Time for a riders union?

ando
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ando 4/14/2018 9:49pm
4/14/2018 9:49pm
logan_140 wrote:
Ricky and reed had talked about a riders union awhile back... is it time for one? Possibly career #3 ruined due to the fim and wada..
And yet hundreds of riders who competed in SX and MX over the last five years or so managed to stay clean. Wonder how they did it?
2WheelsForTheMasses 4/15/2018 12:34am
4/15/2018 12:34am
GuyB wrote:
How would a rider's union make a bit of difference here?
Look at the NFL and its players union and see what positive testing results started with to how they are dealt with today. Players union can be fair and partial to one another and work within their network to figure out a fair and simple solution to positive drug tests. They can be taken seriously. Throwing out 4 year bans is very unreasonable and without a riders union to come together to protect one another is like giving a blind man a Ferrari. Wada and usada testing isnt the only gate in town and who makes them the end all of all testing options out there? The riders are the ones who put up their lives for entertainment and they should have some say in how rules are written. Nobody is on the side of the riders. It's high time someone understands that. Appealing Usada (Wada) is a waist of time and no team has the power to over throw the outcome and thats because Feld made it that way. Riders have no choice but to deal with it until they decide to ban together. It would take all riders to take part in such a union and it would take a minimum of 10% of their own salaries but end result would be a power that Feld would now have to work with such a union and not just control it. More importantly it would now have an impact on such importance of HEALTH CARE, PAY and SAFETY OF TRACKS which in my opinion are more important than that of testing.
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JB 19
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JB 19 4/15/2018 8:34am
4/15/2018 8:34am
logan_140 wrote:
Ricky and reed had talked about a riders union awhile back... is it time for one? Possibly career #3 ruined due to the fim and wada..
Mit12 wrote:
You probably blame cops for criminals getting goimg to jail?. FIM, AMA and WADA are not to blame. The riders that used banned substances are at...
You probably blame cops for criminals getting goimg to jail?.

FIM, AMA and WADA are not to blame. The riders that used banned substances are at fault. A riders union would not help them.
You ever roll through a stop sign? Let me guess, NEVER right? Well, what if one day you did and got caught and lost your drivers licence for 4 years. You would have nobody to blame but yourself for breaking the law and being a criminal.

Maybe a 150$ dollar ticket would be more fair for the first offense, but in this case no licence for you for 4 years, criminal.
MR. X
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MR. X 4/15/2018 8:40am
4/15/2018 8:40am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 8:42am
JB 19 wrote:
You ever roll through a stop sign? Let me guess, NEVER right? Well, what if one day you did and got caught and lost your drivers...
You ever roll through a stop sign? Let me guess, NEVER right? Well, what if one day you did and got caught and lost your drivers licence for 4 years. You would have nobody to blame but yourself for breaking the law and being a criminal.

Maybe a 150$ dollar ticket would be more fair for the first offense, but in this case no licence for you for 4 years, criminal.
How does rolling through a stop sign equal illegal drugs and not something like jumping on a caution ? Or it just doesn't fit your argument ?

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Flatliner
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Flatliner 4/15/2018 8:51am
4/15/2018 8:51am
JB 19 wrote:
You ever roll through a stop sign? Let me guess, NEVER right? Well, what if one day you did and got caught and lost your drivers...
You ever roll through a stop sign? Let me guess, NEVER right? Well, what if one day you did and got caught and lost your drivers licence for 4 years. You would have nobody to blame but yourself for breaking the law and being a criminal.

Maybe a 150$ dollar ticket would be more fair for the first offense, but in this case no licence for you for 4 years, criminal.
MR. X wrote:
How does rolling through a stop sign equal illegal drugs and not something like jumping on a caution ? Or it just doesn't fit your argument...
How does rolling through a stop sign equal illegal drugs and not something like jumping on a caution ? Or it just doesn't fit your argument ?
Dude, seriously. Look what he took.

