Riders union

dickjackson170 1/12/2019 12:44pm
1/12/2019 12:44pm
Is it me or have we been talking about moto unions for 20 years? The riders have to do it and they haven't. Nothing to discuss.
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KHI Guy
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KHI Guy 1/12/2019 12:58pm
1/12/2019 12:58pm
BR8ES wrote:
What are the current grievances? Besides money..
and getting cheaters reinstated
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KHI Guy
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KHI Guy 1/12/2019 1:01pm
1/12/2019 1:01pm
The privateers must be OK with the current state of affairs, or they wouldn't be showing up to race every week.
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mx43
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mx43 1/12/2019 1:06pm
1/12/2019 1:06pm
mx43 wrote:
You call yourself lostboy for a reason. Keep those blinders on son. I have been in this sport for over 40 years it is someone else’s...
You call yourself lostboy for a reason. Keep those blinders on son. I have been in this sport for over 40 years it is someone else’s turn. The riders are totaling being taken advantage of. Do you think Tickle would be sideline right now. What about James? These guys are low paid entertainment,and mean while the fat cats get fatter. We the consumer are paying the price for these sponsorships while the promoters have no accountability.
lostboy819 wrote:
I started in the sport in 1974 so have seen it all too but what you are really saying you would rather bitch about it than...
I started in the sport in 1974 so have seen it all too but what you are really saying you would rather bitch about it than do something about it, and yes Tickle should be sidelined and same with Stewart. I started racing in 1974 and have see the sport grow and the riders are not being taken advantage of and are doing pretty darn good.
You are a tool Lostboy
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lostboy819 1/12/2019 1:17pm
1/12/2019 1:17pm
mx43 wrote:
You are a tool Lostboy
Thank you. I have been called worse things by much better people than you. Cool
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mxb2
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mxb2 1/12/2019 1:32pm
1/12/2019 1:32pm
mx43 wrote:
You call yourself lostboy for a reason. Keep those blinders on son. I have been in this sport for over 40 years it is someone else’s...
You call yourself lostboy for a reason. Keep those blinders on son. I have been in this sport for over 40 years it is someone else’s turn. The riders are totaling being taken advantage of. Do you think Tickle would be sideline right now. What about James? These guys are low paid entertainment,and mean while the fat cats get fatter. We the consumer are paying the price for these sponsorships while the promoters have no accountability.
lostboy819 wrote:
I started in the sport in 1974 so have seen it all too but what you are really saying you would rather bitch about it than...
I started in the sport in 1974 so have seen it all too but what you are really saying you would rather bitch about it than do something about it, and yes Tickle should be sidelined and same with Stewart. I started racing in 1974 and have see the sport grow and the riders are not being taken advantage of and are doing pretty darn good.
Quit posting facts man. Some dont like the truth. Easier to blame everybody.
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kijen
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kijen 1/12/2019 2:20pm
1/12/2019 2:20pm
mx43 wrote:
You call yourself lostboy for a reason. Keep those blinders on son. I have been in this sport for over 40 years it is someone else’s...
You call yourself lostboy for a reason. Keep those blinders on son. I have been in this sport for over 40 years it is someone else’s turn. The riders are totaling being taken advantage of. Do you think Tickle would be sideline right now. What about James? These guys are low paid entertainment,and mean while the fat cats get fatter. We the consumer are paying the price for these sponsorships while the promoters have no accountability.
lostboy819 wrote:
I started in the sport in 1974 so have seen it all too but what you are really saying you would rather bitch about it than...
I started in the sport in 1974 so have seen it all too but what you are really saying you would rather bitch about it than do something about it, and yes Tickle should be sidelined and same with Stewart. I started racing in 1974 and have see the sport grow and the riders are not being taken advantage of and are doing pretty darn good.
mx43 wrote:
You are a tool Lostboy
Interesting, is he a tool, just because, or is he tool because he does no agree with you.?

Fact is these guys are not forced to race, they choose to, and already know the pros and cons..

Bigger things to worry about...
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MaxPower
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MaxPower 1/12/2019 2:28pm
1/12/2019 2:28pm
the riders do need a Union. It won't ever happen. Dirt bike guys are too individualin their thinking. They won't ever unite. Look at all the laws and land closures to riding. We should unite bigger than the Million Youth March. .Just a handful of riders actually do anything. Most want to work,pay ther bills and have fun the few hours a week on their bike.
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theprizefighter 1/12/2019 2:31pm
1/12/2019 2:31pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2019 2:37pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Give me a list of riders who are asking for someone to look out for them, give me names of riders tossed to the side by...
Give me a list of riders who are asking for someone to look out for them, give me names of riders tossed to the side by the bad promoters, give me the names of the riders who want a riders union. Why is it the snowflakes in the stands who think the riders are getting a raw deal. Nick Wey was making over a million a year when he wasn't even a factory rider and never won a SX.

