to put together a title over a season? He hasn't put together a 8 race regional title, nor a 12 race national title. Coop did this 3 times, and as a result, was anyone really thinking he'd crack once he proved he could win. It was up to Eli to win it, not waiting for Coop to lose.

The 450 class will always be there, and it's not the easier class. MX is so mental. Anything that helps the psyche (let alone the physical and monetary benefits) should not be ignored before the move.
Crush, everything in your argument is based on the reckoning that he's going to win outdoors this year, plus indoors AND outdoors in 2020- something he has shown he hasn't been capable of in how many seasons so far??

So I put to you- IF he doesn't win ANY of those three championships, but MUST move to 450s in 2021, how attractive is hiring AC actually going to be to the factory teams?? Not very IMHO.. Bare in mind he'll be vying for factory rides with potentially 2 2x SX champs (Sexton & Dylan) (As likely as AC winning, lets face it)

Staying another year in 250s is risky business- basically, he MUST win out to keep his 'stock' at where it is now. Anything short of winning, is damaging. Has AC got the mental robustness to deal with that pressure?? As much as you might not like to hear it, last Saturday night suggests he hasn't.

AC- Move up son.
CrGuy2T
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5/8/2019 2:36pm Edited Date/Time 5/8/2019 2:46pm
Crush, everything in your argument is based on the reckoning that he's going to win outdoors this year, plus indoors AND outdoors in 2020- something he...
Crush, everything in your argument is based on the reckoning that he's going to win outdoors this year, plus indoors AND outdoors in 2020- something he has shown he hasn't been capable of in how many seasons so far??

So I put to you- IF he doesn't win ANY of those three championships, but MUST move to 450s in 2021, how attractive is hiring AC actually going to be to the factory teams?? Not very IMHO.. Bare in mind he'll be vying for factory rides with potentially 2 2x SX champs (Sexton & Dylan) (As likely as AC winning, lets face it)

Staying another year in 250s is risky business- basically, he MUST win out to keep his 'stock' at where it is now. Anything short of winning, is damaging. Has AC got the mental robustness to deal with that pressure?? As much as you might not like to hear it, last Saturday night suggests he hasn't.

AC- Move up son.
So go to the 450’s and possibly still not win. He won’t have a ride after 2 years. At least in the 250’s he would sustain a ride and hopefully get a title. Plus win bonuses and everything else. 450’s will be brutal for him. Let’s go faster and fall over more. He’s 22 he has plenty of time to blossom and hone his skills.
mb60
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5/8/2019 2:40pm
CrGuy2T wrote:
So go to the 450’s and possibly still not win. He won’t have a ride after 2 years. At least in the 250’s he would sustain...
So go to the 450’s and possibly still not win. He won’t have a ride after 2 years. At least in the 250’s he would sustain a ride and hopefully get a title. Plus win bonuses and everything else. 450’s will be brutal for him. Let’s go faster and fall over more. He’s 22 he has plenty of time to blossom and hone his skills.
He will not have a ride after 2 years ? So you are convinced he can't win or compete at the next level. But JS17 deserves a factory 450 ride after his showing this year. LOL
gabrielito
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5/8/2019 2:45pm
As others have said this is 100% a money decision. Wherever the money points that is where he should go.
CrGuy2T
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5/8/2019 3:20pm
mb60 wrote:
He will not have a ride after 2 years ? So you are convinced he can't win or compete at the next level. But JS17 deserves...
He will not have a ride after 2 years ? So you are convinced he can't win or compete at the next level. But JS17 deserves a factory 450 ride after his showing this year. LOL
He will be in the same boat as js17 after 2 years. Ac probably will have a ride for 1-2 years then what if he’s not winning?

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