Chase format discussion on Main Event Moto podcast

aees
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2/13/2018 7:57am
I think a good compromise to a full reset could be:

1. Cut points in half, half way through the season
Or
2. Give out less points in early season, increase towards end

A1 to first 8 rounds, 14 points to rider 1, 12 to rider 2. 10 to rider 3 and then through in some 1 or 2 pointers for place 13-16 and maybe zero for rest (they still ride for cash and hoping someone falls, so no one more than current will just leave the track because they are in place 17). Then go back up after round 10.

They are going to have to do something and i think smaller changes is more easy to adapt to then just resetting the whole scoring at mid season. We are dealing with a lot of races for a single rider to handle. Even if Jason is likely to screw up a race letting someone else in, it is just boring to know that kind of action is needed to make it interesting again.
hamncheeze
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2/13/2018 7:59am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2018 6:36pm
My biggest issue with Blair's argument is that he is looking at it from an "entertainment" angle. The riders and teams, they look at it from a "sporting" angle. There is a huge difference.

Problem for us real fans is Feld Entertainment is definitely not looking at it from a sporting perspective. That is obvious. And now they are going to use their minions like Daniel Blair and RC to push their agenda. Make no mistake, Feld wants to turn this into a chase. They can have Ralphie Boy doing promo ads spouting off cliches and nonsense to try to wind up the ticket sales. FS1 will run ads all week long about EPIC battles for the king of the chase. They don't care about the history of the sport, or the actual sporting component of Supercross. Obviously I'd still watch and attend SX races but if it went to a chase format I would never look at the champion with the same respect. He only had to be good over 5 races. Not 17.
Park Boys
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2/13/2018 8:15am
Was it Jeff Gordon who said we are no longer racers but entertainers now?
TXDirt
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2/13/2018 8:20am
Not a single idea in this thread makes the ON THE TRACK RACING better. That is what is lacking in SX. No chase format, drop 2 bad results or anything else fixes the on track racing. It's follow the leader bullshit just lugging the bike around.

Racing kinda should involve passing. I know. We don't see it a lot and you forget what it looks like. We don't have racing. We have more or less timed races of follow the leader.

We need more passing. More racing.

Just do two things and you will see better racing. I've been beating this drum forever.

1. Give some championship points in the qualifiers.

2. Invert the gate pick order for the mains. Last qualifier gets first gate pick etc.

Too much of a 20 minute race is determined in the first 3 seconds of the race and it leads to what we have now. Which is super boring races. Fans leave early during the mains. That's how bad it is folks.

If you give out some points in the qualifiers then no one will be tempted to sandbag.

Then invert the gate picks so just maybe you end up with more variability off the start.

It's so simple. Screw chase formats and all these other things that do nothing to address the racing you see on the track. Start at the track and you won't need to do anything else.

There, I just fixed SX racing for you.

The Shop

BobbyM
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2/13/2018 8:32am
The popularity of sx was never more mainstream than when McGrath reeled off win after win, espn, Jay Leno, GMA etc. Blows this chase shit theory right out the door.
Johnny Depp
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2/13/2018 9:06am
TXDirt wrote:
Not a single idea in this thread makes the ON THE TRACK RACING better. That is what is lacking in SX. No chase format, drop 2...
Not a single idea in this thread makes the ON THE TRACK RACING better. That is what is lacking in SX. No chase format, drop 2 bad results or anything else fixes the on track racing. It's follow the leader bullshit just lugging the bike around.

Racing kinda should involve passing. I know. We don't see it a lot and you forget what it looks like. We don't have racing. We have more or less timed races of follow the leader.

We need more passing. More racing.

Just do two things and you will see better racing. I've been beating this drum forever.

1. Give some championship points in the qualifiers.

2. Invert the gate pick order for the mains. Last qualifier gets first gate pick etc.

Too much of a 20 minute race is determined in the first 3 seconds of the race and it leads to what we have now. Which is super boring races. Fans leave early during the mains. That's how bad it is folks.

If you give out some points in the qualifiers then no one will be tempted to sandbag.

Then invert the gate picks so just maybe you end up with more variability off the start.

It's so simple. Screw chase formats and all these other things that do nothing to address the racing you see on the track. Start at the track and you won't need to do anything else.

There, I just fixed SX racing for you.
On track racing is a horse of a different color than a close points race.

I can't believe we are on the same team (after you pushing for a inverted MotoGP style system for years IIRC) but yes I called out inverted gate picks on page 2. We have seen several races this year, including last weekend, where the start changed lot's of rider's fortunes. I'm not totally convinced that gate pick would make much difference, but I'd try it before a Chase.

