MXGP. Is it healthy?

Bearuno
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5/24/2018 11:38pm
hillbilly wrote:
Bangkok is the track I am referring to i believe
Pankal Penang, Indonesia, last year. Biblical rain. Thailand (rain too, at times), was a few years ago - 2 or maybe it was 3 GPs? - at a Good track, then one at that Fairground MX/SX track made at a run down Road Race facility, in 2015. And that was truly, truly a risible venue. Suited RV though.

I was there for the first few Thai GPs, and last year for Pankal Penang

There was a Big Crowd in Indonesia. Of very nice, interested / interesting / enthusiastic people.

Indonesia is a Massive 2 wheel market (and producer) - and MX - well any form of Motorcycle Racing, influences even the purchase of commuter level bikes. Pushing Brand names. Because sure a hell, if it didn't, we'd see bugger all Factory Supported racing, everywhere , if it only related to MX sales - of which bugger all (by overall Bike sales, and with bugger all profit) are sold.

It was just a pity the track builders didn't seem to take in the height of the water table, plus the inevitable rain. All they needed to have done was ensure the entire track itself was just a tad higher than the area besides it. But they didn't, and a few sections were lower than that area. All over the island were channels lower than the surrounding areas to take the regular / constant deluges - why the track builders didn't cotton on to things, I do not know. Probably didn't listen to / ask the locals.........

I'm going to the 2 Indonesian GPs this year - they are a week apart. With the way things go with Luongo / Youthstream, I'd not be surprised if one is cancelled, but Indonesia is an interesting place, that my GF liked so much last year, and, as she's paying, I'm happy with whatever transpires.
5/25/2018 12:34am
Luongo is just following suit on how F1, MotoGP, WSB etc are run nowadays. The problem is that the product of MXGP isn't even close to the market size of those other series, and thus it's harder for the riders and teams to bring in sponsors that would pay the show. If a top 10 WSB rider and a top 10 MXGP rider walk in to a company and ask for money, who do you think will get it?
Same goes for the organizers of the events. It's no biggie for a big motorsport complex to organize a MotoGP or WSB or whatever race. The stands are gonna be full and probably the government, local city or whatever are throwing in some cash to make the event happen, plus a ton of other sponsors. But when MXGP is coming to town and a local club has to run the show, no one cares. At least that was the problem a couple of years ago here in Finland. They got it cheap when the Russian round was canceled and Luongo needed a replacement quickly and somewhere remotely close since the tour was going to be on the road anyway in Latvia and Sweden. When you have to pay to organize a motocross race for someone else, have to make all the work leading up to it and then get just a part of all ticket etc sales, it's not worth it.
But as I've said before, there will always be new riders and new teams popping up ready to pay the piper to keep his show going. There will always be organizers that are able to pay for organizing the events for him. And thus the show will continue on like it is. I enjoy watching the series and I'm happy to pay for the pass to watch it, but outside of a select few riders, I don't think it's good business.
Motofinne
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5/25/2018 12:39am Edited Date/Time 5/25/2018 12:42am
Is any offroad series healthy(except SX)? Look, there are massive issues with the GPs. But there are some good things too.

YS is too shortsighted. The USGP att WW Ranch had an amazing potential, why not help those guys out and do a cheaper 3-5 year deal to make it a tradition? Instead they're done after one go at it.

The 23 year old rule in MX2. Just like the pointing out rule in US SX it screws riders. But there is a positive part with the MX2 rule. It forces so many good riders to the MXGP class and that equals to a insanely tough class. And the EMX system is brilliant.

Then there is the long trips. The bad part is the cost. The good part is the variety in tracks and scenery that comes with that. I'm in favor of doing the fly away races, i hope Australia gets a round in the future.

And the gates are almost full in all the European rounds. And there would be about 30 riders(or more) in all the fly aways if everyone is healthy. I think that is a clear sign that things are relatively well, there weren't many rounds with full gates 5-10 years ago? As for teams and such... They will go away and new ones pop up. Just like in every other series out there.
Fearo
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5/25/2018 1:12am Edited Date/Time 5/25/2018 1:28am
The MXGP series has been in an artificial coma for the last ~15 years and the only reason it still exists is because the factories keep providing it with oxygen and there are some crazy race promotors with deep pockets still in play.

Absolutely nothing about that whole series is sustainable. The elitist F1-esque model that Youthstream has enforced on that series since the early 2000s has never worked and will never work. For this reason the series can't grow or evolve organically, but is always dependent on some sort of cash injection. Thankfully, Suzuki is the first to have said: "no more". It sucks for the riders, but the factories dropping out is the only thing that could resolve this mess.

Yes, there are great tracks, great riders and there is great racing, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how the series is being run. I won't go into detail about everything that's wrong with the series because I'd need 5 pages of this thread.

