Make Motocross Great Again! Is it time to fire the AMA?

Micahdogg
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5/31/2017 7:13am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Nope your wrong! The manufacturers sold out to 4 strokes because they believed it was the only way to stay in business for the future. The...
Nope your wrong! The manufacturers sold out to 4 strokes because they believed it was the only way to stay in business for the future. The EPA continues to lay down threats of more restrictions.

If it wasn't for the belief that it would cost them their whole motorcycle presence, they woulda just stayed cranking out cheap 2 strokes that they had already developed. Shifting to 4 strokes costs them a mini fortune.
Can you elaborate? Again, emission standards don't affect racing. They do affect recreational riding, but every manufacture had four stoke options - popular options like the Honda XR line.

I think you have to segregate Yamaha from the rest. Clearly, everyone not named Yamaha scrambled to stay in business for the future as you put it......because the rules changed and nobody else had bikes that could compete with Yamaha. If you are suggesting Yamaha thought everyone was doomed if they kept peddling 2-strokes...well, I had never considered that. I figured their motivation was simply to see if anyone could build a fire-breathing thumper that was light enough to win. And when they achieved it, they sure seemed to have the industry blindsided because the AMA scrambled to pull the cc limit down, Honda didn't respond for 4 years.....and even as late as 6 year after the YZ400F, Suzuki and Kawi were pooling resources to come up with SOMETHING to race.

kkawboy14
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5/31/2017 7:24am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet? Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more...
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet?

Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more Mx bikes than the rest of the whole wide world....
Micahdogg wrote:
You said the "American Govt," which is the Federal level. You also noted Federal EPA standards from 15 years ago, so you were clearly talking about...
You said the "American Govt," which is the Federal level. You also noted Federal EPA standards from 15 years ago, so you were clearly talking about the Federal Govt. California is a state. Nobody calls California the American Govt.

The EPA is the American government! 15 years ago was the beginning of the end!
kkawboy14
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5/31/2017 7:29am Edited Date/Time 5/31/2017 7:42am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Nope your wrong! The manufacturers sold out to 4 strokes because they believed it was the only way to stay in business for the future. The...
Nope your wrong! The manufacturers sold out to 4 strokes because they believed it was the only way to stay in business for the future. The EPA continues to lay down threats of more restrictions.

If it wasn't for the belief that it would cost them their whole motorcycle presence, they woulda just stayed cranking out cheap 2 strokes that they had already developed. Shifting to 4 strokes costs them a mini fortune.
Micahdogg wrote:
Can you elaborate? Again, emission standards don't affect racing. They do affect recreational riding, but every manufacture had four stoke options - popular options like the...
Can you elaborate? Again, emission standards don't affect racing. They do affect recreational riding, but every manufacture had four stoke options - popular options like the Honda XR line.

I think you have to segregate Yamaha from the rest. Clearly, everyone not named Yamaha scrambled to stay in business for the future as you put it......because the rules changed and nobody else had bikes that could compete with Yamaha. If you are suggesting Yamaha thought everyone was doomed if they kept peddling 2-strokes...well, I had never considered that. I figured their motivation was simply to see if anyone could build a fire-breathing thumper that was light enough to win. And when they achieved it, they sure seemed to have the industry blindsided because the AMA scrambled to pull the cc limit down, Honda didn't respond for 4 years.....and even as late as 6 year after the YZ400F, Suzuki and Kawi were pooling resources to come up with SOMETHING to race.

All businesses resist changing and spending dollars they don't have to. Yamaha had seen the writing on the wall first and others resisted as long as they could.

The only reason GM loses $240,000 on every Chevy Volt that they manufacture is because they feel they have to. Dodge resisted the coming fuel changes and went out of business. d. (I better add this before some tard comes in and says Dodge is still in business: Obama gave Dodge, Chrysler Jeep to Fiat along with a $50 billion dollar free check and easy access to the American market, so yeah, they went out of business. Also I'm just using them to demonstrate that in business, if you snooze you lose)

The AMA, Pro Racing and the Manufacturers have nothing to do with 4 strokes killing 2 strokes. The 2 strokes were killed on the street years ago. The dirt is getting killed as we speak and the Lawn and Garden business is fast losing 2 strokes for 4 strokes and Propane.

seth505
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5/31/2017 7:40am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet? Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more...
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet?

Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more Mx bikes than the rest of the whole wide world....
So is it California or "the american government" that is killing the 2-stroke? Tell us more about how each Volt sold costs GM a quarter million and how Dodge is out of business Grinning
https://www.dodge.com/

The Shop

5/31/2017 7:53am
Micahdogg wrote:
You said the "American Govt," which is the Federal level. You also noted Federal EPA standards from 15 years ago, so you were clearly talking about...
You said the "American Govt," which is the Federal level. You also noted Federal EPA standards from 15 years ago, so you were clearly talking about the Federal Govt. California is a state. Nobody calls California the American Govt.

