The 2018 450 Shootout is LIVE!

Katoomey
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Katoomey 9/15/2017 12:42pm
9/15/2017 12:42pm
Sixeightone wrote:
The only one worth reading is ML's write up. It is by far the most detailed explaining the most minute changes between the models. Brian Davis's...
The only one worth reading is ML's write up. It is by far the most detailed explaining the most minute changes between the models. Brian Davis's review putting husky 6th I had to laugh at, that guy can go pound sand. I hope vital doesn't use him next year, he is an absolute JACKASS. There is no way the Husky is the worst bike. Super pumped to see the Honda do well. But with out a doubt the Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawi all still feel like 2007 models to me... Nice work ML512!!!!
you're the jackass. what a tiny little dick you must have to feel so threatened by an opposing viewpoint. you're pathetic.
ML512
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ML512 9/15/2017 12:42pm
9/15/2017 12:42pm
Dirty Points wrote:
ML addressed that like 4 posts above. The results would have been the same with that methodology.
Mike_Frisk wrote:
Well I haven't read every post in the 3 page thread before posting. It's not a matter of it changing the result this time ) it...
Well I haven't read every post in the 3 page thread before posting.

It's not a matter of it changing the result this time ) it could in the future) but a matter of how to make the most accurate test. I don't even know this would be the best way to do it (therefore the question mark).
Dirty Points wrote:
It's a composite opinion of seven dudes. How "accurate" is it going to be under any method? Is there even a standard by which one can...
It's a composite opinion of seven dudes. How "accurate" is it going to be under any method? Is there even a standard by which one can even deem it inaccurate?

I think their "Lowest Score Wins" methodology is as probably as valid as anything they could throw together in that regard.

You can read each of their opinions in the article, and apply whatever methodology you want to weighing each's validity.
That's exactly what we go for. Lowest score is how me Label a winner but ultimately the Shootout is to inform everyone by giving all our rider's opinions. Then the reader can find a range of opinions on a bike to make a more informed decision, or just enjoy the read if they already have their mind set on a bike.
Flip109
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Flip109 9/15/2017 12:49pm
9/15/2017 12:49pm
Chris Hay's hair should win the shootout! Laughing jk

Great shootout and very informative. Although I won't be buying a new bike it was a great read. May even be able to use it in a future purchase. Really wish the zook was better Angry

fullysicmate
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fullysicmate 9/15/2017 12:52pm
9/15/2017 12:52pm
hellion wrote:
ML, great work on the shootout! Very comprehensive, detailed, and reader friendly. I liked what you did with the weight segment. Front/rear bias isn't something I'd...
ML, great work on the shootout! Very comprehensive, detailed, and reader friendly. I liked what you did with the weight segment. Front/rear bias isn't something I'd considered before. A small suggestion on that would be using percentage rather than actual pounds. As when some bikes are 15 pounds lighter than others it gets hard to compare.

Also, you might consider throwing out one high and one low score for each bike tested to eliminate outliers. As in the case of the Husqvarna, it got three first place votes, and generally good scores otherwise. Then Brian Davis gives it a 6th, which effectively knocked it out of contention. Honestly, how can that happen? And he didn't rank the KTM 5th ( I think he had it third! ) so something was either up with the bike at that point, or he has a bias.

All things considered though, very nice.
Jrewing wrote:
What I thought exactly
Brian Davis also currently owns a 2017 crf450 (so do 3 of the other test riders)

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Kenny Lingus
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Kenny Lingus 9/15/2017 12:58pm
9/15/2017 12:58pm
JWACK wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/14/214772/s1200_image.jpg[/img] I could have told you so.! I've got about 5 hours on mine and it's just getting better. Overall I'm very happy with it. It...


I could have told you so.! I've got about 5 hours on mine and it's just getting better. Overall I'm very happy with it. It has handling trates of a gen 3 cr 250 mixed with a 2008 Crf 450. The forks pretty much suck for my standards but the shock is decent. And the engine just flat out rips when your on the "pipe".
Pretty much my thoughts as well. Forks will go to FC after riding season is over. Going to get the Honda programing tool because it seems like a better way to go than just a re-map. More I ride it the more I like it. Going to Tomahawk MX the 23rd to let her stretch her legs a bit. Changing the oil is kind of a pain in the ass.
Sixeightone
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Sixeightone 9/15/2017 12:59pm
9/15/2017 12:59pm
Sixeightone wrote:
The only one worth reading is ML's write up. It is by far the most detailed explaining the most minute changes between the models. Brian Davis's...
The only one worth reading is ML's write up. It is by far the most detailed explaining the most minute changes between the models. Brian Davis's review putting husky 6th I had to laugh at, that guy can go pound sand. I hope vital doesn't use him next year, he is an absolute JACKASS. There is no way the Husky is the worst bike. Super pumped to see the Honda do well. But with out a doubt the Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawi all still feel like 2007 models to me... Nice work ML512!!!!
ML512 wrote:
Myself and Brian spoke about the husky decision at length. I understand why he chose it and we talked about the best case scenario, if the...
Myself and Brian spoke about the husky decision at length. I understand why he chose it and we talked about the best case scenario, if the problems he had were fixed, where would it have finished? He said no matter what he preferred the feel of the chassis and engine characteristics of the KTM. So the Husky under best circumstances would've got Fourth on his list as the KTm had third. That wouldn't have changed the final result, it still would finish third overall as two other riders placed in fourth.