The purse is not and never has been where the riders make their money. Take away all sponsor money to riders and factory salaries and increase the purse and then the riders would be crying. Racing is not a poor mans sport so to start racing you have to spend money and most will never be able to make money racing and no one ever started racing to make money but a few have the talent to get paid and do very well. so you keep telling the riders to "rise up" but they aint listening. Laughing
Pretty sure Chad Reed wanted one a few years ago. Also, the purses could be bigger and it would help out the guys who aren’t getting as much support. Money is a big problem in the sport right now (Broc Glover mentioned it in an interview), and if something doesn’t change, it may get worse before it gets better.
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MX-LIFE.
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MX-LIFE. 1/12/2019 2:41pm
1/12/2019 2:41pm
lostboy819 wrote:
I think you are right and you are the guy to start the riders union, now which big name riders are you going to sign up...
I think you are right and you are the guy to start the riders union, now which big name riders are you going to sign up first Tomac, Barcia, Anderson ? and how much will you charge the riders for their union dues ? I am on board and look forward to see the progress you make, I think you should have all the riders fully unionized quickly because "the Riders" you speak of are clearly mistreated and should all get on board with out any trouble. Cool
smashingpumpkins167 wrote:
Barcia definitely needs a union rep in his corner. I bet he only made 100 grand last weekend. Oh the humanity!
mx43 wrote:
Yes of sponsor money he did not get that from Feld or Monster!.
He still fucking underpaid..How much did Andrew Luck make last week???
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neverwas 1/12/2019 2:53pm
1/12/2019 2:53pm
smashingpumpkins167 wrote:
Barcia definitely needs a union rep in his corner. I bet he only made 100 grand last weekend. Oh the humanity!
mx43 wrote:
Yes of sponsor money he did not get that from Feld or Monster!.
MX-LIFE. wrote:
He still fucking underpaid..How much did Andrew Luck make last week???
When SX has the audience of the NFL then you can compare the two.
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mxb2
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mxb2 1/12/2019 3:02pm
1/12/2019 3:02pm
mx43 wrote:
Yes of sponsor money he did not get that from Feld or Monster!.
MX-LIFE. wrote:
He still fucking underpaid..How much did Andrew Luck make last week???
neverwas wrote:
When SX has the audience of the NFL then you can compare the two.
Bingo, one weekend in the nfl would pay for full seasons,sx,mx and gp series. Cant compare the sports.
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ando
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ando 1/12/2019 3:05pm
1/12/2019 3:05pm
mx43 wrote:
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the...
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the riders need someone in their corner. They are treated like entertainers and tossed to the side at a moments notice. Most riders pay out of pocket for their own Medical insurance. They pay large entry fees with little in return as far as purse money. This sport is not healthy environment and will continue to decline unless riders take a stand. RISEUP.
They are entertainers
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 1/12/2019 3:08pm
1/12/2019 3:08pm
mx43 wrote:
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the...
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the riders need someone in their corner. They are treated like entertainers and tossed to the side at a moments notice. Most riders pay out of pocket for their own Medical insurance. They pay large entry fees with little in return as far as purse money. This sport is not healthy environment and will continue to decline unless riders take a stand. RISEUP.
So, you aren’t pro union, but you just think that the racers/entertainers should get all the benefits that have arisen primarily because of the existence of unions....

Makes sense.
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JustMX
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JustMX 1/12/2019 3:21pm
1/12/2019 3:21pm
mx43 wrote:
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the...
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the riders need someone in their corner. They are treated like entertainers and tossed to the side at a moments notice. Most riders pay out of pocket for their own Medical insurance. They pay large entry fees with little in return as far as purse money. This sport is not healthy environment and will continue to decline unless riders take a stand. RISEUP.
Oh crap,

Not this tired, worn out, rerererehashed pipe dream, again.
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mxb2
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mxb2 1/12/2019 3:43pm
1/12/2019 3:43pm
project racer wrote:
You should talk to Jimmy Eickel .
He robbed a bank lol. Great choice.
MX-LIFE.
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MX-LIFE. 1/12/2019 3:44pm
1/12/2019 3:44pm
mx43 wrote:
Yes of sponsor money he did not get that from Feld or Monster!.
MX-LIFE. wrote:
He still fucking underpaid..How much did Andrew Luck make last week???
neverwas wrote:
When SX has the audience of the NFL then you can compare the two.
That's my point..

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GeorgiePorgie 1/12/2019 3:54pm
1/12/2019 3:54pm
Link this to all the moto Instagram accounts. See how many pros give a fack. Not one.
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ando
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ando 1/12/2019 4:01pm
1/12/2019 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2019 4:02pm
So the concept of a union is to collectively represent the interests of a group of employees to an employer. Typically those interests revolve around money, and safety in more hazardous industries.

