THE MASSACRE At Red Bud. Why It Happened. How We Prevent It From Ever Happening Again,

kb228 wrote:

& tomac won more than 1/2 the supercrosses and more than half the outdoors along with the title two years in a row. They share the...

& tomac won more than 1/2 the supercrosses and more than half the outdoors along with the title two years in a row. They share the title dude. Herlings is the guy for outdoors, tomac is the guy for sx and in good conditions can hang with herlings outdoors.

Nobody is discrediting anybody. Theyre all fast as hell. Id be willing to bet pre injury roczen could have hung with herlings outdoors too.

Chill bro. Dont be a sensitive boi when other people have differing opinions than you.

theprizefighter wrote:

The U.S. lost because the current crop of GP riders are faster outdoors and it’s as simple as that.

kb228 wrote:

Well he didnt earn that name so idk why he would say that. Not like he won sx and outdoors and he didnt sweep mxon. Till...

Well he didnt earn that name so idk why he would say that. Not like he won sx and outdoors and he didnt sweep mxon. Till that happens its multiple fmotp

RichardLoots wrote:

he didnt earn it ? hahaha because he doesnt race SX ... hahaha cool story dude Hamilton doesnt race NASCAR ... how does that work...

he didnt earn it ? hahaha because he doesnt race SX ... hahaha cool story dude

Hamilton doesnt race NASCAR ... how does that work ?? is Hamilton FMOTP ?

and who did ? Tomac your MX national champ ?
or Anderson , because he won SX ?
Roczen his comeback good enough to be FMOTP ?


who did better as Herlings in 2018 ?? he won 17 out of 19 GP's and 33 out of 38 moto's

kb228 wrote:

& tomac won more than 1/2 the supercrosses and more than half the outdoors along with the title two years in a row. They share the...

& tomac won more than 1/2 the supercrosses and more than half the outdoors along with the title two years in a row. They share the title dude. Herlings is the guy for outdoors, tomac is the guy for sx and in good conditions can hang with herlings outdoors.

Nobody is discrediting anybody. Theyre all fast as hell. Id be willing to bet pre injury roczen could have hung with herlings outdoors too.

Chill bro. Dont be a sensitive boi when other people have differing opinions than you.

RichardLoots wrote:

he didnt earn it ? hahaha because he doesnt race SX ... hahaha cool story dude Hamilton doesnt race NASCAR ... how does that work...

he didnt earn it ? hahaha because he doesnt race SX ... hahaha cool story dude

Hamilton doesnt race NASCAR ... how does that work ?? is Hamilton FMOTP ?

and who did ? Tomac your MX national champ ?
or Anderson , because he won SX ?
Roczen his comeback good enough to be FMOTP ?


who did better as Herlings in 2018 ?? he won 17 out of 19 GP's and 33 out of 38 moto's

kb228 wrote:

& tomac won more than 1/2 the supercrosses and more than half the outdoors along with the title two years in a row. They share the...

& tomac won more than 1/2 the supercrosses and more than half the outdoors along with the title two years in a row. They share the title dude. Herlings is the guy for outdoors, tomac is the guy for sx and in good conditions can hang with herlings outdoors.

Nobody is discrediting anybody. Theyre all fast as hell. Id be willing to bet pre injury roczen could have hung with herlings outdoors too.

Chill bro. Dont be a sensitive boi when other people have differing opinions than you.

RichardLoots wrote:

so Tomac is the guy for SX as the FMOTP ... when was last time he won a SX title ? how does that work for...

so Tomac is the guy for SX as the FMOTP ... when was last time he won a SX title ? how does that work for you ?

dude dont act like you have any respect or give any credit to MXGP and its riders .

your comments on here tell a totally different story ...

i am chill , you got a problem with a lot of shit .. thats obvious

joeellis wrote:

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.

theprizefighter wrote:

The U.S. lost because the current crop of GP riders are faster outdoors and it’s as simple as that.

joeellis wrote:

Possibly, but if you use the criteria I presented above, Tomac is right there with Herlings and Cairoli who are the 2 best Europeans day in...

