THE MASSACRE At Red Bud. Why It Happened. How We Prevent It From Ever Happening Again,

joeellis
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12/21/2018 10:55am
NorCal 50+ wrote:
If a Euro wins the SX title next year (Musquin), the world is going to stop spinning on its axis.
I would agree, but Musquin and Roczen are American. Tongue
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flykay
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12/21/2018 11:18am
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! Smile

To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the riders when they say that the track "was not what they are used to" or "the track was not the same as our Red Bud from our national 4th of July" etc. I just read an article in MXA with Aaron Plessinger, whom I am a great fan of, where he is quoted just "The track was a different Red Bud. I have never seen the Red Bud track like this - ever. It was European Style".
(Above quote was Aarons answer on question; "What happened at the Motocross Des Nations")

I just cannot believe that these professionals say these things. What we teach kids at MX schools is that the track is the same for everyone that lines up on the gate.
I mean, even if Aaron was not familiar to the track, I have a hard time believing that Prado was more familiar... (for you who don´t know, Spain has mostly hard pack tracks and Prado is 17 years at age (with reference to experience)).

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flykay
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12/21/2018 11:20am
And to ad to my post; What does Aaron know of European tracks?
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12/21/2018 11:27am
You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I...
You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I watched practice/qualifying trackside Saturday and The Race Sunday - WE weren't even in the same race. OR gear for that matter ( my 22yr. old son pointed that one out to me). The way we rode was laughable AT BEST compared to the Euro's- PERIOD.
Prado impressed the hell out of me, that dude rides with alot of strength. Discovered afterwards he is a small dude. Unreal talent and technique! And a broken shoulder a month or so earlier I believe? WOW!
ruy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/12/21/311807/s1200_43448920_1887341791387356_354140342778751459_n.jpg[/img] No, Prado injured an elbow before Argentina before the start of the MX2 season and also hurt a little on the back after the crash...

No, Prado injured an elbow before Argentina before the start of the MX2 season and also hurt a little on the back after the crash with Jonass in Turkey, in Red Bud what happened is that he almost did not train anything week before for so many acts of celebration and interviews in España after getting the title of MX2, and that's why he had a bad Saturday because of that inactivity, but Saturday's activity helped him recover on Sunday, next year in Assen he does not commit that inactivity error,and Prado will crush Herlings in MXDN 2019.


Your last sentence made me spit out my coffee.
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The Shop

peltier626
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12/21/2018 12:54pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
If a Euro wins the SX title next year (Musquin), the world is going to stop spinning on its axis.
Don't forget about Ferrandis too.
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joeellis
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12/21/2018 1:19pm
flykay wrote:
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! :) To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the...
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! Smile

To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the riders when they say that the track "was not what they are used to" or "the track was not the same as our Red Bud from our national 4th of July" etc. I just read an article in MXA with Aaron Plessinger, whom I am a great fan of, where he is quoted just "The track was a different Red Bud. I have never seen the Red Bud track like this - ever. It was European Style".
(Above quote was Aarons answer on question; "What happened at the Motocross Des Nations")

I just cannot believe that these professionals say these things. What we teach kids at MX schools is that the track is the same for everyone that lines up on the gate.
I mean, even if Aaron was not familiar to the track, I have a hard time believing that Prado was more familiar... (for you who don´t know, Spain has mostly hard pack tracks and Prado is 17 years at age (with reference to experience)).

I agree with you and maybe that mindset helped defeat them before the event even got started. I herad Jack Niclaus comment once that he loved showing up the first day of practice for a US Open, because he knew how difficult the course would be set up. He would walk around and listen to his competitors complaining and knew he wouldn't have to consider them real competition that week.
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joeellis
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12/21/2018 1:24pm
flykay wrote:
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! :) To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the...
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! Smile

To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the riders when they say that the track "was not what they are used to" or "the track was not the same as our Red Bud from our national 4th of July" etc. I just read an article in MXA with Aaron Plessinger, whom I am a great fan of, where he is quoted just "The track was a different Red Bud. I have never seen the Red Bud track like this - ever. It was European Style".
(Above quote was Aarons answer on question; "What happened at the Motocross Des Nations")

I just cannot believe that these professionals say these things. What we teach kids at MX schools is that the track is the same for everyone that lines up on the gate.
I mean, even if Aaron was not familiar to the track, I have a hard time believing that Prado was more familiar... (for you who don´t know, Spain has mostly hard pack tracks and Prado is 17 years at age (with reference to experience)).

joeellis wrote:
I agree with you and maybe that mindset helped defeat them before the event even got started. I herad Jack Niclaus comment once that he loved...
I agree with you and maybe that mindset helped defeat them before the event even got started. I herad Jack Niclaus comment once that he loved showing up the first day of practice for a US Open, because he knew how difficult the course would be set up. He would walk around and listen to his competitors complaining and knew he wouldn't have to consider them real competition that week.
I will give Plessinger credit though. When asked after the event if the Europeans were better at the moment, he answered yes.
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flykay
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12/21/2018 1:27pm
joeellis wrote:
I agree with you and maybe that mindset helped defeat them before the event even got started. I herad Jack Niclaus comment once that he loved...
I agree with you and maybe that mindset helped defeat them before the event even got started. I herad Jack Niclaus comment once that he loved showing up the first day of practice for a US Open, because he knew how difficult the course would be set up. He would walk around and listen to his competitors complaining and knew he wouldn't have to consider them real competition that week.
Good point Joeellis!