Calling it an illegal drug insane.
JB 19
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JB 19 4/15/2018 9:09am
4/15/2018 9:09am
JB 19 wrote:
You ever roll through a stop sign? Let me guess, NEVER right? Well, what if one day you did and got caught and lost your drivers...
You ever roll through a stop sign? Let me guess, NEVER right? Well, what if one day you did and got caught and lost your drivers licence for 4 years. You would have nobody to blame but yourself for breaking the law and being a criminal.

Maybe a 150$ dollar ticket would be more fair for the first offense, but in this case no licence for you for 4 years, criminal.
MR. X wrote:
How does rolling through a stop sign equal illegal drugs and not something like jumping on a caution ? Or it just doesn't fit your argument...
How does rolling through a stop sign equal illegal drugs and not something like jumping on a caution ? Or it just doesn't fit your argument ?
It was a preworkout energy booster. Maybe guys like you should step away from the extremes on each end of the spectrum. He wasn't blood doping in his motorhome or eating anabolic steroid snacks. He basically ran a stop sign.
JB 19
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JB 19 4/15/2018 9:12am
4/15/2018 9:12am
And for the record, it wasn't illegal drugs. What he took is legal to buy, just not allowed by the rules of this sport. So, actually rolling through a stop sign IS ILLEGAL and could possibly get someone killed.
MR. X
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MR. X 4/15/2018 9:27am
4/15/2018 9:27am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 9:27am
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all this . Banned substance is a banned substance ,no grey areas to allow for special treatment. I'm all in favor of them reducing what substances should be banned but until it's lifted ,he cheated as far as the rules go.
JB 19
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JB 19 4/15/2018 9:39am
4/15/2018 9:39am
MR. X wrote:
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all...
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all this . Banned substance is a banned substance ,no grey areas to allow for special treatment. I'm all in favor of them reducing what substances should be banned but until it's lifted ,he cheated as far as the rules go.
Just like rolling through a stop sign is an illegal act. Against the law. How hard is it for you to also comprehend that? You dismiss running a stop sign, which actually does get people killed every year, but want to call Broc's GNC type supplement an illegal drug. Lol.
MR. X
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MR. X 4/15/2018 9:46am
4/15/2018 9:46am
MR. X wrote:
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all...
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all this . Banned substance is a banned substance ,no grey areas to allow for special treatment. I'm all in favor of them reducing what substances should be banned but until it's lifted ,he cheated as far as the rules go.
JB 19 wrote:
Just like rolling through a stop sign is an illegal act. Against the law. How hard is it for you to also comprehend that? You dismiss...
Just like rolling through a stop sign is an illegal act. Against the law. How hard is it for you to also comprehend that? You dismiss running a stop sign, which actually does get people killed every year, but want to call Broc's GNC type supplement an illegal drug. Lol.
Running a stop sign doesn't always result in getting a ticket ,just like we've already seen in SX this year with some guys getting penalized and some not , that's what happens when you don't practice zero tolerance . Or the time the points leader got popped for using illegal fuel and then got his points back because of who he is. I'm just in favor of supporting the rules for everyone equally ,i don't like the top guys getting special treatment .
logan_140
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logan_140 4/15/2018 9:47am
4/15/2018 9:47am
MR. X wrote:
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all...
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all this . Banned substance is a banned substance ,no grey areas to allow for special treatment. I'm all in favor of them reducing what substances should be banned but until it's lifted ,he cheated as far as the rules go.
That’s pretty much what I’m saying, the penalty is WAY to much.. an nfl players first substance violation is a 4 game suspension and it goes up from there.. our sport is a joke in this aspect. Not to mention riders get paid 3 quarters less then some nfl players...
MR. X
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MR. X 4/15/2018 9:59am
4/15/2018 9:59am
logan_140 wrote:
That’s pretty much what I’m saying, the penalty is WAY to much.. an nfl players first substance violation is a 4 game suspension and it goes...
That’s pretty much what I’m saying, the penalty is WAY to much.. an nfl players first substance violation is a 4 game suspension and it goes up from there.. our sport is a joke in this aspect. Not to mention riders get paid 3 quarters less then some nfl players...
Someone could make the argument that it takes a certain amount of time for the benefits of taking X to disappear . It would be difficult to make different schedule drugs like the legal system ,what if they get popped by something that has no classification currently . Maybe they blanket the penalty for all substances because they are lazy on their end .
RG1
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RG1 4/15/2018 10:02am
4/15/2018 10:02am
How exactly have WADA and especially the FIM ruined anyone's career. The FIM have introduced proper drug testing to the sport, which is a necessity if you want the sport to be taken seriously. Stewart didn't file a TUE even though he knew he needed one, no-one to blame but himself. Clason did file a TUE but admitted that he'd carried on racing without knowing or checking if he was covered, which is extremely negligent and stupid given that it was virtually the exact same thing that JS7 got busted for. I don't know much about the Tickle scenario, but the excuse that he didn't mean it or he didn't know just isn't good enough. As a professional rider if you eat/drink/take something without checking that there's nothing in it that's going to make you fail a drugs test, then again' you ever been extremely negligent and you have to face the consequences
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RG1 4/15/2018 10:04am
4/15/2018 10:04am
MR. X wrote:
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all...
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all this . Banned substance is a banned substance ,no grey areas to allow for special treatment. I'm all in favor of them reducing what substances should be banned but until it's lifted ,he cheated as far as the rules go.
logan_140 wrote:
That’s pretty much what I’m saying, the penalty is WAY to much.. an nfl players first substance violation is a 4 game suspension and it goes...
That’s pretty much what I’m saying, the penalty is WAY to much.. an nfl players first substance violation is a 4 game suspension and it goes up from there.. our sport is a joke in this aspect. Not to mention riders get paid 3 quarters less then some nfl players...
Is our sport a joke? Or is the NFL a joke for only giving drugs cheats a couple of weeks as a ban. I definitely think the latter
EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 4/15/2018 10:16am
4/15/2018 10:16am
What power do you think riders would have?