Possibly, but if you use the criteria I presented above, Tomac is right there with Herlings and Cairoli who are the 2 best Europeans day in and day out. I still feel that if all the top riders raced the same series head-to-head the Americans would fair as well as anyone, but that will never happen unfortunately. The Americans had a very sub-par year on home turf. This is what has everyone up in the air, but if you go back to some of the prior Nations, unusual circumstances hindered the American cause (as well as other nations). Martin broke his foot. Webb toppled over in a very slow off camber rut that was incredibly deep. Anderson was landed on after finishing 1st in Race 1.

The talent worldwide is amazing. In a 2 day event, I still contend that true results aren't determined. Every nation who sends a team should be proud of their competitors. Slamming home riders because they don't win every year is absurd. That is going to change from time-to-time. America still has more wins by a large margin. We should be proud of that and not assume we will win every year. That is just unrealistic. As long as the riders chosen give it there all (and I believe they did), we have no right to pass judgement imo.

ATKpilot99 wrote:

He has an app on his phone that alerts him if anyone says anything remotely disrespectful about Herlings anywhere on the web.

theprizefighter wrote:

The U.S. lost because the current crop of GP riders are faster outdoors and it’s as simple as that.

joeellis wrote:

Possibly, but if you use the criteria I presented above, Tomac is right there with Herlings and Cairoli who are the 2 best Europeans day in...

Possibly, but if you use the criteria I presented above, Tomac is right there with Herlings and Cairoli who are the 2 best Europeans day in and day out. I still feel that if all the top riders raced the same series head-to-head the Americans would fair as well as anyone, but that will never happen unfortunately. The Americans had a very sub-par year on home turf. This is what has everyone up in the air, but if you go back to some of the prior Nations, unusual circumstances hindered the American cause (as well as other nations). Martin broke his foot. Webb toppled over in a very slow off camber rut that was incredibly deep. Anderson was landed on after finishing 1st in Race 1.

The talent worldwide is amazing. In a 2 day event, I still contend that true results aren't determined. Every nation who sends a team should be proud of their competitors. Slamming home riders because they don't win every year is absurd. That is going to change from time-to-time. America still has more wins by a large margin. We should be proud of that and not assume we will win every year. That is just unrealistic. As long as the riders chosen give it there all (and I believe they did), we have no right to pass judgement imo.

theprizefighter wrote:

The numbers only mean so much. What matters most are results, and so I think a trend has been established enough to say that right now...

The numbers only mean so much. What matters most are results, and so I think a trend has been established enough to say that right now, the GP riders are faster outdoors. People are talking about ways to fix it, and I have a very simple answer: go faster. A half a second faster adds up over 30 minutes of racing.

Even Decoster acknowledged that the ama riders were outclassed and not as fast. The problem is speed, the symptoms are the losses.

keinz wrote:

Dude WW2 ended in 1945. Don't let's start WW3 from MXDN

theprizefighter wrote:

The U.S. lost because the current crop of GP riders are faster outdoors and it’s as simple as that.

joeellis wrote:

Possibly, but if you use the criteria I presented above, Tomac is right there with Herlings and Cairoli who are the 2 best Europeans day in...

Possibly, but if you use the criteria I presented above, Tomac is right there with Herlings and Cairoli who are the 2 best Europeans day in and day out. I still feel that if all the top riders raced the same series head-to-head the Americans would fair as well as anyone, but that will never happen unfortunately. The Americans had a very sub-par year on home turf. This is what has everyone up in the air, but if you go back to some of the prior Nations, unusual circumstances hindered the American cause (as well as other nations). Martin broke his foot. Webb toppled over in a very slow off camber rut that was incredibly deep. Anderson was landed on after finishing 1st in Race 1.

The talent worldwide is amazing. In a 2 day event, I still contend that true results aren't determined. Every nation who sends a team should be proud of their competitors. Slamming home riders because they don't win every year is absurd. That is going to change from time-to-time. America still has more wins by a large margin. We should be proud of that and not assume we will win every year. That is just unrealistic. As long as the riders chosen give it there all (and I believe they did), we have no right to pass judgement imo.

theprizefighter wrote:

The numbers only mean so much. What matters most are results, and so I think a trend has been established enough to say that right now...

