The C Class Sandbagger

SIMX2
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SIMX2 4/20/2018 6:47am
4/20/2018 6:47am
C stands for Catastrophe!
rob162
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rob162 4/20/2018 7:33am
4/20/2018 7:33am
Yeah C class is pretty bogus now. Last race i was at top 3 in C class were turning the SAME lap times as top 3 in B Class and very close to the back half of A Class. How is that even allowed. You didnt even need to put a watch on it you could actually see it. I was at a lorettas qualifyer a few years back and the. Top 5 in C Class thier times were as fast and a couple faster then the Top 5 from B class. There is no way C riders should be at a rough as hell track, should be able to qualify for B class lorettas. Its honestly getting ridiculous. We had a guy win a bunch in C class one year also winning 14/24
From time to time. The next year they bumped him to B he tried to petion it because he hadnt qualifyed for lorettas yet. Yeah he got denied.
kb228
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kb228 4/20/2018 7:41am
4/20/2018 7:41am
Maybe if theres a C rider blowing out the competition they get added to a list to be bumped a class the following race. Possibly some kind of result/class tracker that way people cant go down.
Arrowangel 4/20/2018 7:47am
4/20/2018 7:47am
Where i race (harescrambles) the classes are spread like this

- sportsman (beginner)
-Open C
-Vet C 30+

and the same all the way to A/Vet A

The winner of each class has to move up each year, and if competition is close ,they will move sandbaggers up

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Keith72
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Keith72 4/20/2018 7:49am
4/20/2018 7:49am
I heard the factory teams are pulling guys straight out of the C class now.
1
Keith72
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Keith72 4/20/2018 7:52am
4/20/2018 7:52am
SIMX2 wrote:
C stands for Catastrophe!
Yup. I'm a vet c rider. It's scary. I'm thinking about practicing with the a/b guys because I feel like it would be safer. Is this a bad idea?
kpersonius264 4/20/2018 7:59am
4/20/2018 7:59am
kpersonius264 wrote:
Saw a kid laying it flat in 250d this weekend.
motomike137 wrote:
Wtf is 250d?
I guess it’s a little different where I live. D is beginner, C is novice, B is intermediate, A is pro am.

When I do our local summer series we don’t use letters at all. Not even joking the 250 beginner class has 30 to 40 riders, along with novice. Once you get to intermediate there’s like 5 riders per class.

2 summers ago I started racing again after a few years off (I was never that good) and did 250 beginner on my 125. After about the 3rd round I got my first top 5 and compared my lap times to the novice class. I was close enough to be competitive at about mid pack so I pulled the track owner to The side and asked him what I should do. He said it was a lot cooler to lose in the faster class than to win the slower class so I bumped myself the next round. During the riders meeting the next week he pointed me out to the crowd and praised me bumping myself up in an effort for others to follow. Nobody did....
1
motomike137
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motomike137 4/20/2018 8:07am
4/20/2018 8:07am
kpersonius264 wrote:
Saw a kid laying it flat in 250d this weekend.
motomike137 wrote:
Wtf is 250d?
kpersonius264 wrote:
I guess it’s a little different where I live. D is beginner, C is novice, B is intermediate, A is pro am. When I do our...
I guess it’s a little different where I live. D is beginner, C is novice, B is intermediate, A is pro am.

When I do our local summer series we don’t use letters at all. Not even joking the 250 beginner class has 30 to 40 riders, along with novice. Once you get to intermediate there’s like 5 riders per class.

2 summers ago I started racing again after a few years off (I was never that good) and did 250 beginner on my 125. After about the 3rd round I got my first top 5 and compared my lap times to the novice class. I was close enough to be competitive at about mid pack so I pulled the track owner to The side and asked him what I should do. He said it was a lot cooler to lose in the faster class than to win the slower class so I bumped myself the next round. During the riders meeting the next week he pointed me out to the crowd and praised me bumping myself up in an effort for others to follow. Nobody did....
actually I'm aware even though here in D14 we don't have "d". The whole system is so out of whack it is ridiculous. Imho C should only be a true beginner class. B should be where everybody that can ride halfway decent should land and A obviously would be for pro/ex pro/expert riders. Vets should not have anything besides age brackets. This modern everybody needs a trophy mentality is out of control!
samifan
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samifan 4/20/2018 8:34am
4/20/2018 8:34am
Not going to lie, I probably have been in this category for the last couple of years. I've been a career C rider, not very fast, scared, sketchy, etc. but something clicked 2 years ago and I made some big strides forward. I went from 1 career district win on 65's years back to winning a half dozen in one year against some decent competition. It was to the point that to get one clean lap in in practice I had to go A/B practice, as it was super sketchy trying to dodge some of the real beginners in C practice while still trying to get the bigger jumps down before moto 1 (that was probably the biggest thing for me, I'm a cautious rider and it became almost impossible to hit the big uphill triples with the C guys rolling them). Also, us top couple guys in C would often catch and pass many of the B riders in the drop ahead of us.