While I thank you for your acknowledgment of my work, calling a friend of mine and absolute jackass based off a bike review is ridiculous.
- I don't think it's ridiculous at all. I work at a dealer and I see biased opinions effect the image of what motorcycle a customer will purchase all the time. And those are always whackers. He states that he hates "ANY" air fork, so right off the bat he is creating an opinion. His current bike is a 2016 CRF450, which might I add came with a lower pressure air fork? Is that the pot calling the kettle black?

- I did not read one word after I read his review of the husky. He writes many positive things that he likes about the bike, but places it in sixth place. To me, I see a biased opinion because he rides a Honda and doesn't like air forks. I think when you are writing a review for a motorcycle, on what most would consider the most viewed forum in the motocross industry you need to have a more open mind.

- I see that the husky scored the most first place awards also so for him to put it last.. Come on, it's clear as day he has something against the husky. He placed the KTM third, because it wasn't a Honda. I mean ML512 reviews are always the most unbiased best reviews I read. His information is always good you can almost count on it. For ML512 to even let that review be read on vital is heartbreaking. I hope he is never used on a vital review again.

- I'd also like to see how each of the bikes would fair on the east coast with some real dirt. I wonder what our guys would say with nice chocolate cake loam and deep ruts. It's kind of a bummer that all the test riding gets done on the West Coast.
fullysicmate
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fullysicmate 9/15/2017 1:01pm
9/15/2017 1:01pm
Despite this being the most thorough and informative test I have ever read. The more I review the results, the more I feel the results are floored due to test riders biases.
jtiger12
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jtiger12 9/15/2017 1:04pm
9/15/2017 1:04pm
JWACK wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/14/214772/s1200_image.jpg[/img] I could have told you so.! I've got about 5 hours on mine and it's just getting better. Overall I'm very happy with it. It...


I could have told you so.! I've got about 5 hours on mine and it's just getting better. Overall I'm very happy with it. It has handling trates of a gen 3 cr 250 mixed with a 2008 Crf 450. The forks pretty much suck for my standards but the shock is decent. And the engine just flat out rips when your on the "pipe".
That's exactly what I said to my friends after riding an 18.
ML512
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ML512 9/15/2017 1:05pm
9/15/2017 1:05pm
hellion wrote:
ML, great work on the shootout! Very comprehensive, detailed, and reader friendly. I liked what you did with the weight segment. Front/rear bias isn't something I'd...
ML, great work on the shootout! Very comprehensive, detailed, and reader friendly. I liked what you did with the weight segment. Front/rear bias isn't something I'd considered before. A small suggestion on that would be using percentage rather than actual pounds. As when some bikes are 15 pounds lighter than others it gets hard to compare.

Also, you might consider throwing out one high and one low score for each bike tested to eliminate outliers. As in the case of the Husqvarna, it got three first place votes, and generally good scores otherwise. Then Brian Davis gives it a 6th, which effectively knocked it out of contention. Honestly, how can that happen? And he didn't rank the KTM 5th ( I think he had it third! ) so something was either up with the bike at that point, or he has a bias.

All things considered though, very nice.
Jrewing wrote:
What I thought exactly
fullysicmate wrote:
Brian Davis also currently owns a 2017 crf450 (so do 3 of the other test riders)
Three test riders own 17 CRF450Rs, two of which purchased them after doing our '17 Shootout...but one of them picked the Husky as the winner this year.

In Brian's case, he's owned a Honda, Kawi and KTM in the past two and a half years. Has had kit suspension on them all and a lot of goodies. Dude spends a lot of money on his bikes, good consumer.
hititpind
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hititpind 9/15/2017 1:06pm
9/15/2017 1:06pm
Nice Job guys!

As a photographer, this shot is RIDICULOUS! Major props!