When you mention points for qualifiers, do you mean heats? I believe that any track time in the night show should be for points, and anything that pays points better be in the night show. I'd be OK with qualifying hot laps being in the show for points, maybe on a 1/2 scale, the same would go for heats.



Johnny Depp
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2/13/2018 9:10am
BobbyM wrote:
The popularity of sx was never more mainstream than when McGrath reeled off win after win, espn, Jay Leno, GMA etc. Blows this chase shit theory...
The popularity of sx was never more mainstream than when McGrath reeled off win after win, espn, Jay Leno, GMA etc. Blows this chase shit theory right out the door.
Promoters need to promote their rider's into Stars with a face and a personality, not just a helmet and a number racing around.
TXDirt
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2/13/2018 9:20am
TXDirt wrote:
Not a single idea in this thread makes the ON THE TRACK RACING better. That is what is lacking in SX. No chase format, drop 2...
Not a single idea in this thread makes the ON THE TRACK RACING better. That is what is lacking in SX. No chase format, drop 2 bad results or anything else fixes the on track racing. It's follow the leader bullshit just lugging the bike around.

Racing kinda should involve passing. I know. We don't see it a lot and you forget what it looks like. We don't have racing. We have more or less timed races of follow the leader.

We need more passing. More racing.

Just do two things and you will see better racing. I've been beating this drum forever.

1. Give some championship points in the qualifiers.

2. Invert the gate pick order for the mains. Last qualifier gets first gate pick etc.

Too much of a 20 minute race is determined in the first 3 seconds of the race and it leads to what we have now. Which is super boring races. Fans leave early during the mains. That's how bad it is folks.

If you give out some points in the qualifiers then no one will be tempted to sandbag.

Then invert the gate picks so just maybe you end up with more variability off the start.

It's so simple. Screw chase formats and all these other things that do nothing to address the racing you see on the track. Start at the track and you won't need to do anything else.

There, I just fixed SX racing for you.
On track racing is a horse of a different color than a close points race. I can't believe we are on the same team (after you...
On track racing is a horse of a different color than a close points race.

I can't believe we are on the same team (after you pushing for a inverted MotoGP style system for years IIRC) but yes I called out inverted gate picks on page 2. We have seen several races this year, including last weekend, where the start changed lot's of rider's fortunes. I'm not totally convinced that gate pick would make much difference, but I'd try it before a Chase.

When you mention points for qualifiers, do you mean heats? I believe that any track time in the night show should be for points, and anything that pays points better be in the night show. I'd be OK with qualifying hot laps being in the show for points, maybe on a 1/2 scale, the same would go for heats.



Yes, I'm talking the two heat races. Pay some championship points to prevent any sandbagging.

Then invert gate picks for the main event.

Every other idea so far does nothing to address the on track racing. In fact, the three main format being experimented with only further exasperates the problem of the start being even more important because of the short mains.

Might as well just do motorcycle drag races because the first 90 feet of the race is determining 85% of the outcome.

That's what needs to be fixed. And not with a bunch of gimmicky shit.

The general format of SX is fine. Heats, LCQ and then the exciting gate drop for the main event. Just implement those two things I mentioned and the on track racing will be much improved. Seems like a win win for everyone.
dkg
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2/13/2018 9:21am
KennyT wrote:
Yes to the last question. I have skipped many Vegas rounds when the title was locked up a few races beforehand. I’ll still watch it in...
Yes to the last question. I have skipped many Vegas rounds when the title was locked up a few races beforehand. I’ll still watch it in tv to see how my fantasy team does but there is a total lack of drama at the finale when there is not a title at stake
To each his own. I've been to Vegas many times. Both when there was a title in play and at times when it was not. I'll admit that when the title is in play, it is a little more exciting. I really go just for love of the sport, have fun in Vegas and to see the event. (Of course, I went to both of the recent Glen Helen poorly attended MXGPs too.) For me, I don't think a chase that artificially puts the title into play would have any affect on my decision to go or not go. Frankly, if there was a chase and someone other than the rider with the most points won the title, I'd feel a little cheated and like the integrity of the title had been devalued. I guess I am just not willing to exchange that core value for the artificially induced excitement of the chase.
2/13/2018 9:21am
I'm tried of all these chicken little's running around saying supercross is broken and needs to be fixed.
BobPA
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2/13/2018 9:24am
TXDirt wrote:
Yes, I'm talking the two heat races. Pay some championship points to prevent any sandbagging. Then invert gate picks for the main event. Every other idea...
Yes, I'm talking the two heat races. Pay some championship points to prevent any sandbagging.