I can understand that to the casual viewer everything looks great and professional. There will always be room in the spotlight for the Herlings and Cairolis of this world, but the sport needs more than 6-8 world class riders doing their dance.

The Shop

Motofinne
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5/25/2018 1:20am
Fearo wrote:
The MXGP series has been in an artificial coma for the last ~15 years and the only reason it still exists is because the factories keep...
The MXGP series has been in an artificial coma for the last ~15 years and the only reason it still exists is because the factories keep providing it with oxygen and there are some crazy race promotors with deep pockets still in play.

Absolutely nothing about that whole series is sustainable. The elitist F1-esque model that Youthstream has enforced on that series since the early 2000s has never worked and will never work. For this reason the series can't grow or evolve organically, but is always dependent on some sort of cash injection. Thankfully, Suzuki is the first to have said: "no more". It sucks for the riders, but the factories dropping out is the only thing that could resolve this mess.

Yes, there are great tracks, great riders and there is great racing, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how the series is being run. I won't go into detail about everything that's wrong with the series because I'd need 5 pages of this thread.

I can understand that to the casual viewer everything looks great and professional. There will always be room in the spotlight for the Herlings and Cairolis of this world, but the sport needs more than 6-8 world class riders doing their dance.
Isn't that the case with US nationals too? A SX race winning rider and team isn't participating in the series.

I see SX as probably the only series out of these 3 that could survive without the factories writing the checks?
Bearuno
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5/25/2018 1:27am
And, by the way, they've announced rounds to be staged in China and Hong Kong. Can't recall if they happen next year, or further in the future.

China? - well yes - a massive, massive market. And, if even a poofteenth of a poofteenth of a poofteenth of a percent of Chinese (and, say, Indians of the Sub Continent) people got into Dirtbikes, we'd see a boom in all Dirtbike sports that would make the 70s boom in Western markets look microscopic by comparison.

Hong Kong? I'd say I'm a typical unknowing doofus - it's a bloody small place with huge demands on any land, this doofus would assume. But, once again, it's got potentially huge viewage etc as it is China / is hard up against mainland China.
DoubleA
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5/25/2018 1:48am
Bearuno wrote:
'They' - Luongo / Youthstream, think they have MotoGP / WSBK in their hands . So, 'They', have taken the model of contracted teams, and limited...
'They' - Luongo / Youthstream, think they have MotoGP / WSBK in their hands .

So, 'They', have taken the model of contracted teams, and limited numbers - MotoGP and WSBK have limits around the low / mid 20s for the grid in case any of you have not noticed - as being what's important.

And 'they' justify limited fields as having '"the best of the best". Not always the truth, but it's a a thing prevalent in many TV / Streaming sports - the screen doesn't need the back markers , only the 'Stars'.

Indeed, a few seasons ago Luongo / Youthstream had the MXGP class (and tried for MX2) limited to 30 riders. It was changed back to 40 max. They yielded to pressure from many true 'stewards' of the sport, but also realized "why the hell not take peoples money" through their exorbitant entry fees.

Luongo / Youthstream really do 'work' the Government / Industry paying for events model that so dominates much of Most sports today. It's the sign of the times.

And then you have Luongo, constantly saying that he chooses to not offer 'prize' money, because he puts it back into the ('his') sport. "He', shouldn't be paying the riders - that's for the Industry to do - that's his reasoning. So, every cent he gets from Monster, goes into his pockets. If Monster cared at all for the sport, they'd have a separate prize fund set aside for the Riders and Teams. But, hey, one can understand a corporate entity having Naming rights to a sport for the minimum cost to themselves. They really don't give a fuck.

Luongo / Youthstream are a Cancer on Our sport, and He / They've got it, currently, up to 2026.
I agree with what you have said. But why would Monster ever put up a prize pool for a chance of 'their' riders not to win it. How manys times has a RedBull rider won this year compared to a Monster rider? But something does need to be done about paying the riders.

But 40 riders signed up for Matterley is both classes, it's normally the fly away rounds which do poorly as people not having the funds to travel around, where the European rounds are a lot easier to get for the smaller teams. Anyone know how much its costs to get the bikes to each round averagely?
Fearo
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5/25/2018 2:01am Edited Date/Time 5/25/2018 2:07am
Fearo wrote:
The MXGP series has been in an artificial coma for the last ~15 years and the only reason it still exists is because the factories keep...
The MXGP series has been in an artificial coma for the last ~15 years and the only reason it still exists is because the factories keep providing it with oxygen and there are some crazy race promotors with deep pockets still in play.

Absolutely nothing about that whole series is sustainable. The elitist F1-esque model that Youthstream has enforced on that series since the early 2000s has never worked and will never work. For this reason the series can't grow or evolve organically, but is always dependent on some sort of cash injection. Thankfully, Suzuki is the first to have said: "no more". It sucks for the riders, but the factories dropping out is the only thing that could resolve this mess.