So why did I stay down? Once I figured out the riding stuff and got speed I got the idea that I would give Loretta's a shot. Problem is Loretta's is on a whole different level than district. The first year I tried I didn't even make it out of the AQ. Last year I barely made it out of the AQ, and then proceeded to get my ass handed to me at the Millville RQ. So at the District races I should probably be B, but at LL Qualifiers I'm a lower level C rider.

I decided after last years RQ that that was my last year in C, so if the snow ever leaves us here up north I'll finally dawn the yellow backgrounds and feel like I've made it... which will last right up to my first moto in which I will probably learn what real speed looks like.
bowser977
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bowser977 4/20/2018 8:38am
4/20/2018 8:38am
Any big amateur nationals you can look at the top C class riders and they could run mid pack A class.
kpersonius264 4/20/2018 9:01am
4/20/2018 9:01am
SIMX2 wrote:
C stands for Catastrophe!
Keith72 wrote:
Yup. I'm a vet c rider. It's scary. I'm thinking about practicing with the a/b guys because I feel like it would be safer. Is this...
Yup. I'm a vet c rider. It's scary. I'm thinking about practicing with the a/b guys because I feel like it would be safer. Is this a bad idea?
Nope I do it all the time. If you can hit mast of the Jumps and hold your line then you’ll be fine.
Myke
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Myke 4/20/2018 9:06am
4/20/2018 9:06am Edited Date/Time 4/20/2018 9:10am
UPSman334 wrote:
was watching a guy in c class last weekend on an old beat up RM 250 during practice he looked like an idiot, than he dumped...
was watching a guy in c class last weekend on an old beat up RM 250 during practice he looked like an idiot, than he dumped the bike off the start and flat out flew and won the moto lapping 3/4 of the other riders, laying it flat over every jump. Do you guys got this around you?
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Yup!
We have professional sandbaggers here!

I can not understand how someone who could be competetive in a higher class feels good about beating a bunch of people who are obviously alot slower than them.

A couple of times I checked the REM novice race results and I searched their names on the web. Some of them are former series winners of amatuer and expert races and some of the have been pro desert racers. It's stupid.
NW 253
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NW 253 4/20/2018 9:16am
4/20/2018 9:16am
ToolMaker wrote:
If you want to make a small fortune, start with a large fortune and open an MX track. If I was to open a track I...
If you want to make a small fortune, start with a large fortune and open an MX track.
If I was to open a track I think I'd do bracket racing. If your lap times are between 40-47
you race in this bracket, If your lap times are 47.01-55 you're in the next bracket. If you sign up
for 47.01-55 and turn in a lap of 40-47 DQ. And for good measure maybe a transponder somewhere
on the track in hiding just to check that the folks aren't slowing down at the last leg to keep under
required lap times. Nobody would be catagorized as A,B, or C so no worries as to being kept
out of A,B, or C signups at other tracks. This would keep everyone tight and make it fun.
OK, numbers are random but you get the picture. Since I don't have a large fortune, I won't do this.
TM

Woodland MX does this. In the winter on sunday they use to have qualifiers to see what class you would race in. And the kid that got last in the A main was so happy just to get in the A main. Thats the C rider that normally leaves the rest in C class. If you want to see the biggest sandbagging in the history of sandbagging go to dealers challenge weekend at Washougal.
feelit2morrow 4/20/2018 9:20am
4/20/2018 9:20am
Top 3 c rider, top 10 b rider. Race b class so I'm not around the carnag that in inevitable at the start of the c class.
FRANK121
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FRANK121 4/20/2018 9:21am
4/20/2018 9:21am
I remember when tracks enforced a rule if a "C" rider did the triples he moved up?
kaptkaos
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kaptkaos 4/20/2018 9:24am
4/20/2018 9:24am
I blame this on the promoters

They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races.

The flaggers should be smart enough to report sandbaggers, wait, what flaggers???


BobPA
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BobPA 4/20/2018 9:30am
4/20/2018 9:30am
ToolMaker wrote:
If you want to make a small fortune, start with a large fortune and open an MX track. If I was to open a track I...
If you want to make a small fortune, start with a large fortune and open an MX track.
If I was to open a track I think I'd do bracket racing. If your lap times are between 40-47
you race in this bracket, If your lap times are 47.01-55 you're in the next bracket. If you sign up
for 47.01-55 and turn in a lap of 40-47 DQ. And for good measure maybe a transponder somewhere
on the track in hiding just to check that the folks aren't slowing down at the last leg to keep under
required lap times. Nobody would be catagorized as A,B, or C so no worries as to being kept
out of A,B, or C signups at other tracks. This would keep everyone tight and make it fun.
OK, numbers are random but you get the picture. Since I don't have a large fortune, I won't do this.
TM

This would promote epic amounts of sandbagging, and would be impossible to enforce.
kpersonius264 4/20/2018 9:43am
4/20/2018 9:43am
kaptkaos wrote:
I blame this on the promoters They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races. The flaggers should be smart enough to report...
I blame this on the promoters

They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races.