The first and most obvious question is - who are the employees and employers in this hypothetical scenario?

Second, unions gain their bargaining strength from the fact that they represent thousands of people who are doing the same or very similar jobs. Those jobs are providing essential or useful services, or are involved in weath creation of some kind. Also there is a recognition that people doing those jobs have a right to earn a minimum wage of some level (I’m not talking about government stipulated minimum wage, I mean a recognised wage/salary for a given job).

Competitive sport is a totally different scenario. It only has one purpose - to see who is the best. It has no intrinsic value other than what a person is prepared to pay to watch it. Now if you have 100M people interested in a sport there is a value proposition, which is centred around television rights and opportunity for businesses to put their marketing in front of those 100M faces. If you only have 100,000 people interested, then not so much.

What does this mean for motocross?

First, as a sport it’s much closer to the 100,000 people end of the spectrum than the 100M. So the overall value proposition is not that great.

Second, it’s hard to put a value on the worth of a rider or athlete. People all around the world flock to watch amateur sports of all kinds, which is saying that they aren’t bothered if the athletes are paid or not.

Third, because this a competitive pursuit, you don’t have a group of people doing the same thing. Whatever value there is in a rider is very much dictated by their ability (proven or potential) to win. It therefore becomes a problem to assign the same monetary value to everyone from 1st to 20th. Collective bargaining assumes same pay for the sme job.

Fourth, because this is a pretty loosely organised sport, the employer/employee relationship doesn’t lend itself to a union as such. Teams, factory or otherwise, engage riders, and then you have privateers. The “collective” part of a union arrangement doesn’t exist.

What I have seen in other sports, are players associations. They aren’t unions, but they get a seat at the table when it comes to discussing player salaries, rules, and other issues like player safety and well-being. Note that in all cases I know of, these associations came into being when the amount of money coming into their respective sports, mainly from TV rights, grew large enough that the players collectively wanted to do something about it AND that the governing bodies (who were receiving the fat TV rights payments) realised they were getting enough that they could start sharing some of it.

When that happens I suppose something may eventuate in motocross.

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mx43
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mx43 1/13/2019 10:03am
1/13/2019 10:03am
mx43 wrote:
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the...
Is it me or do the riders in this industry need someone to look out for them. I am not Pro union but I think the riders need someone in their corner. They are treated like entertainers and tossed to the side at a moments notice. Most riders pay out of pocket for their own Medical insurance. They pay large entry fees with little in return as far as purse money. This sport is not healthy environment and will continue to decline unless riders take a stand. RISEUP.
JustMX wrote:
Oh crap,

Not this tired, worn out, rerererehashed pipe dream, again.
Hey don’t blame me when you are stuck watching old Ronnie Mac videos on YouTube because there is nothing else to watch?
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mx43
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mx43 1/13/2019 10:07am
1/13/2019 10:07am
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
Link this to all the moto Instagram accounts. See how many pros give a fack. Not one.
Only because they afraid?
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mx43
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mx43 1/13/2019 10:09am
1/13/2019 10:09am
mx43 wrote:
Yes of sponsor money he did not get that from Feld or Monster!.
MX-LIFE. wrote:
He still fucking underpaid..How much did Andrew Luck make last week???
neverwas wrote:
When SX has the audience of the NFL then you can compare the two.
Don’t they sell out stadiums?
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MX-LIFE.
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MX-LIFE. 1/13/2019 12:23pm
1/13/2019 12:23pm
MX-LIFE. wrote:
He still fucking underpaid..How much did Andrew Luck make last week???
neverwas wrote:
When SX has the audience of the NFL then you can compare the two.
mx43 wrote:
Don’t they sell out stadiums?
So your saying the promotors of SX including Monster. Energy are paying well in pro payout in the finals every wknd and as the riders who are the show shouldn't demand more? If Malcolm was a stright up privateer and sistained that injury Saturday night how bad of situation financially would he be in? Oh and not have rich brother..
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slipdog
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slipdog 1/13/2019 12:40pm
1/13/2019 12:40pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Then quit talking and start a riders union. If you are going to talk the talk then you better walk the walk. What is wrong with...
Then quit talking and start a riders union. If you are going to talk the talk then you better walk the walk. What is wrong with the sport is guys like you who think they know what is wrong with the sport but have no clue. I think the sport looks pretty damn good.
idahokid235 wrote:
So caring about the riders welfare is wrong for the sport? seems to me its people like you who are bad for the sport
scott_nz wrote:
the fans can't start a riders union, only the riders can, and they have shown little to know interest in doing so over the years, with...
the fans can't start a riders union, only the riders can, and they have shown little to know interest in doing so over the years, with a brief shot at it in 95 with limited success,
There was a better attempt in '94 as well, I was involved in both. In the end, I was one of only a couple left standing as everyone else eventually pussed out and it all fizzled out.
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GeorgiePorgie 1/13/2019 12:57pm
1/13/2019 12:57pm
"Second, it’s hard to put a value on the worth of a rider or athlete."