Yes, there are great tracks, great riders and there is great racing, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how the series is being run. I won't go into detail about everything that's wrong with the series because I'd need 5 pages of this thread.

I can understand that to the casual viewer everything looks great and professional. There will always be room in the spotlight for the Herlings and Cairolis of this world, but the sport needs more than 6-8 world class riders doing their dance.
Motofinne wrote:
Isn't that the case with US nationals too? A SX race winning rider and team isn't participating in the series. I see SX as probably the...
Isn't that the case with US nationals too? A SX race winning rider and team isn't participating in the series.

I see SX as probably the only series out of these 3 that could survive without the factories writing the checks?
That's probably true, but for completely different reasons in my opinion. In the US there's a huge emphasis on supercross from the teams and sponsors and it's easy to see why. More 'friendly' for casual spectators, easier to televize, etc. It sort of is an 'elite' sport in itself because it's more or less a 'pro-only' sport. Yeah, there is amateur supercross but you get what I'm trying to say... Even though after about round 5 I find SX to be boring, I get why it's the most popular part of racing in the US. On top of that, I see supercross as a fairly sustainable model. Yeah, privateers and smaller team riders don't get paid enough, but at least they can race. It's a fairly straightforward ordeal, if you can get a pro licence, nothing stands in your way of trying to qualify for a supercross. Even god himself couldn't race a GP if he wasn't on a 'MXGP approved team'.

My point is, the SX series is already 17 rounds, a big stretch on team budgets and riders as well. I don't think the sport is big enough to keep people interested for 29 weeks, so the nationals take the back seat. I would love to see it the other way around, but from a marketing standpoint, I get it.

Now in Europe there is no supercross, so the entire industry only has to focus on one thing for an entire year. The problem is, Johny Local can't bring any sponsors in because he can't race. Why do you think the various national championships teams have all these "smaller" sponsors and the GP's don't? Like Carglass, Buildbase, Pfeil,... The GP's live off energy drinks but they only want the best guys. Motocross is a grass roots sport and it needs the smaller teams/lesser known riders to bring in outside money and sponsorships. It doesn't have the F1-type car manuacturers checkbooks where millions can be thrown down the drain without any return.
Motofinne
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5/25/2018 2:08am
Fearo wrote:
The MXGP series has been in an artificial coma for the last ~15 years and the only reason it still exists is because the factories keep...
The MXGP series has been in an artificial coma for the last ~15 years and the only reason it still exists is because the factories keep providing it with oxygen and there are some crazy race promotors with deep pockets still in play.

Absolutely nothing about that whole series is sustainable. The elitist F1-esque model that Youthstream has enforced on that series since the early 2000s has never worked and will never work. For this reason the series can't grow or evolve organically, but is always dependent on some sort of cash injection. Thankfully, Suzuki is the first to have said: "no more". It sucks for the riders, but the factories dropping out is the only thing that could resolve this mess.

Yes, there are great tracks, great riders and there is great racing, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how the series is being run. I won't go into detail about everything that's wrong with the series because I'd need 5 pages of this thread.

I can understand that to the casual viewer everything looks great and professional. There will always be room in the spotlight for the Herlings and Cairolis of this world, but the sport needs more than 6-8 world class riders doing their dance.
Motofinne wrote:
Isn't that the case with US nationals too? A SX race winning rider and team isn't participating in the series. I see SX as probably the...
Isn't that the case with US nationals too? A SX race winning rider and team isn't participating in the series.

I see SX as probably the only series out of these 3 that could survive without the factories writing the checks?
Fearo wrote:
That's probably true, but for completely different reasons in my opinion. In the US there's a huge emphasis on supercross from the teams and sponsors and...
That's probably true, but for completely different reasons in my opinion. In the US there's a huge emphasis on supercross from the teams and sponsors and it's easy to see why. More 'friendly' for casual spectators, easier to televize, etc. It sort of is an 'elite' sport in itself because it's more or less a 'pro-only' sport. Yeah, there is amateur supercross but you get what I'm trying to say... Even though after about round 5 I find SX to be boring, I get why it's the most popular part of racing in the US. On top of that, I see supercross as a fairly sustainable model. Yeah, privateers and smaller team riders don't get paid enough, but at least they can race. It's a fairly straightforward ordeal, if you can get a pro licence, nothing stands in your way of trying to qualify for a supercross. Even god himself couldn't race a GP if he wasn't on a 'MXGP approved team'.

My point is, the SX series is already 17 rounds, a big stretch on team budgets and riders as well. I don't think the sport is big enough to keep people interested for 29 weeks, so the nationals take the back seat. I would love to see it the other way around, but from a marketing standpoint, I get it.