The numbers only mean so much. What matters most are results, and so I think a trend has been established enough to say that right now, the GP riders are faster outdoors. People are talking about ways to fix it, and I have a very simple answer: go faster. A half a second faster adds up over 30 minutes of racing.

Even Decoster acknowledged that the ama riders were outclassed and not as fast. The problem is speed, the symptoms are the losses.

joeellis wrote:

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.

Forty wrote:

I do agree with Rupert that recently here in the U.S.A. the MXoN has experienced a priority shift, being shuffled to a position that appears unimportant...

I do agree with Rupert that recently here in the U.S.A. the MXoN has experienced a priority shift, being shuffled to a position that appears unimportant to the current group of race candidates creating a casual attitude towards participating, leave alone winning.

It is unacceptable and I don't like it either, and I respect the fact that Rupert has brought this forward along with ideas for improvement.

It's more than anyone has done, at least publicly, until now.

I agree that new team manager(s) should be installed not because Roger isn't the Man but because sometimes new blood is needed, and this may be one of those times. Rick Johnson is the first guy that comes to my mind.

More than anything the race has to matter again, right now it feels like it doesn't. Those given the privilege to race it should become that race, it should mean everything to them, it has to, there are too many things that can and do go wrong, to approach it in any other way is a plan to fail.

RedBud was a huge kick in the sack, we were caught short and exposed in our own house. To allow that is just f'd up.

Not taking anything away from the individual or team winners, they were amazing rides.

We need to do better. Thanks Rupert, at least people are talking.

Sir Roostsalot wrote:

Very interesting and spirited delivery. The more I reflected on the discipline and military aspect of the major plan for world dominance the more I liked...

Very interesting and spirited delivery. The more I reflected on the discipline and military aspect of the major plan for world dominance the more I liked it and felt it madd petfect sense. Lets face it we used to win and were able to win MXDN based on sheer technical superiority, that gap has been narrowed to nothing now. Lets not forget, Assen will be the Euro's race to lose. The worst tactic possible would be for USA to approach the race in the same way as we approached all the other. I know this will make some people really FLAME, but maybe it's time for a new team manager . After all, there is no such thing as a bad soldier, just bad officers.

Rupert X wrote:

MXDN Red Bud 2018 – The Massacre We, (the American Team) finished in sixth (6th) place and, the reason we finished in sixth place, was because-...

MXDN Red Bud 2018 – The Massacre

We, (the American Team) finished in sixth (6th) place and, the reason we finished in sixth place, was because- we weren’t properly PREPARED. We picked the right riders, they performed to the best of their abilities, yet, we failed to even make it onto the podium. The Motocross Des Nations has been held three (3) other times on American soil and the Americans have won on each of those occasions, in 1987, 2007 and 2010, respectively. It took forty (40) years to have our first American Des Nations event, now we have had three in the past eleven years and, it appears we are likely to be a more regular, less sporadic home, to this most prestigious event, accordingly, we need to be better prepared for the upcoming September event in Assen, The Netherlands, and, for any future Motocross Des Nations events. The last time the Americans won, was in 2011 and, we have had a total of 22 MXDN victories, though, of late, our performances have been less-than-satisfactory. While we had a string of podium finishes from 2012-2016, 2017 saw the Americans finish in a very disappointing ninth (9th) in England and, the most recent, unacceptable sixth (6th) place overall at RED BUD, Michigan, which is why we MUST pledge to not only reinvent the TEAM that we send to the Motocross Des Nations, we must change the culture, the process and the planning involved, keeping paramount the fact that the MXDN is, by far, the most important race date on everyone’s calendar. Every year.

Currently, the AMA is in charge of this program and, the “TEAM” is in desperate need of an overhaul, after all, somehow we’ve let the folks who took away our WORKS BIKES, removed the best-smelling race-fuels, put 450’s in the stadiums and, STILL won’t allow 250 Two-strokes to compete in the 250cc class, to run America’s Motocross Team ? It is not only preposterous, it’s unacceptable and un-American, and we can no longer permit things to operate in this incompetent manner.



TEAM AMERICA 2019.