Forty
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12/21/2018 3:13pm
flykay wrote:
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! :) To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the...
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! Smile

To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the riders when they say that the track "was not what they are used to" or "the track was not the same as our Red Bud from our national 4th of July" etc. I just read an article in MXA with Aaron Plessinger, whom I am a great fan of, where he is quoted just "The track was a different Red Bud. I have never seen the Red Bud track like this - ever. It was European Style".
(Above quote was Aarons answer on question; "What happened at the Motocross Des Nations")

I just cannot believe that these professionals say these things. What we teach kids at MX schools is that the track is the same for everyone that lines up on the gate.
I mean, even if Aaron was not familiar to the track, I have a hard time believing that Prado was more familiar... (for you who don´t know, Spain has mostly hard pack tracks and Prado is 17 years at age (with reference to experience)).

joeellis wrote:
I agree with you and maybe that mindset helped defeat them before the event even got started. I herad Jack Niclaus comment once that he loved...
I agree with you and maybe that mindset helped defeat them before the event even got started. I herad Jack Niclaus comment once that he loved showing up the first day of practice for a US Open, because he knew how difficult the course would be set up. He would walk around and listen to his competitors complaining and knew he wouldn't have to consider them real competition that week.
joeellis wrote:
I will give Plessinger credit though. When asked after the event if the Europeans were better at the moment, he answered yes.
Yeah...it's cool that he was honest but what could he say. I like that there are no excuses coming from him.

He had a great ride going for awhile.
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moto348
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12/21/2018 4:58pm
The on-track training prior to the MXoN for 2019 should be at Straight Arrows MX in Grantsburg, WI. The sand there makes Southwick look like a Speedway.
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mccread
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12/22/2018 5:14am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2018 5:17am
America need to realise winning the MXDN doesn’t prove you are better than the world championship or the “Euros.” It’s country race and Europe’s best are not racing in one team. Stop using the race as an AMA marketing tool to sell the myth that AMA racing is superior to MXGP and accept the race for what it is, a unique event that celebrates the sport. You aren’t actually racing “Europe.” Racing the actual world championship is totally different.

France don’t have the best riders in the world because they win the MXoN, and no American media ever say that, unless US wins. Let’s keep it in perspective, USA will win often again because they are great riders and the race gives them a huge advantage over other countries, they will always have the advantage in that event because they have more riders to choose from having such a huge country over the smaller nations they compete against. There’s a reason America never pick three riders from one state (the size of regular country) it would be harder to compete for the win.

If America want a Europe v USA team race, make it happen.... but then it would be much harder to win than a Nations team race because USA lose their advantage over the “Euros.”

And if a US rider wants to show he’s the best mx rider in the world, win the MXGP world championship, it’s the only way to show it, not the MXoN, US Nationals or a US GP that gives Americans the advantage every time, the world championship is the measuring stick, no other series.


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ruy
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12/22/2018 5:36am
flykay wrote:
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! :) To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the...
This thread sure has a lot of good reading! Smile

To me, whats is the most annoying in saying and writing, is actually quotes from the riders when they say that the track "was not what they are used to" or "the track was not the same as our Red Bud from our national 4th of July" etc. I just read an article in MXA with Aaron Plessinger, whom I am a great fan of, where he is quoted just "The track was a different Red Bud. I have never seen the Red Bud track like this - ever. It was European Style".
(Above quote was Aarons answer on question; "What happened at the Motocross Des Nations")

I just cannot believe that these professionals say these things. What we teach kids at MX schools is that the track is the same for everyone that lines up on the gate.
I mean, even if Aaron was not familiar to the track, I have a hard time believing that Prado was more familiar... (for you who don´t know, Spain has mostly hard pack tracks and Prado is 17 years at age (with reference to experience)).