Then invert gate picks for the main event.

Every other idea so far does nothing to address the on track racing. In fact, the three main format being experimented with only further exasperates the problem of the start being even more important because of the short mains.

Might as well just do motorcycle drag races because the first 90 feet of the race is determining 85% of the outcome.

That's what needs to be fixed. And not with a bunch of gimmicky shit.

The general format of SX is fine. Heats, LCQ and then the exciting gate drop for the main event. Just implement those two things I mentioned and the on track racing will be much improved. Seems like a win win for everyone.
Have you bothered to watch any racing this year? It has been excellent. Inverting gate picks is the epitome of "gimmicky shit."
early
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2/13/2018 9:29am
BobPA wrote:
Have you bothered to watch any racing this year? It has been excellent. Inverting gate picks is the epitome of "gimmicky shit."
This
2/13/2018 9:42am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2018 9:42am
A chase-style format makes no sense in dirtbike racing because a playoff at the end of the series renders the first part of the series meaningless, and it punishes the rider(s) who get wins. Even if the top 7 go to a playoff, the riders are only going to do what they have to do to get in the top 7. They are not going to risk pushing it in the first part of the series because the only thing that will matter is the title and with it, the money and name in the record books.
kkawboy14
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2/13/2018 9:44am
There will be a Chase if the champion is crowned 3 races before the end of the season, several seasons in a row.
TXDirt
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2/13/2018 11:04am
BobPA wrote:
Have you bothered to watch any racing this year? It has been excellent. Inverting gate picks is the epitome of "gimmicky shit."
Please explain how it's gimmicky? You still get exciting heat races. You still get a main event gate drop.

You sound like a person who doesn't like to change anything because "that's the way it's always been done". Whistling

aees
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2/13/2018 12:01pm
TXDirt wrote:
Not a single idea in this thread makes the ON THE TRACK RACING better. That is what is lacking in SX. No chase format, drop 2...
Not a single idea in this thread makes the ON THE TRACK RACING better. That is what is lacking in SX. No chase format, drop 2 bad results or anything else fixes the on track racing. It's follow the leader bullshit just lugging the bike around.

Racing kinda should involve passing. I know. We don't see it a lot and you forget what it looks like. We don't have racing. We have more or less timed races of follow the leader.

We need more passing. More racing.

Just do two things and you will see better racing. I've been beating this drum forever.

1. Give some championship points in the qualifiers.

2. Invert the gate pick order for the mains. Last qualifier gets first gate pick etc.

Too much of a 20 minute race is determined in the first 3 seconds of the race and it leads to what we have now. Which is super boring races. Fans leave early during the mains. That's how bad it is folks.

If you give out some points in the qualifiers then no one will be tempted to sandbag.

Then invert the gate picks so just maybe you end up with more variability off the start.

It's so simple. Screw chase formats and all these other things that do nothing to address the racing you see on the track. Start at the track and you won't need to do anything else.

There, I just fixed SX racing for you.
On track racing is a horse of a different color than a close points race. I can't believe we are on the same team (after you...
On track racing is a horse of a different color than a close points race.

I can't believe we are on the same team (after you pushing for a inverted MotoGP style system for years IIRC) but yes I called out inverted gate picks on page 2. We have seen several races this year, including last weekend, where the start changed lot's of rider's fortunes. I'm not totally convinced that gate pick would make much difference, but I'd try it before a Chase.

When you mention points for qualifiers, do you mean heats? I believe that any track time in the night show should be for points, and anything that pays points better be in the night show. I'd be OK with qualifying hot laps being in the show for points, maybe on a 1/2 scale, the same would go for heats.



TXDirt wrote:
Yes, I'm talking the two heat races. Pay some championship points to prevent any sandbagging. Then invert gate picks for the main event. Every other idea...
Yes, I'm talking the two heat races. Pay some championship points to prevent any sandbagging.

Then invert gate picks for the main event.

Every other idea so far does nothing to address the on track racing. In fact, the three main format being experimented with only further exasperates the problem of the start being even more important because of the short mains.

Might as well just do motorcycle drag races because the first 90 feet of the race is determining 85% of the outcome.

That's what needs to be fixed. And not with a bunch of gimmicky shit.

The general format of SX is fine. Heats, LCQ and then the exciting gate drop for the main event. Just implement those two things I mentioned and the on track racing will be much improved. Seems like a win win for everyone.
Inverted gate picks are supposed to fix what exactly? You can put the best starters on any gate, they will still be top 10 when they go into first turn.