1. New name, TEAM AMERICA. New Coaches, new staff, sweeping changes in the way the team is selected, trained and, the manner in which we execute on RACE DAY.
2. Getting the fans involved. We shall let the U.S Motocross fans, by poll, choose the initial six finalists, and eventually the final four honorees that have the distinct privilege of representing their country. ( 3 plus an additional rider ‘alternate”)
3. Do away with the Team Manager, replace with General Manager, Head Coach and Assistant Coaches. For 2019, assemble a mostly retired-military and former military, coaching staff, as well as various ex-Team USA riders as consultants and coaches.
4. Prepare the Team as if it was a military exercise, with precision, promptness, sense of urgency and, attention to detail. Yes, a military style operation.
5. The TEAM will practice and train together after completion of the U.S. Nationals series, promoting brotherhood, camaraderie, esprit de corps and, a common desire to succeed. For one’s country.
6. MXDN Training Camp starts immediately after the last AMA National.
7. Four finalists will compete in last two MXGP races in Turkey and Italy, being stationed and practicing in Lommel, Belgium- between these Grand Prix events.
8. TEAM AMERICA jackets to be awarded on the podium. Only on the podium.
9. TEAM AMERICA pits at Assen to be operated like a war-room. No guests.
10. If a selected rider declines an invitation to the TEAM, he will be disqualified from the first round of the following years’ series, both SX and MX.
11. As an incentive to participate (beyond the honor of serving one’s country), several potential provisions shall be explored and considered; including giving theses honorees first gate picks at first round of Nationals, possibly additional points awarded at beginning of season, perhaps special number-plate recognition.


2019 TIMELINE:


JUNE 22 – WW MX Park, Florida ( 5 races completed), Six (6) Rider Candidates to the MXDN TEAM AMERICA *WATCH LIST* selected and announced. BY FAN VOTE.

AUGUST 17-BUDDS CREEK, Maryland – Four (4) Rider Finalists for the MXDN TEAM AMERICA selected and announced, (including an alternate). BY FAN VOTE.

August 25 thru 5 September – MXDN Training Camp, likely at BAJA ACRES, Michigan, USA

September 8- MXGP Turkey
September 22- MXGP Italy
September 29-ASSEN, Netherlands. RACE DAY.

drt410 wrote:

Why is this back again... we beat it into the ground months ago. How many more threads? 2 more tomorrow to say the same thing? We...

Why is this back again... we beat it into the ground months ago. How many more threads? 2 more tomorrow to say the same thing? We have 3 already now since yesterday, whyyyy is this back again....

TeamFlannel wrote:

You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I...

You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I watched practice/qualifying trackside Saturday and The Race Sunday - WE weren't even in the same race. OR gear for that matter ( my 22yr. old son pointed that one out to me). The way we rode was laughable AT BEST compared to the Euro's- PERIOD.
Prado impressed the hell out of me, that dude rides with alot of strength. Discovered afterwards he is a small dude. Unreal talent and technique! And a broken shoulder a month or so earlier I believe? WOW!

joeellis wrote:

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.

TeamFlannel wrote:

You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I...

You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I watched practice/qualifying trackside Saturday and The Race Sunday - WE weren't even in the same race. OR gear for that matter ( my 22yr. old son pointed that one out to me). The way we rode was laughable AT BEST compared to the Euro's- PERIOD.
Prado impressed the hell out of me, that dude rides with alot of strength. Discovered afterwards he is a small dude. Unreal talent and technique! And a broken shoulder a month or so earlier I believe? WOW!

TeamFlannel wrote:

You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I...

You can throw all the stats and crunch all the numbers that make you warm and fuzzy, but I know THIS- Team America was outgunned. I watched practice/qualifying trackside Saturday and The Race Sunday - WE weren't even in the same race. OR gear for that matter ( my 22yr. old son pointed that one out to me). The way we rode was laughable AT BEST compared to the Euro's- PERIOD.
Prado impressed the hell out of me, that dude rides with alot of strength. Discovered afterwards he is a small dude. Unreal talent and technique! And a broken shoulder a month or so earlier I believe? WOW!

ruy wrote:

[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/12/21/311807/s1200_43448920_1887341791387356_354140342778751459_n.jpg[/img] No, Prado injured an elbow before Argentina before the start of the MX2 season and also hurt a little on the back after the crash...