Prado is Spanish, but Spain is very diverse, he is from Lugo, in Galicia, which has a climate like England, it rains a lot, in winter it is cold and the summer is mild with little sun.It is not what one thinks of typical Spanish

Here in Lugo as a child he trained on a circuit,named Rubias of littel sand, which was never deep mud.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/JorgePrado61FansClub/photos/?tab=album&albu…

Then since at age twelve until seventeen, he has lived in Lommel, that's why he is a sand specialist, but mud has never been the best thing for him, nor does hard earth work very well for him , but since he has been living in Italy since the end of last year he has improved a lot in hard terrain.
1
ruy
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12/22/2018 5:39am
You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I...
You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I watched practice/qualifying trackside Saturday and The Race Sunday - WE weren't even in the same race. OR gear for that matter ( my 22yr. old son pointed that one out to me). The way we rode was laughable AT BEST compared to the Euro's- PERIOD.
Prado impressed the hell out of me, that dude rides with alot of strength. Discovered afterwards he is a small dude. Unreal talent and technique! And a broken shoulder a month or so earlier I believe? WOW!
ruy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/12/21/311807/s1200_43448920_1887341791387356_354140342778751459_n.jpg[/img] No, Prado injured an elbow before Argentina before the start of the MX2 season and also hurt a little on the back after the crash...

No, Prado injured an elbow before Argentina before the start of the MX2 season and also hurt a little on the back after the crash with Jonass in Turkey, in Red Bud what happened is that he almost did not train anything week before for so many acts of celebration and interviews in España after getting the title of MX2, and that's why he had a bad Saturday because of that inactivity, but Saturday's activity helped him recover on Sunday, next year in Assen he does not commit that inactivity error,and Prado will crush Herlings in MXDN 2019.


Your last sentence made me spit out my coffee.
The same happened to Plessinger in Red Bud, but instead of coffee, it was sand what he spit.
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ATKpilot99
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Lake Geneva, WI US
12/22/2018 6:12am
mccread wrote:
America need to realise winning the MXDN doesn’t prove you are better than the world championship or the “Euros.” It’s country race and Europe’s best are...
America need to realise winning the MXDN doesn’t prove you are better than the world championship or the “Euros.” It’s country race and Europe’s best are not racing in one team. Stop using the race as an AMA marketing tool to sell the myth that AMA racing is superior to MXGP and accept the race for what it is, a unique event that celebrates the sport. You aren’t actually racing “Europe.” Racing the actual world championship is totally different.

France don’t have the best riders in the world because they win the MXoN, and no American media ever say that, unless US wins. Let’s keep it in perspective, USA will win often again because they are great riders and the race gives them a huge advantage over other countries, they will always have the advantage in that event because they have more riders to choose from having such a huge country over the smaller nations they compete against. There’s a reason America never pick three riders from one state (the size of regular country) it would be harder to compete for the win.

If America want a Europe v USA team race, make it happen.... but then it would be much harder to win than a Nations team race because USA lose their advantage over the “Euros.”

And if a US rider wants to show he’s the best mx rider in the world, win the MXGP world championship, it’s the only way to show it, not the MXoN, US Nationals or a US GP that gives Americans the advantage every time, the world championship is the measuring stick, no other series.


We heard you the 1st 1000 times mccread.
12/22/2018 6:34am
I agree on all. But, Shit I’d like to have a team picked before budds that way they know
Kenny Lingus
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12/22/2018 6:55am
It all went South when Kawi and Tomac decided to use an untested bike. The subsequent DNF sent the proverbial snowball rolling down the mountain. Not only were we out rode but out gamed as well. Not picking inside gates, lining up on wrong color grates, muddy tires on the start, expecting the track to be AMA like not GP style are all things that managers, man friends, mechanics and teams dropped the ball on. Putting all the blame on the riders is a bit of a cop out in my eyes.
3
peltier626
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12/22/2018 7:38am
This thread even made racerhead. The powers at be are hearing, let's hope they are listening.
12/22/2018 9:49am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2018 9:58am
Legitimizes the sport as well......