In a unions eye, all members are equal. No member is better or worse than the next member. it's all based on seniority. So Reed should be top rate and allowed all the overtime he wants.


Anyone else see how/why union probably wouldn't work in motocross just based on this example?
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Motofinne
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Motofinne 1/13/2019 1:37pm
1/13/2019 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2019 1:40pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Then quit talking and start a riders union. If you are going to talk the talk then you better walk the walk. What is wrong with...
Then quit talking and start a riders union. If you are going to talk the talk then you better walk the walk. What is wrong with the sport is guys like you who think they know what is wrong with the sport but have no clue. I think the sport looks pretty damn good.
idahokid235 wrote:
So caring about the riders welfare is wrong for the sport? seems to me its people like you who are bad for the sport
scott_nz wrote:
the fans can't start a riders union, only the riders can, and they have shown little to know interest in doing so over the years, with...
the fans can't start a riders union, only the riders can, and they have shown little to know interest in doing so over the years, with a brief shot at it in 95 with limited success,
Spot on. This discussion is unfortunately just a waste of time as long as there is zero effort from the actual people that would benefit of it.

Look, how many "Go Fund Me's" do we see in a year? Don't get me wrong i have nothing against them but when the riders can't even insure themselves properly we shouldn't expect a riders union anytime soon (or ever).
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H4L
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H4L 1/13/2019 1:51pm
1/13/2019 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2019 1:56pm
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
"Second, it’s hard to put a value on the worth of a rider or athlete." In a unions eye, all members are equal. No member is...
"Second, it’s hard to put a value on the worth of a rider or athlete."

In a unions eye, all members are equal. No member is better or worse than the next member. it's all based on seniority. So Reed should be top rate and allowed all the overtime he wants.


Anyone else see how/why union probably wouldn't work in motocross just based on this example?
Not necessarily. When I was in the automotive union they had an apprentice minimum to journeyman wage depending on skill level. In my early 20's to mid 30's I negotiated over pay scale with the employer based on my performance. I believe it can be done with the right people in place, but would not be easy.
The NFL, MLB etc.. also have a minimum wage set for the athletes. Then it's up to the top tier athletes to negotiate their deals through a rep. once they're up. Like you see with guys like Lebron, Aaron Rogers, Tom Brady etc..
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CozMan
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CozMan 1/13/2019 1:55pm
1/13/2019 1:55pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2019 1:57pm
I didn't read anything from above, but I'll say that I HATE the concept of unions when it involves shit like "Well, teachers require 150 days off per year." or "Union folks demand XYZ fully funded insurance plan" because all it does is destroy small business and ruin the industry.

THAT SAID, I would LOVE to see MX/SX riders have a union that forces Feld to actually compensate their talent at some sort of a reasonable level and provide some world-class insurance for the inevitable injuries. Feld is cleaning house with ticket pricing/endorsements and is trickling down crumbs to the riders under the explanation "Well, the teams pay the riders - our money is just a bonus." What a sham.

The top talent actually PAYS Feld a fee to show up. Do you realize how back-assward that is? Feld would not have a series without Tomac/Roczen/et al showing up - it should be the exact opposite and Feld should be throwing money at those guys to guarantee they are on the gates.
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Lucifa.
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Lucifa. 1/13/2019 2:31pm
1/13/2019 2:31pm
CozMan wrote:
I didn't read anything from above, but I'll say that I HATE the concept of unions when it involves shit like "Well, teachers require 150 days...
I didn't read anything from above, but I'll say that I HATE the concept of unions when it involves shit like "Well, teachers require 150 days off per year." or "Union folks demand XYZ fully funded insurance plan" because all it does is destroy small business and ruin the industry.

THAT SAID, I would LOVE to see MX/SX riders have a union that forces Feld to actually compensate their talent at some sort of a reasonable level and provide some world-class insurance for the inevitable injuries. Feld is cleaning house with ticket pricing/endorsements and is trickling down crumbs to the riders under the explanation "Well, the teams pay the riders - our money is just a bonus." What a sham.

The top talent actually PAYS Feld a fee to show up. Do you realize how back-assward that is? Feld would not have a series without Tomac/Roczen/et al showing up - it should be the exact opposite and Feld should be throwing money at those guys to guarantee they are on the gates.
You should of read the above posts first as it would of saved you writing all that out.

Basically if the riders wanted a union, they would have organised one all ready.

This thread like the other 1000 Union threads on Vital are what the fan wants, not the riders.
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