No, Prado injured an elbow before Argentina before the start of the MX2 season and also hurt a little on the back after the crash with Jonass in Turkey, in Red Bud what happened is that he almost did not train anything week before for so many acts of celebration and interviews in España after getting the title of MX2, and that's why he had a bad Saturday because of that inactivity, but Saturday's activity helped him recover on Sunday, next year in Assen he does not commit that inactivity error,and Prado will crush Herlings in MXDN 2019.

Flip109 wrote:

Well if it didnt piss out of the sky for two days leading up to redbud, and make it a fucking epic GP track that fell...

Well if it didnt piss out of the sky for two days leading up to redbud, and make it a fucking epic GP track that fell right into the hands of the sneaky GP riders, we were going to be first or second to France only. That is a fact. You really think Glen Coldenhoff as great as he was that day could come over here and take our national championship with ease? No. Actually none of them could except Herlings and maybe TC and they are the absolute best they have in that series. So while it looks like we have fallen behind because we got waxed on a very sloppy “euro” redbud track, we are not all that far behind. If TC retired next year and Herlings went to fast and caught flight and went to the moon, all of a sudden the GPs don’t look so much stronger anymore. Hell last year at the usgp Tomac actually beat Herlings one moto and also easily disposed of former champs febvre and gajser in the process. Now I know this would not happen on a regular GP track so easily, but it was still an outdoor mx track few had ridden on. Also fricking RJ hampshire goes 1-1 against all the mx2 riders in that race and had never even won at an outdoor national. That is no fluke. So while at times it seems they are light years ahead of us, they really are not. People just like to panic. Our days of the old school hero’s and most recent domination with guys like RV, RC, and JS are long gone. When Tomac is on he’s untouchable but he just doesn’t always show up, esp when the pressure is monumental. So that’s what we are dealing with. The GPs have Herlings and with him it really looks lopsided, but he’s the exception not the rule.

joeellis wrote:

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.

BikeGuy321 wrote:

Your numbers prove the point I've made in other threads, that Tomac was saving himself for Monster Cup and not going for broke at MXDN. If...

Your numbers prove the point I've made in other threads, that Tomac was saving himself for Monster Cup and not going for broke at MXDN. If his times were so competitive but he only managed poor finishes, IMO, he stopped charging early in the races. I didn't see the same Tomac that weekend, compared to the AMA Nationals where he made up 5 seconds per lap on Musquin at the end of the motos.

Flip109 wrote:

Well if it didnt piss out of the sky for two days leading up to redbud, and make it a fucking epic GP track that fell...

Well if it didnt piss out of the sky for two days leading up to redbud, and make it a fucking epic GP track that fell right into the hands of the sneaky GP riders, we were going to be first or second to France only. That is a fact. You really think Glen Coldenhoff as great as he was that day could come over here and take our national championship with ease? No. Actually none of them could except Herlings and maybe TC and they are the absolute best they have in that series. So while it looks like we have fallen behind because we got waxed on a very sloppy “euro” redbud track, we are not all that far behind. If TC retired next year and Herlings went to fast and caught flight and went to the moon, all of a sudden the GPs don’t look so much stronger anymore. Hell last year at the usgp Tomac actually beat Herlings one moto and also easily disposed of former champs febvre and gajser in the process. Now I know this would not happen on a regular GP track so easily, but it was still an outdoor mx track few had ridden on. Also fricking RJ hampshire goes 1-1 against all the mx2 riders in that race and had never even won at an outdoor national. That is no fluke. So while at times it seems they are light years ahead of us, they really are not. People just like to panic. Our days of the old school hero’s and most recent domination with guys like RV, RC, and JS are long gone. When Tomac is on he’s untouchable but he just doesn’t always show up, esp when the pressure is monumental. So that’s what we are dealing with. The GPs have Herlings and with him it really looks lopsided, but he’s the exception not the rule.

Jamie_Munro wrote:

grow up, it would have been the same story in the dry

kb228 wrote:

Ok let me be real with you for 1 small second here. 90% of my posts on here are jokes/not remotely serious or theyre purposefully opposing...