Starting on 2 rows like in arenacross, now that would fix first turn pile up, put much more focus on qualification times + heat race position.

There is 3 problems to be discussed separately:

1. First turn pile ups (takes away championship chances)
2. Less intensity in heat and mains
3. The overall 17 round excitement

For 1 i recommend 2 row starts, 11 in each. For 2, that would partly be fixed with 2 row starts since position in heat races will be critical. You could discuss giving out 5 point to first 5 in each heat or whatever.

If you also give away less points during first 7-10 rounds, say 50-70% you tighten up the pack. Someone like Hill that figures out the bike late would benefit from it and still be in the game. Same with Tomac last year, he would have been champ since it took him 3-4 rounds to figure out the bike.

You could also consider giving more points in the end of the season with same result.
Freddie
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2/13/2018 12:19pm
I'm for it if it is done in a format that works for our sport and our point system and takes into consideration the number of events our series races.

My primary reason is I believe that it does maintain interest in the whole series which translates to more viewers and story lines. The other main reason is that I am tired of riders taking off the rest of the season once they are out of the Championship. This would give the riders who have incidents throughout the season, or who might need to take a week off due to injury, still have a chance at the title. That is enough reason for me. I like to see as many guys who have a chance to win the race actually race all the races, especially the ones where the championship is on the line.
KennyT
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Fantasy
2/13/2018 1:36pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2018 1:38pm
KennyT wrote:
Yes to the last question. I have skipped many Vegas rounds when the title was locked up a few races beforehand. I’ll still watch it in...
Yes to the last question. I have skipped many Vegas rounds when the title was locked up a few races beforehand. I’ll still watch it in tv to see how my fantasy team does but there is a total lack of drama at the finale when there is not a title at stake
dkg wrote:
To each his own. I've been to Vegas many times. Both when there was a title in play and at times when it was not. I'll...
To each his own. I've been to Vegas many times. Both when there was a title in play and at times when it was not. I'll admit that when the title is in play, it is a little more exciting. I really go just for love of the sport, have fun in Vegas and to see the event. (Of course, I went to both of the recent Glen Helen poorly attended MXGPs too.) For me, I don't think a chase that artificially puts the title into play would have any affect on my decision to go or not go. Frankly, if there was a chase and someone other than the rider with the most points won the title, I'd feel a little cheated and like the integrity of the title had been devalued. I guess I am just not willing to exchange that core value for the artificially induced excitement of the chase.
The whole SX circus shitstorm is artificially induced excitement. I find no integrity of the sport involved in SX ...it’s a 2 wheel circus

Now outdoors is a different story. World and National titles - no chase
flyinb501
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2/13/2018 2:55pm
Daniel's points were hard to argue with in my opinion. I vote for the chase.
Asimo
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2/13/2018 3:00pm
Inverted starts has been done. It was a real circus.

Chase is stupid for a guy who stays out of trouble, finishes races, and stays off the ground. Why penalize that and reward attrition?


Asimo
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2/13/2018 3:07pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2018 3:14pm
flyinb501 wrote:
Daniel's points were hard to argue with in my opinion. I vote for the chase.
Comparing it to a book with a climax ending? Each race being a chapter?
If they want racers to race at the end, make a monetary reward.

Golf doesn't need a chase because they play just as focused for each round, 1st or last round. The money is worth it.

Currently there is minimal reason to race hard because McDonalds pays as much or more than most racers make except top 10. If they have already won the title, there is nothing to gain so they mail it in.

If there was serious ching to be made, maybe it would be different?
Phillip_Lamb
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2/13/2018 3:15pm
flyinb501 wrote:
Daniel's points were hard to argue with in my opinion. I vote for the chase.
most of daniels point revolved around simply saying "it will be better"

yes better, just like the "change" we got with obama


He even mentions at one point "yes the chase wont change the overall winner, the best guy will still win" this right here is proof that the chase is pointless. If you reset the points in one of RC's perfect seasons, is it still a boring season, even though the guys behind him get a 2nd chance? yes its still boring, cuz RC was still gonna win.

honestly the problem isnt a chase, its the length of the series and the fact that we had 4 riders in the last 20years figure out how to win regularly and not get hurt (MC, RC4, RV2, RD5)

Think about the length of the series, its 17 rounds. I start getting sick of the races around rd12 more because its a grind. also which series is usually the most exciting?? the 250sx has always been more exciting, yes 250s are slower and you have young kids that add to the mix, but the series isnt long enough to build a lead that can be managed like RC or dungey used to do.