Now in Europe there is no supercross, so the entire industry only has to focus on one thing for an entire year. The problem is, Johny Local can't bring any sponsors in because he can't race. Why do you think the various national championships teams have all these "smaller" sponsors and the GP's don't? Like Carglass, Buildbase, Pfeil,... The GP's live off energy drinks but they only want the best guys. Motocross is a grass roots sport and it needs the smaller teams/lesser known riders to bring in outside money and sponsorships. It doesn't have the F1-type car manuacturers checkbooks where millions can be thrown down the drain without any return.
That is true. It should be easier for smaller teams to race the whole series.
philG
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5/25/2018 2:57am
Crowd is one of the best of the year, and all the riders and teams love going there.

If it runs in 2019, we are going to try and go.
5/25/2018 5:54am
All I read is "MXGP needs to lower entry fees and pay purse."

If I recall correctly- Luongo increased entry fees and cut rider prize money alongside putting the races on live tv?
Claiming that the worldwide live tv promotion gave superior advertising opportunities and riders and teams alike could or should be able to capitalise on this and bring in sponsorship far easier. Am I correct?

So, lets say Luongo decided to go the other way- Lower entry fees, apply a prize fund but cut all tv packages...

Do Red Bull hang around in our sport? What about Monster? Who else wouldn't be interested if the races weren't on live TV?

Bearuno
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5/25/2018 5:56am
DoubleA wrote:
I agree with what you have said. But why would Monster ever put up a prize pool for a chance of 'their' riders not to win...
I agree with what you have said. But why would Monster ever put up a prize pool for a chance of 'their' riders not to win it. How manys times has a RedBull rider won this year compared to a Monster rider? But something does need to be done about paying the riders.

But 40 riders signed up for Matterley is both classes, it's normally the fly away rounds which do poorly as people not having the funds to travel around, where the European rounds are a lot easier to get for the smaller teams. Anyone know how much its costs to get the bikes to each round averagely?
It's more of a comment of how (I feel) cheaply our sport of Motorcycling is being sold, currently, to companies like Monster.

Look around at just how much of Motorcyclings' major events now have the Claw on them . Shit, the Isle of Man TT has been claimed by it the last few years.

That naming rights sponsors such as Monster don't pick up on how pissed off so many followers of the sport are about the way Riders / Teams are treated in terms of Prize Money, and Travel support, amazes me. It brings both the Sport, and them into a bad light. When I've had friends / family that have watched MXGPs with me, and they ask about prize money, they are always shocked / less than impressed that there's nothing on offer. Mind you, they are pretty unimpressed with the level of prize money on offer with SX - sadly, people (especially casually interested spectators) do tend to judge a sports 'worth' by the money on offer.

If I were an executive in charge of Sponsorship, I'd have a section of said sponsorship set aside for Prize Funds. Separate from what goes into Luongos / Youthstreams pockets. That riders that have other sponsors get your money? - you're still getting a shedload of exposure, and looking 'un-petty', if not magnanimous.

Many other major, and not so major sports have Huge prize money - much of it put up by the major sponsors as part of the Naming Rights. Decent prize money, through the ranks, not only helps the Riders / Teams, but, to the average 'watcher', it adds a hell of a lot to their perception of a sport. No prize money / pathetic numbers on oversized cheques - just go looking for the amount of high level MC sports, with superb athletes / riders holding up a couple of hundred dollar oversized cheque - makes for a sad indictment on rider rewards. It truly looks pathetic at times.

Hell, Luongo and Co stopped the awarding of Holeshot (oversized) Cheques a few years ago for each Moto / Round, I think largely because a few riders made a point of exclaiming things like "Money, Money , Money" at the giving of them, with a couple mentioning the lack of other prize money as well. Luongo and Co stopped that in it's tracks, eventually, giving them just the holeshot award plaque, and a end of year payout - that I think amounted to less than what could be made by a rider with the previous set up.

Fearo - you don't show up to a SX and get to participate just because you've a Pro License - that was what the RC 'thing' was about with Arenacross - now gone, of course. Not forgetting "grandfathered in" riders. Overseas riders that get to enter? - Championships / Results / Endorsements by their Federation are what I assume gets them in.

"Even God himself couldn't race a GP if he wasn't on an MXGP approved Team" : Well, other riders Do race the GPs. MXGP? - I assume they look at your results / record, and of course, and seemingly Most importantly, your Money for the Entry fee (especially for events in countries where Motocross is rather smaller in profile than other countries, and you then have some riders who have absolutely No business being in a GP) - as plenty of non contracted Team riders get to participate. Just have a look at the entries at most of the Euro GPs - there's more than the Approved Team riders on the line.