Ok let me be real with you for 1 small second here.

90% of my posts on here are jokes/not remotely serious or theyre purposefully opposing opinions to stir up deeper conversation from both sides of the aisle.

Literally yesterday i told a dude my ancestors were from the egg of a bald eagle. And here you are getting bent up over something on the internet.

Relax dude. Its the internet. Get off my nuts.

joeellis wrote:

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American...

I complied a list of the top 6 riders in each race (with possibly the exception of Barcia in race 2). This includes the top American in each race. I didn't use race finish as the criteria (although that's all that matters really). I instead placed more emphasis on speed and best lap time.

What do the numbers tell us? Coldenhoff had an exceptional day, finishing ahead of Herlings in Race 3. Is this the norm? While Coldenhoff is an exceptional rider, is he better than Herlings or Cairoli the majority of the time? I believe we can all answer no to this question.

Did Herlings and Cairoli slaughter Tomac? Looking at the numbers in each of the 2 races, the difference between Tomac and Cairoli were barely discernible. Tomac actually outperformed Antonio in each race (although very slightly) using the speed/best lap time criteria. Tomac also faired very favorably against Herlings in Race 1 using this criteria. Race 3 is where Herlings and Coldenhoff separated themselves from Cairoli and Tomac.

Other very interesting results to me is how well Prado faired against the best in the world. He is a super young talent who will have something to say regarding Herlings' superiority if he remains healthy. Also, Lawrence looks to have a very bright future. One thing that surprised me regarding the American results, is the mediocre results from Barsha. He is normally very good in inclement conditions. I was actually at Budds Creek in 2015 (I believe the year is correct) when Barcia won the overall. The 2nd 450 Moto was raced under horrendous conditions. There was a significant rain delay before the final race on a track that was already very muddy.

Finally, there are exceptional racers throughout the world. Always have been. These things go in cycles and one race per year doesn't tell the entire story. The top riders need to compete against each other all year long on the same tracks and conditions to truly answer these questions. Herlings may very well be the best in the world at the moment, but imo, Cairoli, Tomac, Roczen, Prado, etc. are lurking right there with him.

Race 1[/u[u]Finish Best lap Speed
Herlings 1 2:05.671 51.9
Desalle 5 2:05.791 51.9
Tomac 4 2:06.088 51.8
Paulin 2 2:06.199 51.7
Prado 3 2:06.599 51.6
Cairoli 6 2:06.094 51

Race 2
Coldenhoff 1 2:06.711 51.5
Seewer 5 2:08.299 50.9
Lawrence 2 2:08.804 50.7
Prado 3 2:08.689 50.7
Kullas 7 2:08.782 50.7
Barcia 9 2:10.467 50

Race 3
Herlings 2 2:05.261 52.1
Coldenhoff 1 2:05.419 52
Tomac 7 2:07.297 51.3
Nagl 8 2:07.336 51.3
Cairoli 4 2:07.700 51.1
Anstie 6 2:08.101. 51

*sorry for the poor separation of the results. I did create separation, but the final product doesn't reflect that.

BikeGuy321 wrote:

Your numbers prove the point I've made in other threads, that Tomac was saving himself for Monster Cup and not going for broke at MXDN. If...

Your numbers prove the point I've made in other threads, that Tomac was saving himself for Monster Cup and not going for broke at MXDN. If his times were so competitive but he only managed poor finishes, IMO, he stopped charging early in the races. I didn't see the same Tomac that weekend, compared to the AMA Nationals where he made up 5 seconds per lap on Musquin at the end of the motos.

Jamie_Munro wrote:

Stopped charging, really? He is your national champ and there is no stopping charging, he just couldn't carry on at the speed required to win and...

Stopped charging, really?

He is your national champ and there is no stopping charging, he just couldn't carry on at the speed required to win and it is that simple - he got beat by a portion of the men on the field and the track.

Here is how it goes: They were not as fast across a race, it is not a TT where science and a singular lap time decides who is fastest, it starts and ends with a flag and every competitor knows it.

NO IF'S BUTS OR MAYBES COUNT IN A RACE.