Phillip_Lamb
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2/13/2018 3:17pm
hamncheeze wrote:
My biggest issue with Blair's argument is that he is looking at it from an "entertainment" angle. The riders and teams, they look at it from...
My biggest issue with Blair's argument is that he is looking at it from an "entertainment" angle. The riders and teams, they look at it from a "sporting" angle. There is a huge difference.

Problem for us real fans is Feld Entertainment is definitely not looking at it from a sporting perspective. That is obvious. And now they are going to use their minions like Daniel Blair and RC to push their agenda. Make no mistake, Feld wants to turn this into a chase. They can have Ralphie Boy doing promo ads spouting off cliches and nonsense to try to wind up the ticket sales. FS1 will run ads all week long about EPIC battles for the king of the chase. They don't care about the history of the sport, or the actual sporting component of Supercross. Obviously I'd still watch and attend SX races but if it went to a chase format I would never look at the champion with the same respect. He only had to be good over 5 races. Not 17.
YES..

this is a racing sport, not WWF or Monster Jam.

nothing wrong with keeping the same format.

NFL and Baseball seem to think their format still works after so many years.
SPYGUY
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2/13/2018 3:37pm
If you're automatically in the chase just by winning one race, what incentive would the winner of A1 have to compete in the rest of the regular season races until the chase starts?
Premixed112
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2/13/2018 3:42pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2018 3:43pm
SPYGUY wrote:
If you're automatically in the chase just by winning one race, what incentive would the winner of A1 have to compete in the rest of the...
If you're automatically in the chase just by winning one race, what incentive would the winner of A1 have to compete in the rest of the regular season races until the chase starts?
Do you know how much these guys get paid to finish well? I mean, if you hate money, I guess sit out the races. But most of these guys want to get paid, I would assume.
SPYGUY
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2/13/2018 3:51pm
Do you know how much these guys get paid to finish well? I mean, if you hate money, I guess sit out the races. But most...
Do you know how much these guys get paid to finish well? I mean, if you hate money, I guess sit out the races. But most of these guys want to get paid, I would assume.
With the risk of injury being as great as it is, you don't think a rider or team would even consider it?

Take this year, for instance, Musquin wins A1 and then hurts his shoulder. The way it is now, he is incentivized to keep racing if he wants to keep his title hopes alive. With the "Win and you're in" chase format, he could take many weeks off in an attempt to get back to 100%.

All I'm trying to get across is that there are many different angles to this big of a format change and not all of them would be positive.
MXMattii
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2/13/2018 4:47pm


Made a little sketch about a chase format formulae that could make everyone happy I think. Because lots of you are scared because of someone running away with the championship who doesn't deserve it. But if you give them podium credits at the normal season, count them at their chase points at the start of the chase and you will have still people who benefit of being fit and healthy a full season and being on the box a full season.
KennyT
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2/13/2018 4:54pm
SPYGUY wrote:
If you're automatically in the chase just by winning one race, what incentive would the winner of A1 have to compete in the rest of the...
If you're automatically in the chase just by winning one race, what incentive would the winner of A1 have to compete in the rest of the regular season races until the chase starts?
As stated elsewhere in this post. If it is like other Chase formats you get a bonus point to carry over into the Chase. Example....you win 4 earlier rounds and you begin the Chase up 4 points at the start. Can make the difference between being a champion or finishing 2nd so there is much incentive to race for wins. Not to mention the $100,000 win bonuses
rbabb524
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2/13/2018 5:11pm
I hate the idea of a chase but at the same time I would like to see something done to keep the points closer later in the season. I think the chase is too drastic.

My proposal is to drop the worst race or worst two races for each rider. This will help stop mechanical dnfs or first turn pile ups from ruining someone's season. I also think it would help with rider safety. For example a rider crashes during the week in practice and gets a small concusion. If he can drop a race he can make a decision to sit out and heal for an extra week instead of feeling pressured to go out and race when he shouldn't. Not saying racers will always make the smart decision and do this but at least it would be an option.

Finally I do not see how this could make weekly races or early season races boring because you can always improve on your worst finish
hamncheeze
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2/13/2018 6:46pm
The best point made in this discussion here is that we don't need a chase to make this sport better, we need good racing every weekend. A run-away title is not a big deal if the racing at the front is good every weekend. What makes for good racing? As discussed previously in here, making the tracks have separation and difficulty but keeping them slow enough. Like Oakland, or Glendale, or even Houston. Boring fast easy tracks like A1 and A2 lead to sucky racing. If Feld can deliver good hard racing at the front each weekend they won't have to gimmick up with a chase. New fans and grizzled veterans will be into it.

Post a reply to: Chase format discussion on Main Event Moto podcast

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