Go on strike? So, their employers are supposed to just be cool with that? They all have different employers. They have contracts to fulfill.....no race - no pay. You violate your contract.

Not to mention the AMA rulebook specifically forbids a rider or group of riders to intentionally delay or stop an event. So you strike, you get suspended by the AMA

Lastly, the "haves" will not risk everything for the "have nots"
2WheelsForTheMasses 4/15/2018 10:23am
4/15/2018 10:23am
EngIceDave wrote:
What power do you think riders would have? Go on strike? So, their employers are supposed to just be cool with that? They all have different...
What power do you think riders would have?

Go on strike? So, their employers are supposed to just be cool with that? They all have different employers. They have contracts to fulfill.....no race - no pay. You violate your contract.

Not to mention the AMA rulebook specifically forbids a rider or group of riders to intentionally delay or stop an event. So you strike, you get suspended by the AMA

Lastly, the "haves" will not risk everything for the "have nots"
You might want to get out and start living buddy...the world you live in is very bleak.
2WheelsForTheMasses 4/15/2018 10:27am
4/15/2018 10:27am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 10:43am
Does nobody understand that this sport today isnt taken seriously from a world front? Wada approved or not its still considered a good ole' boy sport. This is not a big sport by any means and to see some of our best riders ousted by a Wada list is ridiculous.

So many of you want to hop on the "he shouldnt have done it" band wagon and let him be crucified over a drug that non of you have probably heard of in your lifetime. We dont know the whole story but Im sure this was not an intentional situation. To allow Feld and Wada/Usada control these situations is down right wrong.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 4/15/2018 10:51am
4/15/2018 10:51am
I don't have to know about it, do I?

Isn't that WADA/USADA's job?

