Old-school goodies

ruy
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4091
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España, ES
1/3/2019 2:47am
Kit Noguchi



1
Bearuno
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5418
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Location
AU
1/3/2019 3:52am
BR8ES wrote:
I'd like to know more about that PCP single shock bike...
Do you want an accurate and honest appraisal about it's design and construction?

Because it may upset a you, and few other people.
1/3/2019 5:46am
Oldmxer95 wrote:
AHRMA361 & Newmann, Thank you so much for this information, it will definitely give me all of the info needed. Still not receiving the PM's, might...
AHRMA361 & Newmann,


Thank you so much for this information, it will definitely give me all of the info needed.


Still not receiving the PM's, might be stuck in some email filter somewhere.

PM's normally go to the email address you have set up to join Vital. Check your email, it's probably there.
BR8ES
Posts
1909
Joined
6/3/2018
Location
Bennett, CO, USA
1/3/2019 5:57am
BR8ES wrote:
I'd like to know more about that PCP single shock bike...
Bearuno wrote:
Do you want an accurate and honest appraisal about it's design and construction?

Because it may upset a you, and few other people.
Why would it be upsetting???? It is interesting for the sake of the era, don't expect it to be mind blowing and futuristic. So yes, spill the beans please.
1

The Shop

1/3/2019 6:16am
This was my favorite book as a kid. Michel Vaillant was a F1 driver, son of a car maker. On this book, Vaillante decided to get into the motorcycle industry and Michel was hired to develop the bikes.

I found this copy in mint shape last year and am now impatientit waiting for the day my son know how to read so I can give it to him.

Easy trivia: can you name the rider in the second picture?


2
Turbojez
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2419
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8/5/2015
Location
PL
1/3/2019 6:18am
Forty wrote:
Metzeler tires I miss them
They are alive and well in Europe!
752dad
Posts
601
Joined
11/24/2014
Location
Hartland, MI, USA
1/3/2019 7:36am
Reeder GasSprings

752dad
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601
Joined
11/24/2014
Location
Hartland, MI, USA
1/3/2019 7:39am

newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
1/3/2019 9:58am
Skunk Works linkage suspension.

1
Bearuno
Posts
5418
Joined
6/28/2014
Location
AU
1/3/2019 10:07pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2019 10:35pm
BR8ES wrote:
Why would it be upsetting???? It is interesting for the sake of the era, don't expect it to be mind blowing and futuristic. So yes, spill...
Why would it be upsetting???? It is interesting for the sake of the era, don't expect it to be mind blowing and futuristic. So yes, spill the beans please.
Simple, basic Maths / Geometry.

Look to the angle formed by the SA pivot, to lower shock mount, and top shock mount. Once that inside angle at the swingarm shock mount goes past a right angle, into an obtuse angle, you are into falling rate geometry. Now, suspension kinetics that rely on a single, basic triangle, don't have a huge ratio change, whichever way you are going, but going into falling rate on a two wheeler just sucks.

And, I'm pretty damned sure the shock they had, had no internal method / valving for positional damping increases - of which there are many ways to achieve, in later years, and, today.

A lot of mistakes were ( and still are) made with engineering, and, the 'Big Boys', who had no excuses ( eg : the first production versions of Kawasaki's Unitraks) showed just how they could royally f**ck things up - not just the little guys.

Hell, I learned my lesson in the mid 70s, when I severely laid down some shocks, having the inside angle going into ( well, further into - but in the 'opposite' 'clocking' direction compared to the PC set up) an obtuse angle. Talk about slamming through the final few inches of travel - it was the start of my back problems, I'm sure of it. Dizzy

You can look at suspension linkages as a succession of triangles, and their changes through various axis, and their interactions with each other.

As for the bracing on the swingarm : well, the small diameter of it goes well with the forces in terms of them being in tension, but the bracing finishes barely forward of the severe load area of the shock mount, plus, it looks like there is no cross over / joining of them. It can be fun and games having bracing that goes right to the SA pivot section, and as 'across' bracing, but it's perfectly doable. Even on a long travel dirt bike rear end.

The Husky Twin Shock rear suspension geometry of that era was very good (whereas, if you look to say, the dreadful shock geometry of the wonderous Gilera Twin that Ruy put pictures up of, and, many of his [I assume] beloved Montesas) - this Single shock version's geometry would rank 'down' there with the 'worst of'. But, there'll be some here that will get upset with that, and claim it was wonderful. Bullshit to that.

As an aside, the final few years 'White' frame Huskies, with the ITC Ohlins, Progressive springs, an even better shock / swingarm / main frame geometry, I / Many rank as being darned near 2 shock perfection. I've mate with a couple, with damping adjustable shocks, and they are truly great. If any of you have early copies of Dirt Rider magazine, where they graphed Suspension Geometries, Shock Damping ( via dyno ) and Spring Rates / Progression, you'll see the reasons why the Husky rear end could be so good - plus see how all over the place Single Shock linkages leverage ratios were.

ruy
Posts
4091
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Location
España, ES
1/4/2019 3:23am
Also Julie Wood from Michel Vaillant.




