Except for maybe Maxine Waters or Sheila Jackson Lee. Their ignorance has no boundaries.Laughing Laughing Laughing

Let's blame them for the rule that allows double displacement for 4 strokes. Sounds like some shit they'd come up with.
5/31/2017 7:57am
kkawboy14 wrote:
The EPA is the American government! 15 years ago was the beginning of the end!
Trump is wanting to abolish the EPA , he may not be able to do it but he will limit their power and cut their funding .
Johnny Depp
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5/31/2017 8:06am
The premise of this thread seems to be that the rules and technology and associated costs squeeze out the local little guy -- basically amateurs --...
The premise of this thread seems to be that the rules and technology and associated costs squeeze out the local little guy -- basically amateurs -- and most of the rest is group think. Name another professional sport that works this way?
early wrote:
I fear your post will be lost in the crowd.
No doubt there is a disconnect between Pro and Amateur and whether one is pulling the rope or the other is pushing it. When it comes...
No doubt there is a disconnect between Pro and Amateur and whether one is pulling the rope or the other is pushing it.

When it comes down to it the rider is 95% of the equation for success. This is well established over decades of results and lap times. We just had the 30th anniversary of Johnny O'mara beating the World's best on a 125cc at the Motocross Des Nations.

http://www.mxgp.com/news/maggiora-welcomes-johnny-omara


When we all go to our local tracks, we race against all types and sizes and ages of bikes and riders and it doesn't make one damn difference.

Lost in the crowd of 2t/4t again.

Every one of us knows several people who have chosen to take a 10-15 year old used bike and restore and pimp it out to race with for under $5k, usually under $3k. The priced out of the sport thing doesn't hold water for locals.

Given their choice, I'm sure many Pro's would opt for an older steel frame too.
kkawboy14
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5/31/2017 8:08am
kkawboy14 wrote:
The EPA is the American government! 15 years ago was the beginning of the end!
lostboy819 wrote:
Trump is wanting to abolish the EPA , he may not be able to do it but he will limit their power and cut their funding...
Trump is wanting to abolish the EPA , he may not be able to do it but he will limit their power and cut their funding .
Trump is the best thing that ever happened to business and the MX industry!
kkawboy14
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5/31/2017 8:09am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet? Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more...
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet?

Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more Mx bikes than the rest of the whole wide world....
seth505 wrote:
So is it California or "the american government" that is killing the 2-stroke? Tell us more about how each Volt sold costs GM a quarter million...
So is it California or "the american government" that is killing the 2-stroke? Tell us more about how each Volt sold costs GM a quarter million and how Dodge is out of business Grinning
https://www.dodge.com/
Ok you proved me wrong Smile
kkawboy14
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5/31/2017 8:13am Edited Date/Time 5/31/2017 8:14am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet? Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more...
Did anyone figure out who is really killing 2 strokes yet?

Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more Mx bikes than the rest of the whole wide world....
seth505 wrote:
So is it California or "the american government" that is killing the 2-stroke? Tell us more about how each Volt sold costs GM a quarter million...
So is it California or "the american government" that is killing the 2-stroke? Tell us more about how each Volt sold costs GM a quarter million and how Dodge is out of business Grinning
https://www.dodge.com/
They are doing better now but the first 2 years they were losing $250k per car, now it's down but they aren't selling a lot of them



doghouse
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5/31/2017 9:25am
10000hrs wrote:
It seems as though there is a [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve]Laffer Curve[/url] for mx bike cost and participation rates. If you make a mx bike that costs say $1000...
It seems as though there is a Laffer Curve for mx bike cost and participation rates. If you make a mx bike that costs say $1000, it will be so cheap, unreliable and underpowered, nobody would race cuz it would be a horrible experience. If you make an mx bike with A kit suspension, full on motor, titanium and carbon everything, it would cost $30,000, very few would buy it and starting lines would be a ghost town. There must be an optimum price that gets the most participants. My opinion is that the current price of four strokes and associated upkeep costs is way higher than optimum. for participation.

In the good old days, Southwick used to have 8 heats of 32 in the 125 novice class. My 73 Honda cr125 listed for $699 which is equal to $3860 today ... way less than todays price of a 250f. But we would have to get rid of fuel injection, power valves and water cooling and ... and ... and to get down to that price. And then the " I want to see the best riders on the trickest unobtanium bikes " wing of the sport would erupt.

I have been invloved in three sports where the performance wing dictated direction and therefore price, and all three sports have suffered in participation because of it.
It's difficult to point to one thing, there are myriad factors at play, the key is to distill which ones are critical.