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logan_140
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logan_140 4/15/2018 10:51am
4/15/2018 10:51am
MR. X wrote:
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all...
He took a substance that is not allowed to be taken ,how hard is that to comprehend? He could have checked it first and avoided all this . Banned substance is a banned substance ,no grey areas to allow for special treatment. I'm all in favor of them reducing what substances should be banned but until it's lifted ,he cheated as far as the rules go.
logan_140 wrote:
That’s pretty much what I’m saying, the penalty is WAY to much.. an nfl players first substance violation is a 4 game suspension and it goes...
That’s pretty much what I’m saying, the penalty is WAY to much.. an nfl players first substance violation is a 4 game suspension and it goes up from there.. our sport is a joke in this aspect. Not to mention riders get paid 3 quarters less then some nfl players...
RG1 wrote:
Is our sport a joke? Or is the NFL a joke for only giving drugs cheats a couple of weeks as a ban. I definitely think...
Is our sport a joke? Or is the NFL a joke for only giving drugs cheats a couple of weeks as a ban. I definitely think the latter
Like i said that’s the FIRST offense. It goes up after that. Substance abuse counts as weed too in the nfl.
MotoX85
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MotoX85 4/15/2018 10:54am
4/15/2018 10:54am
The only problem I see here is he should be allowed to race until the B sample is tested.

Can you imagine if his B sample comes back clean and he lost all the points of the races he missed.


Or Broc could just tell WADA hes a Russian athlete and they would drop everything saying they made a mistake. I thought WADA was done when they let all the Russians compete in the Olympics after 28 of them tested positive. How do they have any credibility after that.
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EngIceDave 4/15/2018 11:31am
4/15/2018 11:31am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 11:31am
I understand your point, but here's the flaw and why they don't....

If you let the competitor to keep competing, and his B sample comes back dirty, you allowed a known (suspected) competitor to compete.

It's not just moto they do this, it's all WADA/USADA competitions.

I know someone who competes in world level cycling and has to report and test all the time, they know the rules, it's their job to know the rules, and they know the consequences as well
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Frank 4/15/2018 12:30pm
4/15/2018 12:30pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2018 12:39pm
Why are substances available for sale at walmart to the general public banned in this sport? And wtf does dirt bike racing have to due with the Olympics and its rules? Yes I blame the police for the person committing the crime in this one. The police are idiots in this sport.

King KTM
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King KTM 4/15/2018 1:41pm
4/15/2018 1:41pm
lumpy790 wrote:
I think it would bennifit riders voice to be heard about the tracks. Righ after RV broke his leg on a jump the riders had been...
I think it would bennifit riders voice to be heard about the tracks. Righ after RV broke his leg on a jump the riders had been complaining about there was some top riders talking about making the union and word is after a few phone calls from above that was squashed.
This is pretty much how this goes in most sports and businesses.
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hamncheeze 4/15/2018 6:15pm
4/15/2018 6:15pm
For the record, no one has said officially that Tickle will get a 4 year suspension. Just that 4 years is the maximum for the offence. It is very probable after he files his appeal that he ends up with 18 months.
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King KTM 4/15/2018 8:26pm
4/15/2018 8:26pm
MotoX85 wrote:
The only problem I see here is he should be allowed to race until the B sample is tested. Can you imagine if his B sample...
The only problem I see here is he should be allowed to race until the B sample is tested.

Can you imagine if his B sample comes back clean and he lost all the points of the races he missed.