2
BR8ES
Posts
1909
Joined
6/3/2018
Location
Bennett, CO, USA
1/4/2019 11:02am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2019 11:04am
BR8ES wrote:
Why would it be upsetting???? It is interesting for the sake of the era, don't expect it to be mind blowing and futuristic. So yes, spill...
Why would it be upsetting???? It is interesting for the sake of the era, don't expect it to be mind blowing and futuristic. So yes, spill the beans please.
Bearuno wrote:
Simple, basic Maths / Geometry. Look to the angle formed by the SA pivot, to lower shock mount, and top shock mount. Once that inside angle...
Simple, basic Maths / Geometry.

Look to the angle formed by the SA pivot, to lower shock mount, and top shock mount. Once that inside angle at the swingarm shock mount goes past a right angle, into an obtuse angle, you are into falling rate geometry. Now, suspension kinetics that rely on a single, basic triangle, don't have a huge ratio change, whichever way you are going, but going into falling rate on a two wheeler just sucks.

And, I'm pretty damned sure the shock they had, had no internal method / valving for positional damping increases - of which there are many ways to achieve, in later years, and, today.

A lot of mistakes were ( and still are) made with engineering, and, the 'Big Boys', who had no excuses ( eg : the first production versions of Kawasaki's Unitraks) showed just how they could royally f**ck things up - not just the little guys.

Hell, I learned my lesson in the mid 70s, when I severely laid down some shocks, having the inside angle going into ( well, further into - but in the 'opposite' 'clocking' direction compared to the PC set up) an obtuse angle. Talk about slamming through the final few inches of travel - it was the start of my back problems, I'm sure of it. Dizzy

You can look at suspension linkages as a succession of triangles, and their changes through various axis, and their interactions with each other.

As for the bracing on the swingarm : well, the small diameter of it goes well with the forces in terms of them being in tension, but the bracing finishes barely forward of the severe load area of the shock mount, plus, it looks like there is no cross over / joining of them. It can be fun and games having bracing that goes right to the SA pivot section, and as 'across' bracing, but it's perfectly doable. Even on a long travel dirt bike rear end.

The Husky Twin Shock rear suspension geometry of that era was very good (whereas, if you look to say, the dreadful shock geometry of the wonderous Gilera Twin that Ruy put pictures up of, and, many of his [I assume] beloved Montesas) - this Single shock version's geometry would rank 'down' there with the 'worst of'. But, there'll be some here that will get upset with that, and claim it was wonderful. Bullshit to that.

As an aside, the final few years 'White' frame Huskies, with the ITC Ohlins, Progressive springs, an even better shock / swingarm / main frame geometry, I / Many rank as being darned near 2 shock perfection. I've mate with a couple, with damping adjustable shocks, and they are truly great. If any of you have early copies of Dirt Rider magazine, where they graphed Suspension Geometries, Shock Damping ( via dyno ) and Spring Rates / Progression, you'll see the reasons why the Husky rear end could be so good - plus see how all over the place Single Shock linkages leverage ratios were.

I enjoy your intellect and experience, top notch and trustworthy. A lot of stuff from that era was horrible, even today stuff doesn't work. But... for the era, stuff like that was cool to see, especially now with all the time that has passed. I enjoy the history and chances people took..
1/4/2019 12:59pm Edited Date/Time 1/4/2019 1:00pm
newmann wrote:
Skunk Works linkage suspension. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/08/06/28637/s1200_1097955_10151790858105909_299645739_n.jpg[/img]
Skunk Works linkage suspension.

That picture was taken at "The Pit" in Milton, Florida.

I was there the day it was taken and actually rode that bike. It's hard to see, but in addition to the obvious suspension changes it also had one of their 38mm Mikuni kits on it. Retained the piston port, no reed valve. My 76 had the same rear setup and carb kit.

Worked great in a straight line, not so much when leaned over. CG was a "tad" high.

I've said it many times. If those guys had been based in California instead of Destin, FL they would have been heralded as evil geniuses.
Falcon
Posts
12433
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA, USA
1/4/2019 1:48pm
Sheriff245 wrote:
This was my favorite book as a kid. Michel Vaillant was a F1 driver, son of a car maker. On this book, Vaillante decided to get...
This was my favorite book as a kid. Michel Vaillant was a F1 driver, son of a car maker. On this book, Vaillante decided to get into the motorcycle industry and Michel was hired to develop the bikes.

I found this copy in mint shape last year and am now impatientit waiting for the day my son know how to read so I can give it to him.

Easy trivia: can you name the rider in the second picture?


Joel Robert?
kaptkaos
Posts
1087
Joined
11/17/2015
Location
Miami, FL, USA
1/4/2019 2:31pm
Elbows wrote:
81 Cr’s with that snow plow number plate.
I had one!