The flaggers should be smart enough to report sandbaggers, wait, what flaggers???


YES! Unfortunately promoters don’t like bumping riders because they get butthurt and won’t come back to race. Then the promoter is losing money.

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FRANK121
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FRANK121 4/20/2018 9:49am
4/20/2018 9:49am
Dam sad when when your C rider is about the same lap time as your A riders?
Tracktor
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Tracktor 4/20/2018 9:52am
4/20/2018 9:52am
SIMX2 wrote:
C stands for Catastrophe!
Keith72 wrote:
Yup. I'm a vet c rider. It's scary. I'm thinking about practicing with the a/b guys because I feel like it would be safer. Is this...
Yup. I'm a vet c rider. It's scary. I'm thinking about practicing with the a/b guys because I feel like it would be safer. Is this a bad idea?
kpersonius264 wrote:
Nope I do it all the time. If you can hit mast of the Jumps and hold your line then you’ll be fine.
Yeah, it's really great when a Vet C rider clogs up the A/B practice and damn near gets landed on. Then get's off the track and bitches about the other riders blowing by him. If you want to ride B practice move up to B, period. Otherwise stay in your own moto. Everyone thinks they are fast enough to ride the A/B practices when they aren't.......................For the record I am a Vet B rider(for about 2 laps) and I usually stay outta the A/B practice as that's what my older kid rides and he is much faster than I. Watching all the idiots that think they should be out there in B when they shouldn't is nerve wracking..........
yak651
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yak651 4/20/2018 9:56am
4/20/2018 9:56am
I remember when there would be a list of riders that got moved up each year. Used to be top 10 in points, but now I think they let everyone police their selves (and it's not working), could be wrong but don't think they force anyone up anymore in D16 (or if they do it's not posted).
BarryMckockener 4/20/2018 10:00am
4/20/2018 10:00am
My local track they will kick you up in class mid day. You smoke everybody in C, well your second moto you're lining up with the B class. Even if you've made it halfway through a season with a points lead. But it's like playing a video game, you suck at first, then you adapt and can beat the A.I. and hardly anybody will go up in difficulty and start the process over, unless you are forced to.
kaptkaos
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kaptkaos 4/20/2018 10:03am
4/20/2018 10:03am
kaptkaos wrote:
I blame this on the promoters They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races. The flaggers should be smart enough to report...
I blame this on the promoters

They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races.

The flaggers should be smart enough to report sandbaggers, wait, what flaggers???


kpersonius264 wrote:
YES! Unfortunately promoters don’t like bumping riders because they get butthurt and won’t come back to race. Then the promoter is losing money.
Yeah well when someone lands on someone who isnt jumping, either in practice or a race and hurts or kills them the promoter eventually loses his insurance, so whats the difference?

I think thats why more tracks are just doing open practice for $25 and calling it a day.

Even then, I see a bunch of B riders sneaking into beginners sessions and flying over their heads.
1
Tracktor
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Tracktor 4/20/2018 10:16am
4/20/2018 10:16am
kaptkaos wrote:
I blame this on the promoters They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races. The flaggers should be smart enough to report...
I blame this on the promoters

They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races.

The flaggers should be smart enough to report sandbaggers, wait, what flaggers???


kpersonius264 wrote:
YES! Unfortunately promoters don’t like bumping riders because they get butthurt and won’t come back to race. Then the promoter is losing money.
kaptkaos wrote:
Yeah well when someone lands on someone who isnt jumping, either in practice or a race and hurts or kills them the promoter eventually loses his...
Yeah well when someone lands on someone who isnt jumping, either in practice or a race and hurts or kills them the promoter eventually loses his insurance, so whats the difference?

I think thats why more tracks are just doing open practice for $25 and calling it a day.