Or Broc could just tell WADA hes a Russian athlete and they would drop everything saying they made a mistake. I thought WADA was done when they let all the Russians compete in the Olympics after 28 of them tested positive. How do they have any credibility after that.
How long does it take to test a sample? I have a company car and I am required to take random tests usually about 4 or 5 a year, I walk in pee in the cup and they have the results in about 30 minutes. However to the original statement, I am not allowed to leave the testing facility in my company car until the results come back, so I guess that goes along with can’t ride until test comes back.
RCMXracing
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RCMXracing 4/16/2018 9:07pm
4/16/2018 9:07pm
2WheelsForTheMasses wrote:
Look at the NFL and its players union and see what positive testing results started with to how they are dealt with today. Players union can...
Look at the NFL and its players union and see what positive testing results started with to how they are dealt with today. Players union can be fair and partial to one another and work within their network to figure out a fair and simple solution to positive drug tests. They can be taken seriously. Throwing out 4 year bans is very unreasonable and without a riders union to come together to protect one another is like giving a blind man a Ferrari. Wada and usada testing isnt the only gate in town and who makes them the end all of all testing options out there? The riders are the ones who put up their lives for entertainment and they should have some say in how rules are written. Nobody is on the side of the riders. It's high time someone understands that. Appealing Usada (Wada) is a waist of time and no team has the power to over throw the outcome and thats because Feld made it that way. Riders have no choice but to deal with it until they decide to ban together. It would take all riders to take part in such a union and it would take a minimum of 10% of their own salaries but end result would be a power that Feld would now have to work with such a union and not just control it. More importantly it would now have an impact on such importance of HEALTH CARE, PAY and SAFETY OF TRACKS which in my opinion are more important than that of testing.
Nailed it. The riders are slaves to Feld and MX Sports. The AMA and FIM are complicit. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they did unionize. I suspect the above mentioned would lose their shit...which would be telling.
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Construction
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Construction 4/17/2018 3:16am
4/17/2018 3:16am
No one is forcing them to ride for Feld they are free to go get another job any where they want. Or they could ride for Feld under their rules. It’s all very simple
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 4/17/2018 6:21am
4/17/2018 6:21am
KirkChandler wrote:
In stick and ball sports the unions have negotiated the PED penalties. So in the NFL it’s 4 games not 4 years. Even though they use...
In stick and ball sports the unions have negotiated the PED penalties. So in the NFL it’s 4 games not 4 years. Even though they use the same type of testing and banned substances.

I don’t see a riders union happening in an individual sport. There’s too much discrepancy between the Tomacs/Roczen/Andersen’s and the Ray/Pipes/Enticknaps for anything to happen as far as collective bargaining.
hamncheeze wrote:
Problem here is that stick and ball sports have made their penalties quite lenient and therefore there is still a lot of doping going on. Somewhere...
Problem here is that stick and ball sports have made their penalties quite lenient and therefore there is still a lot of doping going on. Somewhere between the IOC-type of penalty of 4 years and the slap on the wrist NFL penalty is the correct amount.

These stories always hit me close to home because of the time I raced through in bicycle racing. Back in the day each country's federation determined the penalties which meant a Canadian or American rider got 2 years while the Italian got 6 months backdated so it fell mostly in the off-season. I welcomed the changes to the WADA code to unify the penalties across the nations, but in many ways they are very harsh. But sports like cycling, nordic skiing, and track and field have given the Olympics a lot of black eyes. Personally I think the penalties should be graded in terms of the performance enhancer. Some kind of stimulant like the Tickle case should be 6-12 months, call it level 1 offence. Heavier things like cortisone and HGH should be 2 years, say a level 2. And then getting into blood manipulation with EPO or injecting stored blood should be 4 years, call them level 3. offences. And for repeat offenders of either level 2 or level 3 the athletes should be banned for life.
I concur
RCMXracing
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RCMXracing 4/17/2018 7:37am
4/17/2018 7:37am
Construction wrote:
No one is forcing them to ride for Feld they are free to go get another job any where they want. Or they could ride for...
No one is forcing them to ride for Feld they are free to go get another job any where they want. Or they could ride for Feld under their rules. It’s all very simple
When you are in a specialized field it’s not practical to just leave. For these riders it’s their life work with large sums of dollars and sweat equity spent. No different than sports leagues. They’re not hanging drywall and are free to go hang drywall somewhere else for another employer. Not that simple.
tprice07
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tprice07 4/17/2018 8:10am
4/17/2018 8:10am
Maybe James could start one...he has some time on his hands.

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