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it isn't a conspiracy. its called supply and demand, the basics of any trade system."
You are right, but you are glossing over several painful points in the transition...and that is the AMA allowing ample room to breed this situation, yet comparatively being nitpicking when giving the same room for 2 strokes to make a comeback. Also, the success in competition wasn't that clear. For the 125's it was clear immediately, but indoors as late as 2005 the top 3 guys were on 2 strokes. And I'm sure it wasn't their idea to jump from a solid platform to the "still not quite sure about this thumper stuff" wiz bang new technology.
Also, it sure didn't help a rider make their decision on what to buy at the dealership when Kawasaki was announcing no KX125's for 2006. And when Honda said no new nothing after 2007. Nevermind those two, along with Suzuki were barely making any changes to their 2 strokes. Engine design aside, people generally don't pay a premium for a bike that is long in the tooth.
Someone once said that if a two stroke were designed right now, and allowed to compete cc-per-cc, the entire field would switch overnight. That kinda says it all.
Do you also believe that the Russians hacked the AMA to try to influence the race results from Glen Helen last weekend?
If it wasn't for the belief that it would cost them their whole motorcycle presence, they woulda just stayed cranking out cheap 2 strokes that they had already developed. Shifting to 4 strokes costs them a mini fortune.
Has been brought up before, but holy $hit pay the guys more?!? It would literally save everything and make all the other concerns non-existent or minuscule. Like what f*****g professional sport at the highest level pays $200-300 to any of the competitors? Zero. I mean for gosh sakes you can go to any redneck, piece of shit, dirt track and watch guys duke it out for $10,000 in their junk dirt track cars.
My buddy plays on the golf tour BELOW the PGA tour and he's made $147K already since Jan 1 yet someone getting 15-20th week in and week out in the outdoor series pays $2-3k a weekend after all is considered to race. Whether that money is from their own wallet or sponsors is beside the point. Someone is footing that bill. If guys knew they were racing for 2-3K to get 20th or finish outside the factory riders the privateer entries would triple after the factory riders. You'd have 70-80 EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND. Its an absolute joke. It's a sport where if you're not winning or getting top 10 you basically break even or make as much as you would at MCDs 40 hrs a week. How many other sports do only the top guys make 98% of the money? Zero. Yes mx doesn't have near the following as "stick and ball" sports but Jesus if I can go play a LOCAL golf scramble that has $4K to the winning team, then whoever is running or in charge of the marketing/business side of the AMA needs to get fired. Only being able to gather up $70K a weekend for a purse is just pathetic. Second tier golf tour weekly purses are $650-$750K a weekend and their crowds are a tenth of the amount of people that are at an Outdoor yet have 10 times the payout.
If that problem got solved, $1000 top ends and $400 clutch baskets wouldn't be near as big of an issue. Rant over. Just pay the guys, or have MXSports take a smaller cut. Would you rather have 40% of 20,000 or 10% of $80k. Oh wait the math is the same. Get someone in who knows how to run the business that is Professional motocross instead of running a hobby on steroids.
This year we have reduced entries in the 250 class. Let's say that we lose 10% of those entries next year and it continues for 3 years. Now we are looking at 25-30 rider gates in the "feeder class" . Who is going to fill the 450 seats in 5 years????
The problem is not at the pro level. It is at the grass roots level. There simply are not enough talented riders moving into the pro ranks. This has always been a sport that depended on the middle class for competitors. Guess what is shrinking?? The economic sector that has always been the lifeblood of the sport is shrinking. Add to that too many restrictions on land use that have eliminated the ease of entry into this sport. When the sport was growing, most riders had multiple tracks within an hour of their home and could AND would race weekly with relatively large classes. Now we have a few large amateur races and not nearly the level of weekly competition. Most local races have 35+ classes with maybe 10 riders on the gate. So the race day starts at 7 AM and ends with a series of 3 lap motos near dark. No one has time for that these days. So more folks try other things and the sport gets smaller. It's a death spiral.
In the good old days, Southwick used to have 8 heats of 32 in the 125 novice class. My 73 Honda cr125 listed for $699 which is equal to $3860 today ... way less than todays price of a 250f. But we would have to get rid of fuel injection, power valves and water cooling and ... and ... and to get down to that price. And then the " I want to see the best riders on the trickest unobtanium bikes " wing of the sport would erupt.
I have been invloved in three sports where the performance wing dictated direction and therefore price, and all three sports have suffered in participation because of it.
Start a go fund me page now for you funeral.
Pit Row
Everything....you said four strokes are more powerful WRONG.. They make much less power per cc of displacement than a comparative two stroke of the same size , which is precisely the reason why the manufactures ( Honda mainly ) had the AMA and of MX Sports ban 250 two strokes from the 250 class.
A privateer rider could put a pipe, silencer, reed block and maybe some porting on a 250 two stroke and make quite a bit more power than the best of the factory four strokes....especially if they were allowed to run leaded fuel which would allow for a much higher compression ratio to be run.