What a POS that bike was!
kaptkaos
Posts
1087
Joined
11/17/2015
Location
Miami, FL, USA
1/4/2019 2:38pm
Wandell wrote:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2aginSY][img]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4913/44149041400_9b0759c36e_z.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2aginSY]JTadd2[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/160389956@N03/]Tracie Asbell[/url], on Flickr



JTadd2 by Tracie Asbell, on Flickr


Man, the JT catalog....how I used to love that thing! Gear matched the bikes, and had bike brands plastered all over them, those were the good ole days. I loved my Scott.hard plastic boots and my Hannah Flak Jacket!

Blue Honda seats, red engines, those were beautiful, and Yamahas were Yellow and black. KTMs and Huskies were expensive POS's and big loud Maico's with floppy fenders and poor jetting ran around the senior class!

newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
1/8/2019 4:49pm
NOS FMF Porky Head for the early CR125M!



2
Tonynz
Posts
847
Joined
9/21/2014
Location
NZ
1/8/2019 5:15pm

2
CPR
Posts
6922
Joined
10/4/2018
Location
AU
1/9/2019 4:44am
Aussies will appreciate this brand, not sure if it made it overseas?

2
Elsie88
Posts
23
Joined
1/31/2018
Location
Parker, CO, USA
1/10/2019 7:16am
newmann wrote:
NOS FMF Porky Head for the early CR125M! [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/01/08/316717/s1200_29F8682D_EE2F_4A31_A3DA_C0B864FA53DF.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/01/08/316718/s1200_E4F9293E_245C_4A0E_A731_64CD47A7342D.jpg[/img]
NOS FMF Porky Head for the early CR125M!



Oh yeah! That head is rad! How much is something like that worth now a days?
Moto520
Posts
3636
Joined
2/4/2013
Location
Schaumburg, IL, USA
1/10/2019 7:27am Edited Date/Time 1/10/2019 7:28am
I think you guys pretty much hit them all except: Motovideo motocross VHS videos including Rich Johnson's Profile of a Champion.
slipdog
Posts
10054
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Nor Cal, CA, USA
1/10/2019 7:43am
I have a few of these from the late 80's


RM Mike
Posts
201
Joined
10/2/2011
Location
Oakhurst, CA, USA
1/10/2019 7:46am
Cross-up swingarms were the hot setup when I was in H.S.
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
1/10/2019 8:20am Edited Date/Time 1/10/2019 8:26am
Red Line XR75 chromoly frame kit.



PK Racing XR75 monoshock frame kit



DG XR75 Monoshock frame kit



C&J XR75 chromoly frame kit



C&J JWRP (Jeff Ward Racing Products ) chromoly Mini Elsinore Frame Kits/ Complete bikes




DG/Pro Fab CR125M chromoly frame







Yes, I have multiples of each. Yes, I may have a problem.






3
newmann
Posts
24438
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4/1/2008
Location
USA
1/10/2019 8:24am
DG pic didn't seem to load above???


Bearuno
Posts
5418
Joined
6/28/2014
Location
AU
1/10/2019 8:34am
newmann wrote:
NOS FMF Porky Head for the early CR125M! [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/01/08/316717/s1200_29F8682D_EE2F_4A31_A3DA_C0B864FA53DF.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/01/08/316718/s1200_E4F9293E_245C_4A0E_A731_64CD47A7342D.jpg[/img]
NOS FMF Porky Head for the early CR125M!



Was it WEBCO that did the Copper Heads?

I don't recall if they were conventionally finned, or Radial , or Porcupines - but I Do recall that they were bloody Heavy!Woohoo
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
1/10/2019 10:03am Edited Date/Time 1/10/2019 10:04am
newmann wrote:
NOS FMF Porky Head for the early CR125M! [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/01/08/316717/s1200_29F8682D_EE2F_4A31_A3DA_C0B864FA53DF.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/01/08/316718/s1200_E4F9293E_245C_4A0E_A731_64CD47A7342D.jpg[/img]
NOS FMF Porky Head for the early CR125M!



Bearuno wrote:
Was it WEBCO that did the Copper Heads? I don't recall if they were conventionally finned, or Radial , or Porcupines - but I Do recall...
Was it WEBCO that did the Copper Heads?

I don't recall if they were conventionally finned, or Radial , or Porcupines - but I Do recall that they were bloody Heavy!Woohoo
The Webco was heaviest of all the aftermarket heads (funny, just discussing this in Old School) right along with the extruded 17 fin DG heads but it was cast aluminum, not copper. Marty Smiths early RC125 has a copper head that reportedly weighed a lot.

Man o man at the aftermarket heads they used to have for the early CR. That little bike supported so many hop up shops in the 70's. A few here from the interwebz. Webco is bottom right in the pic of five heads.





1
1/10/2019 10:06am
Did anyone mention Visor Vu?
Turbojez
Posts
2419
Joined
8/5/2015
Location
PL
1/10/2019 10:13am

1/10/2019 10:35am
Gatorade tastes way better in a glass bottle. It was noticeable
1

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