Also these lap times comparisons don’t mean spit. if they didn’t even track lap times you’d never believe that they were that close. Because.....it’s a race. Who cares about lap times. All I care about is the checkered flag. You wanna calculate deficits then calculate it after the flag flies. The rest of laps don’t mean _____.
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CPR
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AU
12/22/2018 12:35pm
Not sure why you guys would want to bring your military tactics into MXdN prep, I mean when was the last time you won a war?
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nate 415
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Fort Wayne, IN US
12/22/2018 1:09pm
Flip109 wrote:
Well if it didnt piss out of the sky for two days leading up to redbud, and make it a fucking epic GP track that fell...
Well if it didnt piss out of the sky for two days leading up to redbud, and make it a fucking epic GP track that fell right into the hands of the sneaky GP riders, we were going to be first or second to France only. That is a fact. You really think Glen Coldenhoff as great as he was that day could come over here and take our national championship with ease? No. Actually none of them could except Herlings and maybe TC and they are the absolute best they have in that series. So while it looks like we have fallen behind because we got waxed on a very sloppy “euro” redbud track, we are not all that far behind. If TC retired next year and Herlings went to fast and caught flight and went to the moon, all of a sudden the GPs don’t look so much stronger anymore. Hell last year at the usgp Tomac actually beat Herlings one moto and also easily disposed of former champs febvre and gajser in the process. Now I know this would not happen on a regular GP track so easily, but it was still an outdoor mx track few had ridden on. Also fricking RJ hampshire goes 1-1 against all the mx2 riders in that race and had never even won at an outdoor national. That is no fluke. So while at times it seems they are light years ahead of us, they really are not. People just like to panic. Our days of the old school hero’s and most recent domination with guys like RV, RC, and JS are long gone. When Tomac is on he’s untouchable but he just doesn’t always show up, esp when the pressure is monumental. So that’s what we are dealing with. The GPs have Herlings and with him it really looks lopsided, but he’s the exception not the rule.
Spot on. Thank you for reading my mind
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2
12/22/2018 1:23pm
Oh well, I love the scientific approach to this topic Smile
bsharkey
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Marysville, WA US
12/23/2018 9:14am
How about making the mxon one of the regular races in the mxgp series and early enough in the year so our guys are on there game and not in cool down mode or getting ready for SX. Maybe sometime in aug. Def not oct.
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12/23/2018 9:20am
joeellis wrote:
I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...
I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.
You should've included Tommy Searle -- 'cause Tomac sure couldn't find a way around him.
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flykay
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12/23/2018 9:46am
ruy wrote:
Prado is Spanish, but Spain is very diverse, he is from Lugo, in Galicia, which has a climate like England, it rains a lot, in winter...
Prado is Spanish, but Spain is very diverse, he is from Lugo, in Galicia, which has a climate like England, it rains a lot, in winter it is cold and the summer is mild with little sun.It is not what one thinks of typical Spanish

Here in Lugo as a child he trained on a circuit,named Rubias of littel sand, which was never deep mud.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/JorgePrado61FansClub/photos/?tab=album&albu…

Then since at age twelve until seventeen, he has lived in Lommel, that's why he is a sand specialist, but mud has never been the best thing for him, nor does hard earth work very well for him , but since he has been living in Italy since the end of last year he has improved a lot in hard terrain.
Thanks for the good info on Prado ruy! Smile
Yes, with his speed I understand that he has ridden alot of other tracks then hardpack tracks. I just wanted to make a point that he and most other European riders did not know the Red Bud track of the race, better then the US riders.
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joeellis
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12/23/2018 10:28am
Legitimizes the sport as well...... Also these lap times comparisons don’t mean spit. if they didn’t even track lap times you’d never believe that they were...
Legitimizes the sport as well......


Also these lap times comparisons don’t mean spit. if they didn’t even track lap times you’d never believe that they were that close. Because.....it’s a race. Who cares about lap times. All I care about is the checkered flag. You wanna calculate deficits then calculate it after the flag flies. The rest of laps don’t mean _____.
Lap times mean just as much as bs opinions. Have a good day.
joeellis
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12/23/2018 10:31am
CPR wrote:
Not sure why you guys would want to bring your military tactics into MXdN prep, I mean when was the last time you won a war?
The military comparison should never be compared to sports in general, but not for the reason you're sarcastically implying. Because lives are unfortunately lost in war. Maybe you should answer your own question because your country is normally our Allie in war. Have a good day.
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joeellis
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12/23/2018 10:47am
joeellis wrote:
I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...
I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.
You should've included Tommy Searle -- 'cause Tomac sure couldn't find a way around him.
I could have included Tommy had I dug deeper into the finishers and even more had I not mainly just compared Tomac to the top finishers.

I'm not referring to you with this comment, but it's funny how others offer opinions on why the American team faired so poorly without any way to justify that opinion but will criticize lap times that are at least an indicator. Were the other 5 teams simply superior? Did the Americans not give it their best for a thousand different reasons, such as; no pay, whining about the track being different, they just don't care, etc.? Opinions are no more revealing or even as much so as lap times.

The Americans had their butts handed to them by 5 other Nations. That's the bottom line.
1
mxb2
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Bowie, MD US
12/23/2018 10:53am
joeellis wrote:
I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...
I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.
You should've included Tommy Searle -- 'cause Tomac sure couldn't find a way around him.
You really think searle is better than tomac, and glenn is better than guys he beat. They had a great day but to think they could beat eli in a series is funny.
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12/23/2018 11:28am
This is What I beliwve, most has to do with the bike set up, we saw That when RV CAME TO EUROPE, Completely wrong direction with suspension etc, Could not believe my eyes when I saw him riding over here.
Next Year in assen Will be very Difficult also for the usa, deep sand with ruts.
Must come early to Holland , and make a good test with help from the teams over here.

Something else, Mitch payton is not anymore with team usa, I understand because not his riders are there, but I believe his influence was very big.
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