But of course, that Entry Fee seems to get thoroughly 'massaged' at times to get riders on the starting gate - most notably at the Overseas races - including the recent USGPs at Glen Helen. Heck, even in the "golden age" of USGPs at Carlsbad, you'd see small entries, often, with quite a few lessor known US names lining up. It's always been that way. SX? - Just going over the border to Canada usually resulted in far less entries when it still went out of the USA.
fullysicmate
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5/25/2018 6:04am
Cortami79 wrote:
After receiving the news of 8Biano Husqvarna closing his doors, I just read that Cervelin parted ways with Martin Honda. These things make me scratch my...
After receiving the news of 8Biano Husqvarna closing his doors, I just read that Cervelin parted ways with Martin Honda. These things make me scratch my head. How is it possible that certain riders (whom are talented enough to ride the world championship) have to choose to ride national championships instead of the MXGP races worldwide. It is just unbelievable that riders that can ride top 15 in a world championship on any occassion, can't earn their money with these results. If you look at risks they take versus the reward, it is just crazy.

Nowadays if you aren't a factory rider, you can better ride the French, ADAC or English championships and ride selected GP's.. It is just plain silly man. On top of that, seeing great 250 riders jumping 'back' to the EMX250 because of the age limit is just beyond crazy. What are your thoughts about these things? How healthy is the MXGP championship with all those overseas races? How is it possible that a riders like Jasikonis, who had his first podium last year at the age of 19 can't get a great paying ride and has to get race-by-race sponsors in order to keep racing the championship?

Don't get me too wrong. The infrastructure of the tracks, pit presentation and overall atmosphere at these races is beyond amazing and I absolutely love going to the GP's. (Something the AMA nationals could improve in my honest opinion). But it really affects the paychecks of the riders. You can say what you want, but nowadays paying €1000-1500 to ride a GP instead of receiving that amount as prize money back in the 90's hurts the riders really much..
Fact is mx does not bring in the dollar's, economics 101, supply vs demand. We here all love it, and possibly live for it but thats not enough. The 15th placed rider in motogp makes less money than most tradesmen, and that is the biggest 2 wheel series on the planet.
keinz
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5/30/2018 3:52am Edited Date/Time 5/30/2018 6:39am
It's as healty, as it ever been. Set up, coverage and so on. Look at as a business (what is btw is) and you will be jealous for what Luongo's doing. And how exactly the 23 year rule screws riders? If you don't deliver, you have to find yourselt another job. Pure and simple. How many guys you wanna see at the gate.50? Thats why MXGP is so staced. From 1st to 20th every guy won a GP or two. You don't like it? Here already was discussion about the Nationals 450 riders debt from 5th place to 10th and from 10th to 20th. Everybody was like, move the first 10 from 250 to 450, Especialy guys who sandbagged there like 10 years. Make up your mind already. I know that there is not so many factory seats. So it's same in Europe. Problem is not Luongo or whoever. MX is expensive sport. So are hobbies. If you don't have the money, you will drop the toys first. I know, it's cruel, but so is the world


https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/450-class-embarassing,13…
5/30/2018 4:26am
hillbilly wrote:
Bangkok is the track I am referring to i believe
Different continent altogether.
Motofinne
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5/30/2018 4:43am
keinz wrote:
It's as healty, as it ever been. Set up, coverage and so on. Look at as a business (what is btw is) and you will be...
It's as healty, as it ever been. Set up, coverage and so on. Look at as a business (what is btw is) and you will be jealous for what Luongo's doing. And how exactly the 23 year rule screws riders? If you don't deliver, you have to find yourselt another job. Pure and simple. How many guys you wanna see at the gate.50? Thats why MXGP is so staced. From 1st to 20th every guy won a GP or two. You don't like it? Here already was discussion about the Nationals 450 riders debt from 5th place to 10th and from 10th to 20th. Everybody was like, move the first 10 from 250 to 450, Especialy guys who sandbagged there like 10 years. Make up your mind already. I know that there is not so many factory seats. So it's same in Europe. Problem is not Luongo or whoever. MX is expensive sport. So are hobbies. If you don't have the money, you will drop the toys first. I know, it's cruel, but so is the world


https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/450-class-embarassing,13…
That is the positive side with the 23 year old rule. It forces riders up to the MXGP class and that has been (in my opinon) the biggest reason why the MXGP class is that insanely stacked.
motomike137
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5/30/2018 4:51am
Bearuno wrote:
It's more of a comment of how (I feel) cheaply our sport of Motorcycling is being sold, currently, to companies like Monster. Look around at just...
It's more of a comment of how (I feel) cheaply our sport of Motorcycling is being sold, currently, to companies like Monster.

Look around at just how much of Motorcyclings' major events now have the Claw on them . Shit, the Isle of Man TT has been claimed by it the last few years.

That naming rights sponsors such as Monster don't pick up on how pissed off so many followers of the sport are about the way Riders / Teams are treated in terms of Prize Money, and Travel support, amazes me. It brings both the Sport, and them into a bad light. When I've had friends / family that have watched MXGPs with me, and they ask about prize money, they are always shocked / less than impressed that there's nothing on offer. Mind you, they are pretty unimpressed with the level of prize money on offer with SX - sadly, people (especially casually interested spectators) do tend to judge a sports 'worth' by the money on offer.