ML512
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ML512 9/15/2017 1:08pm
9/15/2017 1:08pm
fullysicmate wrote:
Despite this being the most thorough and informative test I have ever read. The more I review the results, the more I feel the results are...
Despite this being the most thorough and informative test I have ever read. The more I review the results, the more I feel the results are floored due to test riders biases.
I'm curious why you say that?
MelonFan123
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MelonFan123 9/15/2017 1:31pm
9/15/2017 1:31pm
we need to get Se7en34 in here asap!!! Laughing
JWACK
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JWACK 9/15/2017 2:08pm
9/15/2017 2:08pm Edited Date/Time 9/15/2017 2:09pm
JWACK wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/14/214772/s1200_image.jpg[/img] I could have told you so.! I've got about 5 hours on mine and it's just getting better. Overall I'm very happy with it. It...


I could have told you so.! I've got about 5 hours on mine and it's just getting better. Overall I'm very happy with it. It has handling trates of a gen 3 cr 250 mixed with a 2008 Crf 450. The forks pretty much suck for my standards but the shock is decent. And the engine just flat out rips when your on the "pipe".
Kenny Lingus wrote:
Pretty much my thoughts as well. Forks will go to FC after riding season is over. Going to get the Honda programing tool because it seems...
Pretty much my thoughts as well. Forks will go to FC after riding season is over. Going to get the Honda programing tool because it seems like a better way to go than just a re-map. More I ride it the more I like it. Going to Tomahawk MX the 23rd to let her stretch her legs a bit. Changing the oil is kind of a pain in the ass.
Are you going with the actual Honda programmer? or are you going to get the "get" wifi com programmer that lets you do it with your phone?
kiwifan
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kiwifan 9/15/2017 2:34pm
9/15/2017 2:34pm
My god the sky has fallen in, a lot dont clearly want the Honda to win the overall....jesus guys, when Husky won last year you were all saying how fair Vital do their shootouts, but not this yeah eh? ...unbelievable.

To question guys who put in their own time to give their own honest opinion is absolutely crap, if you dont like it go read another shootout that I am sure will cater to your own brand fetish....although whether it is as honest as this one is highly debateable.
Kenny Lingus
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Kenny Lingus 9/15/2017 3:13pm
9/15/2017 3:13pm
JWACK wrote:
Are you going with the actual Honda programmer? or are you going to get the "get" wifi com programmer that lets you do it with your...
Are you going with the actual Honda programmer? or are you going to get the "get" wifi com programmer that lets you do it with your phone?
Going with the actual Honda one. All you need is different software for other year FI Hondas. Can't remember if it will work on 250's. Seems a bit rich for my elevation. Usually ride in the 1500-2000 ft above sea level range and have always had to lean my bikes out.
Gixxxerboy
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Gixxxerboy 9/15/2017 3:55pm
9/15/2017 3:55pm
I can't get over guys getting so butt hurt over where these bikes rank in the shootout !!!! There are pro's and con's to each model. They are all amazing machines with a ton of R&D. There is only a select group of people who could even push these bikes to their limits. Personally, I like the Yamaha and am waiting for it to come in. I think the KTM and Husky look ridiculous in the style department. Those big nasty side number plates are hideous. I think the Yamaha is the best looking bike made and the most bullet proof. Regardless of where it placed, If I am gunna drop that kinda cheeze on a bike, I want the most for my money.
Rotaholic
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Rotaholic 9/15/2017 4:29pm
9/15/2017 4:29pm
After careful consideration and reading the entire article (great read by the way ML512) im still going to buy the RMZ450, most of the stuff I can fix pretty easily and make it one hell of a weapon. I would like to demo the honda but the suzuki just works for me.
MX690
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MX690 9/15/2017 4:53pm
9/15/2017 4:53pm
Waiting to see Keefer's shootout, then I'll compare the two shootouts, hopefully there is some consistency.

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PRM31
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PRM31 9/15/2017 8:12pm
9/15/2017 8:12pm
The great thing about this shootout is you can choose what information is relevant and come to your own conclusion. Reading it I was struck by the last place vote for the Husky. Even the write up didn't seem real. Just odd. It really stood out to me. One of these is not like the others moment. So I ignore it. I could care less who wins, but I enjoy reading the shootouts and this is a good one.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 9/15/2017 8:18pm
9/15/2017 8:18pm
Sixeightone wrote:
The only one worth reading is ML's write up. It is by far the most detailed explaining the most minute changes between the models. Brian Davis's...
The only one worth reading is ML's write up. It is by far the most detailed explaining the most minute changes between the models. Brian Davis's review putting husky 6th I had to laugh at, that guy can go pound sand. I hope vital doesn't use him next year, he is an absolute JACKASS. There is no way the Husky is the worst bike. Super pumped to see the Honda do well. But with out a doubt the Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawi all still feel like 2007 models to me... Nice work ML512!!!!
Katoomey wrote:
you're the jackass. what a tiny little dick you must have to feel so threatened by an opposing viewpoint. you're pathetic.
This Katoomey guy is always throwing me off. Damn. 1st he chaps my ass w/ his "anti-ML" post over in the "let's do an old bike shoot-out"...then he posts this "Peelout quality" GOLD.