Privateers would be able to get up front at the start of a moto and potentially stay in the top ten to fifteen...in the points and in the money
Honda and others fear that and have moved to prevent it from happening.
You say you rebuilt your 450 for around $200????
I'm figuring you only put a piston in it and maybe a cam chain?
I've been trying to find a value for money used yz250 for ages...no luck they all ask ridiculous money
$5 to $7 k for an 06 to 09 yz 250 is not unusual but shit loads of 10 to 13 ( pre fuel injection ) yz 250f's can be found in the $3 to $4.5 k range....that should tell you something very important!
I've been considering buying a tidy yz250 f 2013 model for about $4 k
But seeing as it has in excess of 40 hours on it and I intend to race it and race it hard...it's only going to be a matter of time before I have to rebuild the head.
Also how do I know if the previous owner has been on top of his valve clearance adjustment schedule?
You let those clearances get a bit tight and those valves and seats start to burn...put a hard rider on that bike and it will lunch itself in very short order.
So I started looking at options to rebuild the head on any bike that I buy...genuine Yamaha parts?
Cost for 5 new titanium valves, valve seats, guides, springs and collars....umm pushing $2 k just for the parts.
Can I do that work myself? No I don't have the tools, so add on the labour cost for a reputable cylinder head specialist, easily another $300. Then you will need a new top end kit...possibly even a cylinder, a cam chain, cam chain guide and tensioner.
Then you might have issues also with the clutch and gearbox..
In any case...I won't be buying a second hand 250 f unless I find a 2013 or newer for around $1500 to $2 k
Now spare a though for the privateer trying to make a name for himself in the 250 class at the nationals.
He could quite literally buy an extra 250 two stroke, put a pipe and silencer on, feed block, vortex ignition and get his suspension re valves for hat it cost just to build his 250 f motor to a competitive state.
Then after about 10 hours he has to drop probably $5 k or more on parts alone to rebuild it or else it will blow.
That's the reality according to many who have raced the nationals in the 250 class and written about it online.
You say they can choose to race a two stroke but don't ....in the 250 class they are restricted to running a 125....half the engine capacity.
In the 450 class they are restricted to a 250
If they could all run 250 two strokes in the 250 class, KTM and Husquvarna could easily put their top riders on two strokes...factory prepped ones just like their four strokes and totally dominate the start of every race...outpost all the others on tracks with steep hills and deep sand or heavy loam.
There are some very knowledgeable posts but they are easily lost when there are so many that fail to distinguish the difference between ama, the amateur sactioning body, and the completely different organization, ama pro, which is pretty much mx sports.
The result has been severely detrimental to the sport from the ground up.
The loss of the 125 class at grass roots level has had a profound effect on participation rates...
The AMA allowed this situation of cheater bikes to occur and become the new normal, so much so that the manufacturers stopped making 125's as 250f's proved to be such an advantage in the 125 class.
I wonder just how many riders / family's switched from 125's to 250 f's , blew a motor and found out that it would make more sense to just buy a new bike than fix the old one? Then considered that the cost of racing was way too high and left the sport forever? I wonder how many?
I'm sure what you stated is technically the truth , but surely it amounts to nothing more than Buck passing?
My 450 requires a whole hell of a lot less parts than my 125, maintenance costs are not even in the same ballpark.... I
I never said maintenance costs were cheaper for a 125 ...I said that maintenance costs, more specifically, rebuild costs , are astronomical for a 250 f, than either a 125 or 250 two stroke.
I just recently bought an 06 yz 125 for reasonable money, put a piston kit in it and it runs strong ( cylinder is however badly worn )
I could go and buy an 06 yz 250 f for perhaps cheaper...but the likelihood of blowing the cylinder head is high for a hard rider on an old four stroke and the cost of repairs is ridiculous...in the $2 to $3k range just for the motor ( not including the bottom end )
Three weeks ago I bought a brand new yz 450 2017 model.... I don't hate four strokes. But I know I won't make that motor work anywhere near as hard as I would a 250 f... I won't be racking up many practice hours on it, it will be a race bike mainly. I will practice on my 125 and I will practice and race on a second hand 250 two stroke when I find
the right one for the right $$
I guess we will see how enamoured with your four versus two running costs comparison goes when you either drop a valve or rack up enough hours that it's time to rebuild the head or risk catastrophe.
I was initially keen to get a KTM 450.,,, a great deal..about $3k cheaper on the Yamaha , combined with their reputation for longevity in the motor department sold me
Did you read my original post?
Somebody said California isn't the government, man don't tell them that! Since California sells more Mx bikes than the rest of the whole wide world....
That is exactly what we need. More 16 year Olds riding 450s on jump infested tracks. More entry level riders hoping on a 450 before they even learn what throttle control means.
Where would our sport have been in the 70s if honda had only introduced a 250 elsinore?
The biggest root problem in our sport is that getting started in it is much harder than it used to be. And there are multiple factors that have combined into the perfect storm.
I often fear that we are only enjoying the calm of the eye right now.
Post a reply to: Make Motocross Great Again! Is it time to fire the AMA?