If I were an executive in charge of Sponsorship, I'd have a section of said sponsorship set aside for Prize Funds. Separate from what goes into Luongos / Youthstreams pockets. That riders that have other sponsors get your money? - you're still getting a shedload of exposure, and looking 'un-petty', if not magnanimous.

Many other major, and not so major sports have Huge prize money - much of it put up by the major sponsors as part of the Naming Rights. Decent prize money, through the ranks, not only helps the Riders / Teams, but, to the average 'watcher', it adds a hell of a lot to their perception of a sport. No prize money / pathetic numbers on oversized cheques - just go looking for the amount of high level MC sports, with superb athletes / riders holding up a couple of hundred dollar oversized cheque - makes for a sad indictment on rider rewards. It truly looks pathetic at times.

Hell, Luongo and Co stopped the awarding of Holeshot (oversized) Cheques a few years ago for each Moto / Round, I think largely because a few riders made a point of exclaiming things like "Money, Money , Money" at the giving of them, with a couple mentioning the lack of other prize money as well. Luongo and Co stopped that in it's tracks, eventually, giving them just the holeshot award plaque, and a end of year payout - that I think amounted to less than what could be made by a rider with the previous set up.

Fearo - you don't show up to a SX and get to participate just because you've a Pro License - that was what the RC 'thing' was about with Arenacross - now gone, of course. Not forgetting "grandfathered in" riders. Overseas riders that get to enter? - Championships / Results / Endorsements by their Federation are what I assume gets them in.

"Even God himself couldn't race a GP if he wasn't on an MXGP approved Team" : Well, other riders Do race the GPs. MXGP? - I assume they look at your results / record, and of course, and seemingly Most importantly, your Money for the Entry fee (especially for events in countries where Motocross is rather smaller in profile than other countries, and you then have some riders who have absolutely No business being in a GP) - as plenty of non contracted Team riders get to participate. Just have a look at the entries at most of the Euro GPs - there's more than the Approved Team riders on the line.

But of course, that Entry Fee seems to get thoroughly 'massaged' at times to get riders on the starting gate - most notably at the Overseas races - including the recent USGPs at Glen Helen. Heck, even in the "golden age" of USGPs at Carlsbad, you'd see small entries, often, with quite a few lessor known US names lining up. It's always been that way. SX? - Just going over the border to Canada usually resulted in far less entries when it still went out of the USA.
Great post! Your point about perception of the sport revolving around purse money is spot on imho. When I tell an outsider what the prize money is for the races they look at me dumbfounded.
roninho
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5/30/2018 5:16am
All I read is "MXGP needs to lower entry fees and pay purse." If I recall correctly- Luongo increased entry fees and cut rider prize money...
All I read is "MXGP needs to lower entry fees and pay purse."

If I recall correctly- Luongo increased entry fees and cut rider prize money alongside putting the races on live tv?
Claiming that the worldwide live tv promotion gave superior advertising opportunities and riders and teams alike could or should be able to capitalise on this and bring in sponsorship far easier. Am I correct?

So, lets say Luongo decided to go the other way- Lower entry fees, apply a prize fund but cut all tv packages...

Do Red Bull hang around in our sport? What about Monster? Who else wouldn't be interested if the races weren't on live TV?

You don't recall correctly.

We had live tv on better channels before YS. We had big name sponsors before YS.

YS sold the story that MXGP would become like F1/MXGP with permanent teams who all would benefit greatly from the increased exposure that YS would achieve. And yes, cutting prize money and higher entry fees were part of tha

Reality is that they failed at this. There is no increased exposure that leads to enough income to overcome the increased costs.



roninho
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5/30/2018 5:28am
keinz wrote:
It's as healty, as it ever been. Set up, coverage and so on. Look at as a business (what is btw is) and you will be...
It's as healty, as it ever been. Set up, coverage and so on. Look at as a business (what is btw is) and you will be jealous for what Luongo's doing. And how exactly the 23 year rule screws riders? If you don't deliver, you have to find yourselt another job. Pure and simple. How many guys you wanna see at the gate.50? Thats why MXGP is so staced. From 1st to 20th every guy won a GP or two. You don't like it? Here already was discussion about the Nationals 450 riders debt from 5th place to 10th and from 10th to 20th. Everybody was like, move the first 10 from 250 to 450, Especialy guys who sandbagged there like 10 years. Make up your mind already. I know that there is not so many factory seats. So it's same in Europe. Problem is not Luongo or whoever. MX is expensive sport. So are hobbies. If you don't have the money, you will drop the toys first. I know, it's cruel, but so is the world


https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/450-class-embarassing,13…
'Look at as a busines (what it is btw)'

I do not blame Youthstream. They are a business and need to operate it as one.