Even then, I see a bunch of B riders sneaking into beginners sessions and flying over their heads.
Between both my boys we have 4 injuries & hospital trips due to mixed gates of C/B. Both my boys ride B classes. One was from a lapped rider cutting from on side of the track to the other just before the finish line right in front of my son. Boom collarbone. Last month it was a C rider cross jumped in front of my other boy and was landed on. Broken wrist. They moved to B to get away from squirrels but mixed gates just makes it worse. No way around it though.........
Hammer 663s
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Hammer 663s 4/20/2018 10:27am
4/20/2018 10:27am
Sigh, wait till you are both slow AND old. I'm 55, Vet Int or Novice depending on the day. I have to practice with the 30+ Open group at my local series, and the race group is 40+, so I got 15 years on some of them. Hell, I got kids older than 30. I don't want to be on the same track as a 30+ expert in practice. It's no fun for me or them. Then they build the track for the fast guys (5 gap doubles last night) so I'm stuck singling around while people fly on by.

Might be done racing and just be a practice queen at the private track I have access to. I do this for fun, that's it.

Mike
SoCalMX70
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SoCalMX70 4/20/2018 10:48am
4/20/2018 10:48am
kaptkaos wrote:
I blame this on the promoters They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races. The flaggers should be smart enough to report...
I blame this on the promoters

They should see the lap times, they should watch the actual races.

The flaggers should be smart enough to report sandbaggers, wait, what flaggers???


kpersonius264 wrote:
YES! Unfortunately promoters don’t like bumping riders because they get butthurt and won’t come back to race. Then the promoter is losing money.
This right here is the biggest problem I've seen in my short time back into racing. Witnessed it first hand. Grown ass men throwing fits when being asked about what their class has been in other races/series and being told they should move up... After they just smoked everyone in the first moto by over 2 minutes.

And guess what? The promoter bends to them because the asshole sandbagger threatens to leave and demand a refund. I'd really hate to be a promoter... Sure, I could rule with an iron fist, then I would just get small turn outs. People suck.
steveada
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steveada 4/20/2018 11:03am
4/20/2018 11:03am
FRANK121 wrote:
Dam sad when when your C rider is about the same lap time as your A riders?
People always bring this up, and it is true that the C class has the widest range of riders in it from true beginners, long time riders that aren't all that fast, and riders that are transitioning and getting pretty fast. However, the best C riders are not faster than the best B riders and couldn't compete against A riders. looking through archives of LL regionals, on average top 10 C riders times would put them about 11th-20th in the B class, with rare C riders that would just enter top ten in B class based upon fastest lap times. What I find more interesting, and is backed up by the times in the races I looked at, is that many times the fastest B riders are faster than the fastest A riders. So in my opinion, it is the B class that is full of sandbaggers that skew the classes. If those top 15 B riders would move to A class where they belong, A class would be come a great competitive class. B class would be opened up for the top 15 C riders to come in, making the B class a great competitive class. The C class would then be filled with true C riders and become a more competitive class. Why does nobody ever bag on the B riders that consistently are on par with the best in the A class and go straight from B class to turning pro?
TheNewOriginal 4/20/2018 11:03am
4/20/2018 11:03am
ToolMaker wrote:
If you want to make a small fortune, start with a large fortune and open an MX track. If I was to open a track I...
If you want to make a small fortune, start with a large fortune and open an MX track.
If I was to open a track I think I'd do bracket racing. If your lap times are between 40-47
you race in this bracket, If your lap times are 47.01-55 you're in the next bracket. If you sign up
for 47.01-55 and turn in a lap of 40-47 DQ. And for good measure maybe a transponder somewhere
on the track in hiding just to check that the folks aren't slowing down at the last leg to keep under
required lap times. Nobody would be catagorized as A,B, or C so no worries as to being kept
out of A,B, or C signups at other tracks. This would keep everyone tight and make it fun.
OK, numbers are random but you get the picture. Since I don't have a large fortune, I won't do this.
TM

Excellent idea. That could also reduce the number of classes by eliminating the vet classes and several of the mini-age groups. More track time for everyone, more competitive racing, and would not have to spend 14 hours at the track to race for 20 minutes of track time.
1
FRANK121
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FRANK121 4/20/2018 11:17am
4/20/2018 11:17am Edited Date/Time 4/20/2018 11:19am
They all want to cherry pick that C class and get that Loretta's Title. The problem is now C class has basically become another A class that just gives out trophies instead of money. lot of fast guys/kids and lots of factory support.
bultokid
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bultokid 4/20/2018 11:27am
4/20/2018 11:27am
Bunch of poons.....I'll get fried but wgaf, was always much better baseball player than mx'er but damn I love mx. In baseball NO ONE wants to stay down in class that is worth a shit. The goal is/was always to move up as fast as you could, play with the best against the best, not sandbag and beat up on lesser players, thats pure 100% pussy....scouts won't even bother looking at you unless you're playing with the big dogs. I see it all the time at vintage races..lol...I'd rather get 28th in the Int class than get some plastic trophy for Top 5 in Novice. Someone nailed it above, get rid of any contingency payouts until get in B or above class

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