I think your point on the affordability target is well taken, but not the entirety of the issue. I have raced saiboats as longer than dirt bikes, and at a professional level, and cost control at best has been able to reduce the bleeding, but not necessarily grow the sport. It is shrinking just like most outdoor sports due to all sorts of cultural factors. The cost control is key, because what you see in open rules is an explosion of cost, and a rapid death as people get tired of spending so much, so out of control costs are one issue that must be harnessed, but only a piece of the puzzle.
bdub
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5/31/2017 9:50am
I remember when the road bike series decided to "fire the AMA". We have what many consider the premier outdoor series in the world, where the oem's spend huge amounts of cash. Why try to fix something that isn't broken???
deluxeman
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5/31/2017 10:40am
Why don't they do what MotoGP and F1 does and limit the number of engines a team can use throughout the entire racing season. They are inspected and sealed, they have to use them for practice, qualification and the races. Makes them build them to live not just a time bomb that they change out every race.
PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 10:46am Edited Date/Time 5/31/2017 10:59am
I keep reading a lot of comments here from people who believe that two strokes are irrelevant, that four strokes make more power (
blackdiamond
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5/31/2017 10:56am
bdub wrote:
I remember when the road bike series decided to "fire the AMA". We have what many consider the premier outdoor series in the world, where the...
I remember when the road bike series decided to "fire the AMA". We have what many consider the premier outdoor series in the world, where the oem's spend huge amounts of cash. Why try to fix something that isn't broken???
Because even Ray Charles could see that it's broken?

PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 11:03am
I keep reading a lot of comments here from people who believe that two strokes are irrelevant, that four strokes make more power (
PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 11:06am
Sorry , my iPad is playing up disregard my previous two posts, they are incomplete, text was lost somehow
bdub
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5/31/2017 11:48am
Because even Ray Charles could see that it's broken?

Well Ray Charles and two strokes have something in common, they are both dead.
blackdiamond
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5/31/2017 12:07pm
bdub wrote:
Well Ray Charles and two strokes have something in common, they are both dead.
I would argue that the only thing dead in this thread are your brain cells.

Unless you live under a rock you can clearly see the development of new two strokes is growing. Pour yourself a nice tall glass of Fooper-Aide and enjoy.
Mit12
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5/31/2017 2:18pm
As my dad always said, be careful what you wish for as you might just get it. Back when Henry was on the 400F i wrote into to MXA and said that the four strokes would drive the cost of bikes and maintenance way up. MXA laughed at me and said I was crazy and that four strokes were what the people want. It does not take a rocket scientist to know that producing a four stroke cost more than a two stroke the same applies to maintenance. The problem is now that bikes are approaching $10,000 if the manufactures do start building two strokes the cost will not reflect the lower manufacturing cost.
Plugga
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5/31/2017 2:24pm
Because even Ray Charles could see that it's broken?

bdub wrote:
Well Ray Charles and two strokes have something in common, they are both dead.
Shirley you can't be serious?
5/31/2017 3:04pm
It has nothing to do with price, 2 stroke or 4 stroke. It has to do with the fact that the youth in this nation just isn't into racing or dirt bikes. Its takes a family commitment to get the youth involved in this sport and lets face it; other then the guys and gals (or whatever your consider yourself) on this form most of society would rather tweet or snap chat or do some other trivial electrical thing about some stupid fad or spinner or app. then spend time wrenching or riding..... I bought a new 50sx mini 2 years back to try and get my nephews into riding with me and all 4 of them just had zero interest. They would rather play black ops or just race mx vs atv..... I didn't ask them to do chores or help with anything; threw a brand new orange bike I would have fainted over at there age in front of them and said lets go ride it around and got a flat out "no, I'm good".

Motocross is cheap, it is likely one of the cheapest forms of motorized racing around. Even pro bikes are "cheap" in comparison to other forms of motorsports. Its racing..... It requires a job or financial backer. McDonalds pays enough to be able to afford even a brand new 450 and weekend entry, I just think families are into it anymore and society is raising a bunch of p*ssy little tw*ts that need dogs to help them get over there hurt feelings.
MotoX85
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5/31/2017 7:23pm
This is the main reason this sport is dying. This is my vet ridden, 2014YZ450F. This bike has, at the most, 35 hours on it. Impeccable service on it as I am a mechanic. Let my 16 yr old B class son ride it and this happened.



PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 7:28pm
Holy Faaaaaarrrrrrkkkkk!! Damn that looks expensive! So sorry for you mate... Really!
PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 7:30pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2017 7:32pm
Lucky the kid wasn't hurt in the lockup!
MotoX85
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5/31/2017 7:38pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2017 7:50pm
PJRAUS wrote:
Lucky the kid wasn't hurt in the lockup!
Number 1 question I asked. He was all worried about breaking my bike, told him didn't give a shit bout the bike. Now that I know he's safe, this is complete bullshit, I cannot tell you how much this bike has been babied. Air filter every ride, oli filter every 3 hours. I bleed blue and I'm pissed.

I can do all my own work and I have shops that help my son and it will still cost me 2k to fix this.

The good news, this will be my son's first 4 stroke rebuild learning experience.
PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 7:39pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2017 7:41pm


Makes me a little nervous...I just bought a brand new 17 yz 450 f
PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 7:43pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2017 7:45pm

I keep reading a lot of comments here from people who believe that two strokes are irrelevant, that four strokes make more power, that people prefer four strokes cause you don't have to put as many parts in them, just change the oil. That pros could race two strokes if they wanted to, but don't because they are uncompetitive . That manufacturers don't make two strokes anymore because they don't sell...
Assuming all this is true.... then why doesn't mx sports and Feld drop the discrimination against two strokes?
Surely it wouldn't matter at all if they were allowed to compete on an equal displacement basis?
Surely the AMA should have the right to grant a promoters group the right to conduct an " AMA 125 national motocross championship " without fear of hiderence or interference from mx sports or Honda or anyone else?
If two strokes are so insignificant, if nobody gives a shit about small bore two strokes , then where's the harm?

Fact is , and someone else already said it..... Four strokes were new, and new sells , combine that with some idiotic rule changes that allowed bikes with 250 cc engines to run in the 125 class, the beginner class for young adults...we saw the end of the 125 and grass roots level racing has diminished massively ,....everywhere.

For those of you who wish to continue arguing that nobody wants two strokes, that technology has moved on , that we are all better off on four strokes...
Go to your favourite place for looking at second hand mx bikes for sale....have a look at asking prices for 2006 or newer yz 250 two strokes, then compare the prices to the same year model yz250 f's.
Should be pretty apparent to you that people aren't that keen on buying a used 250 f , but will pay big bucks for an extremely old two stroke.

Motocross action wrote something along the lines of ( Hey ! Do you want a bike that makes up to 30% more power for the same size motor? Weighs considerably less ? That you can rebuild yourself at home for a couple hundred bucks? "
Do you know what bike they are talking about?
I don't hate four strokes, I just bought a brand new yz 450, but the loss of the 125 class and the abandonment of two strokes by Kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda , came as a result of a few circumstances combined, not the least of which was the AMA standing by and allowing 250cc bikes to run in the 125 class.

In keeping with the original poster's intent with this thread " should we fire the AMA ? "
Then really we should!
They can point the finger of blame at whoever they like, but ultimately it still says "AMA championship "
They literally sanction the use of cheater bikes!
Not only that, other sanctioning bodies globally followed their lead.
Everyone realised that they could be more competitive in the 125 class on a 250 four stroke....that was that...the 125 gets dropped.

The novelty has worn off and the stark reality has shown itself ,that if you blow a four stroke, five valve , titanium valves cylinder head..
You may as well just scrap the bike! The photo above is a good example, even though it's not the cylinder head, this poor guy is up for big $$$$ in parts alone


Thanks AMA....brilliant foresight there and congratulations on shepherding our sport into the dumpster!

The AMA has the power and the responsibility to turn this around, it's simple. Reinstate the 125 national championship and put an end to cheater bikes by insisting displacement parity for any AMA sanctioned championship,it's only the money grabbers that are going to complain.
There's enough manufacturers still making 125's so that's no issue. Who doubts that KTM, Husquvarna, Yamaha and TM , wouldn't support some riders in an attempt to win an AMA national championship?
Who's to say that wouldn't spark a revival of interest in grass roots level racing on affordable to race bikes? Even if it didn't, where's the harm to the sport or the riders?

It's the money grabbers preventing it and the AMA bows to their will and in doing so reneges on its responsibility to protect and encouraging motorcycle sport in America and by proxy...globally
MotoX85
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5/31/2017 7:49pm
PJRAUS wrote:


Makes me a little nervous...I just bought a brand new 17 yz 450 f
To calm your nerves, I have never seen this on a YZ450. I also know a local pro that is a known brute for destroying bikes and he has a 14 YZ450 and has had no issues eother. I'm definately going to be looking for a culprit when I take it apart.
PJRAUS
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5/31/2017 7:53pm
Yes, I'm sure it was a freak thing. I'm a blue bleeder too, but I've been tempted towards the KTM.
I bought th yz primarily based on the great deal I got and just as important, its reputation for reliability.
I haven't had a chance to pick it up yet... Another couple of weeks before I can..

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