However, i do blame the people at the FIM who sold the commercial rights to Youthstream.
The interest of the FIM is (or at least should be) to have a promoter who's main targets is to promote and grow the world championship and do it in a way that is good for the participants and good for the sport in general. Growth in terms of media exposure, public attendance, reaching new potential participants, ensuring that teams and riders can exist, etc.
They should select the best partner for that, and yes the partner should be able to make money on this as well.

It is my opinion that the FIM selected a partner in YS that is not interested in anything but their own bottom line and is following a strategy in which targets that should be targets of the FIM are not included at all. I don't blame YS for doing that, i blame the FIM for allowing this.

keinz
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5/30/2018 5:47am Edited Date/Time 5/30/2018 5:52am
roninho wrote:
'Look at as a busines (what it is btw)' I do not blame Youthstream. They are a business and need to operate it as one. However...
'Look at as a busines (what it is btw)'

I do not blame Youthstream. They are a business and need to operate it as one.

However, i do blame the people at the FIM who sold the commercial rights to Youthstream.
The interest of the FIM is (or at least should be) to have a promoter who's main targets is to promote and grow the world championship and do it in a way that is good for the participants and good for the sport in general. Growth in terms of media exposure, public attendance, reaching new potential participants, ensuring that teams and riders can exist, etc.
They should select the best partner for that, and yes the partner should be able to make money on this as well.

It is my opinion that the FIM selected a partner in YS that is not interested in anything but their own bottom line and is following a strategy in which targets that should be targets of the FIM are not included at all. I don't blame YS for doing that, i blame the FIM for allowing this.

That's all another story. Look who is the head of FIM. Soprano juniorSmile


Silas444
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5/30/2018 5:54am Edited Date/Time 5/30/2018 5:55am
Great post! Your point about perception of the sport revolving around purse money is spot on imho. When I tell an outsider what the prize money...
Great post! Your point about perception of the sport revolving around purse money is spot on imho. When I tell an outsider what the prize money is for the races they look at me dumbfounded.
Hmmm - I wonder if those 'outsiders' you talk to would also be 'dumbfounded' if they knew an NFL player only gets 104K for winning the Super Bowl but a 30 second ad costs 5 million? Hardly seems fair, now does it?
roninho
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5/30/2018 7:32am
Silas444 wrote:
Hmmm - I wonder if those 'outsiders' you talk to would also be 'dumbfounded' if they knew an NFL player only gets 104K for winning the...
Hmmm - I wonder if those 'outsiders' you talk to would also be 'dumbfounded' if they knew an NFL player only gets 104K for winning the Super Bowl but a 30 second ad costs 5 million? Hardly seems fair, now does it?
That sounds unfair. However it doesnt take into account the way the money is divided in the NFL by the CBA, because all income is added to a big pool and divided accordingly.

The player Union has negotiated that roughly 50% of the NFL's income has to be spend on the players. It actually varies per topic (55% of tv contracts and merchandise income, 45% of post season income, 40% of local revenu, etc.).

Every nfl team has a salary cap and they have to spend at least 89% iirc of the salary cap (average over 4 years). Which means that in the 2018 season NFL players will earn at least close to 5.0 billion dollar. The superstars more then the 3rd string safety but i would say that for the players in total this seems like pretty decent compensation.
Robgvx
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5/30/2018 11:23am Edited Date/Time 5/30/2018 11:23am
keinz wrote:
That's all another story. Look who is the head of FIM. Soprano junior:) [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/30/264759/s1200_Screenshot_2018_05_30_15.46.28.jpg[/img]
That's all another story. Look who is the head of FIM. Soprano juniorSmile


He’s actually a good guy. It’s the others, and his predecessors who aren’t.
skiz
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5/30/2018 2:46pm
Cortami79 wrote:
After receiving the news of 8Biano Husqvarna closing his doors, I just read that Cervelin parted ways with Martin Honda. These things make me scratch my...
After receiving the news of 8Biano Husqvarna closing his doors, I just read that Cervelin parted ways with Martin Honda. These things make me scratch my head. How is it possible that certain riders (whom are talented enough to ride the world championship) have to choose to ride national championships instead of the MXGP races worldwide. It is just unbelievable that riders that can ride top 15 in a world championship on any occassion, can't earn their money with these results. If you look at risks they take versus the reward, it is just crazy.

Nowadays if you aren't a factory rider, you can better ride the French, ADAC or English championships and ride selected GP's.. It is just plain silly man. On top of that, seeing great 250 riders jumping 'back' to the EMX250 because of the age limit is just beyond crazy. What are your thoughts about these things? How healthy is the MXGP championship with all those overseas races? How is it possible that a riders like Jasikonis, who had his first podium last year at the age of 19 can't get a great paying ride and has to get race-by-race sponsors in order to keep racing the championship?