I'm gonna have to keep an eye on this guy.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 9/15/2017 8:19pm
9/15/2017 8:19pm
Rotaholic wrote:
After careful consideration and reading the entire article (great read by the way ML512) im still going to buy the RMZ450, most of the stuff I...
After careful consideration and reading the entire article (great read by the way ML512) im still going to buy the RMZ450, most of the stuff I can fix pretty easily and make it one hell of a weapon. I would like to demo the honda but the suzuki just works for me.
And...it still turns like a Zook!
PRM31
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PRM31 9/15/2017 8:45pm
9/15/2017 8:45pm
MX690 wrote:
Waiting to see Keefer's shootout, then I'll compare the two shootouts, hopefully there is some consistency.
This one has a clear top 3 with the FC, SXF and CRF, followed by the YZF, and the KX and RM bringing up the rear. You can shift any votes and it's basically the same groupings. I too am interested to see if that's how it pans out.
nascarnate326
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nascarnate326 9/16/2017 3:54am
9/16/2017 3:54am
ML512, do the ktm and husky feel lighter when pushing the bike on to a trailer, lifting on a stand etc? Can you really tell the difference.

Do you know how they achieved such lower Weight? A few lbs is nothing but it seems that with the new CRF, YZF, and RMZ either they can't get the weight down or they just don't care.

It appears all the consumer wants is less weight and push button start yet Suzuki gave us neither(but did go spring fork).
hellion
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hellion 9/16/2017 4:24am
9/16/2017 4:24am
ML, I keep getting quoted on a previous post and I think the gist of what I was saying was lost. I don't care who wins, though I find the information very interesting. My reason for posting was to give you some input that might be considered for future shootouts.

I was one of the guys asking for dry weights last year, and you went above and beyond in that regard this time. Kudos.
bvm111
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bvm111 9/16/2017 6:29am
9/16/2017 6:29am


Im just going to leave this here

This isn't a swipe at ML or the shootout because I thought it was very well done, this is a swipe at alll you guys whining about it!
mxb2
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mxb2 9/16/2017 6:39am
9/16/2017 6:39am
Shootouts and reviews are great for info,specs, opinions. But if you spend 9k on someone else's opinion, you are a fool. Buy the bike you want, set it up and ride it.
NeedMoto
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NeedMoto 9/16/2017 7:34am
9/16/2017 7:34am
mxb2 wrote:
Shootouts and reviews are great for info,specs, opinions. But if you spend 9k on someone else's opinion, you are a fool. Buy the bike you want...
Shootouts and reviews are great for info,specs, opinions. But if you spend 9k on someone else's opinion, you are a fool. Buy the bike you want, set it up and ride it.
Simple and accurate!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ML512
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ML512 9/16/2017 7:44am
9/16/2017 7:44am Edited Date/Time 9/16/2017 9:46am
bvm111 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/16/214982/s1200_IMG_2399.jpg[/img] Im just going to leave this here This isn't a swipe at ML or the shootout because I thought it was very well done, this...


Im just going to leave this here

This isn't a swipe at ML or the shootout because I thought it was very well done, this is a swipe at alll you guys whining about it!
I was chatting with Keefer yesterday, I think we're going to do the following week's Pulp show together and discuss Shootouts, as his will be done by then
Dinosaur Media 9/16/2017 9:42am
9/16/2017 9:42am
Rotaholic wrote:
After careful consideration and reading the entire article (great read by the way ML512) im still going to buy the RMZ450, most of the stuff I...
After careful consideration and reading the entire article (great read by the way ML512) im still going to buy the RMZ450, most of the stuff I can fix pretty easily and make it one hell of a weapon. I would like to demo the honda but the suzuki just works for me.
Can the 17 shock simply bolt up?
ML512
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ML512 9/16/2017 9:47am
9/16/2017 9:47am
Rotaholic wrote:
After careful consideration and reading the entire article (great read by the way ML512) im still going to buy the RMZ450, most of the stuff I...
After careful consideration and reading the entire article (great read by the way ML512) im still going to buy the RMZ450, most of the stuff I can fix pretty easily and make it one hell of a weapon. I would like to demo the honda but the suzuki just works for me.
Dinosaur Media wrote:
Can the 17 shock simply bolt up?
I need to measure but I don't think the piggyback reservoir will clear the frame that's on the 17 shock.
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