Don't get me too wrong. The infrastructure of the tracks, pit presentation and overall atmosphere at these races is beyond amazing and I absolutely love going to the GP's. (Something the AMA nationals could improve in my honest opinion). But it really affects the paychecks of the riders. You can say what you want, but nowadays paying €1000-1500 to ride a GP instead of receiving that amount as prize money back in the 90's hurts the riders really much..
Cortami79 wrote: "Nowadays if you aren't a factory rider, you can better ride the French, ADAC or English championships and ride selected GP's.. It is just plain silly man. On top of that, seeing great 250 riders jumping 'back' to the EMX250 because of the age limit is just beyond crazy. What are your thoughts about these things? How healthy is the MXGP championship with all those overseas races? ......"
I see 3 rounds that are flyaway, Argentina and 2 in Indonesia. Where are "all those".? You can add one more for MxdN in the USA but it seems that a World Championship should have many many MORE out-of-Europe rounds.
Paul333
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5/30/2018 5:20pm
line-up wrote:
There will be Argentina GP next year
hillbilly wrote:
They still have that gp in the jungle where everybody loves in grass huts and shrinks heads?

Track always looked good but thin crowd.
jemcee wrote:
Thin crowd? last year [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/24/263922/s1200_3_3.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/24/263923/s1200_3_13.jpg[/img] this year [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/24/263926/s1200_35.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/05/24/263925/s1200_26.jpg[/img]
Thin crowd? last year



this year


Hint; Thanks for cherry picking photos from the ONE good Fly Away Race; Argentina. It has certainly been a success racing wise. It costs the teams a lot to race it and Youthstream keeps all the money but it is a well attended race on a beautiful track.

Everyone of the other Fly Away Races are on fair ground tracks with a hundred spectators.
Paul333
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5/30/2018 5:50pm
Great post! Your point about perception of the sport revolving around purse money is spot on imho. When I tell an outsider what the prize money...
Great post! Your point about perception of the sport revolving around purse money is spot on imho. When I tell an outsider what the prize money is for the races they look at me dumbfounded.
Silas444 wrote:
Hmmm - I wonder if those 'outsiders' you talk to would also be 'dumbfounded' if they knew an NFL player only gets 104K for winning the...
Hmmm - I wonder if those 'outsiders' you talk to would also be 'dumbfounded' if they knew an NFL player only gets 104K for winning the Super Bowl but a 30 second ad costs 5 million? Hardly seems fair, now does it?
Hint: Each and every Player is still extremely well paid. That isn’t the case for Motocross.
skiz
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5/30/2018 5:51pm
"Everyone of the other Fly Away Races are on fair ground tracks with a hundred spectators." Are we talking about the 2 flyaways in Indonesia. There are not any other flyaways.
jemcee
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5/30/2018 6:20pm
Paul333 wrote:
Hint; Thanks for cherry picking photos from the ONE good Fly Away Race; Argentina. It has certainly been a success racing wise. It costs the teams...
Hint; Thanks for cherry picking photos from the ONE good Fly Away Race; Argentina. It has certainly been a success racing wise. It costs the teams a lot to race it and Youthstream keeps all the money but it is a well attended race on a beautiful track.

Everyone of the other Fly Away Races are on fair ground tracks with a hundred spectators.
Hint: Have a look at the posts I was replying to, I thought Hillbilly was talking about the Argentina round when he said good track but thin crowds..

I don't think they should bother with the fly away races either (except Argentina.. That track puts a tingle in my misters) but old Luongo has gotta Luongo
roninho
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5/31/2018 2:58am
Prejump wrote:
Its an elitist model. Not perfect by any means. The MXGP is all about the factory teams & bringing them the exposure they need. Not only...
Its an elitist model. Not perfect by any means.

The MXGP is all about the factory teams & bringing them the exposure they need.

Not only has the business model changed & world has changed. Travel costs are very high, 4 stroke tuning to be competitive, it all goes against the journey man or small team.

Really privateer efforts are about national or euro series, MXGP is about the factory teams. Will mean less riders but if were being honest most people only care about the top riders.
Elitist model is not an issue. The owner making isnt the issue as well. The France family and Bernie and Ezpelata made big money on nascar, f1 and motogp. And as a result of their succes and growth the people in the sport benefited massively as well.

Compared to Youthstream i fail to see who benefited outside of Youthstream itself since the sport did not grow but is in worse shape in terms of exposure, sponsorships and money involved.

Bottom line is this:
A reasonably attended GP brings in 600-700.000 euro/usd in ticket sales, excluding drinks, food, sponsorship and vip income.
If you take away the fee to youthstream any club with a good circuit and a bunch of volunteers can organize a GP and hire a company for the tv production, pay the riders a substantial purse and still make good money on it.

So tell me, what does Youthstream add that makes it a bonus that they run the show?

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