Make Motocross Great Again! Is it time to fire the AMA?

SoCalMX70 wrote:

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even...

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even if that were true, let's just keep glossing over the fact that anyone with half a brain can rebuild a 2 stroke engine bottom to top. How many people here are rebuilding their 4 strokes?

The top end on my YZ250 will cost me anywhere from $120 to $150 every 50 or so hours. Maybe less hours if I decide to race. Let's say the crank goes bad, but it didn't grenade... $400 to $500 for a bottom and top end kit (Motosport sells em, for example).

Let's say there is catastrophic failure (highly unlikely when you have proper jetting and check everything at every top end rebuild), maybe $800-1000 max in parts... And that includes a cylinder replate or fully replacing the cylinder.

$2k? No. Never. Sorry. Parts are easy to come by.

twotwosix wrote:

With the continued decline of entries in the 250 class at the nationals how long will it be before the AMA acknowledges that they have a...

With the continued decline of entries in the 250 class at the nationals how long will it be before the AMA acknowledges that they have a major problem with the current class rule structure?
Probably not.

Is it the new normal that we are going to see entry lists that will barely fill the gate for the first moto without qualifiers?
This is not necessarily the AMAs fault. I look more to FELD/MXsports

Is it the new normal that racing has become so expensive that local pros have lost all desire to even compete when the big show comes to town?
Yes, go race Arenacross if you can't afford it. Not everyone can afford to race INDY, F1, WSBK, MotoGP, Nascar, etc.

Is it the new normal we now have race teams that can’t make it through a weekend without nearly ALL of their riders losing at least one engine?
Stupid question. PC has been racing for decades with a solid track record. They get a hold of some bad valve train components and you want to crucify them.

Is it the new normal that someone talks about how “bulletproof” their new four stroke is because they have 25 hours on it without a catastrophic failure?
Stupid question. I have had many 250Fs and 450Fs go over 100 hours without anything other than maintenance and checks.

Is it the new normal that the racers just accept the fact the sanctioning bodies do what’s best for OEM’s and their bank accounts first and worry about what the racers can afford last?
Pretty common in Motorsports.

Is this what grass roots, entry level motorsports are supposed to look like? I don’t think so. The powers that be need to figure this out soon because the four stroke “revolution” is running the sport of motocross into the ground.
I disagree. 4 strokes vs 2 strokes does not have anything to do with the bigger issues of MX/SX.

I hear everyone throwing around all these ideas and potential rule changes in search of ways to keep a 250F engine from failing in a 30 minute national moto. Why over-think the problem when the simple answer is hiding in plain sight?
Engine failures are common in Motorsports when a new engine design is introduced to race teams looking to push the envelope. The modern, EFI 4-stroke MX bike is still a young machine.

Straight up 250cc motorcycle racing just like Canada and Australia. Why are we NOT racing bikes that are:

1. Less expensive to buy? Because we want to be a premier Motorsport that is pushing the competitive envelope.
2. Less expensive to maintain? It's a relativce vs the performance. I can buy and race what I want and I choose an EFI 4-stroke.
3. Much easier to work on? Again, relative to teh sport. A single cylinder, 4 valve, DOHC dirtbike engine pales in comparison to most other Motorsports engines as far as ease of rebuilding. Dirtbikes are easy to work on. Internal engine rebuilding is a skill that most all Motorsports reserve for trained mechanics however. I'm not taking the crank out of my R1 or my Corvette, nor my 450F.
4. Far more popular with fans? More people like 4-strokes man.
5. Far more popular on social media? More people like 4-strokes man.

blackdiamond wrote:

I don't have time to point out and validate all of the inaccuracies in your last post but anyone with 3 brain cells can figure it...

I don't have time to point out and validate all of the inaccuracies in your last post but anyone with 3 brain cells can figure it out.

Your ideas and answers land somewhere between delusional and retarded.

The point of the original post was not to argue that two strokes are better or not, it was to argue that the AMA needs to let the riders choose which unrestricted, equal displacement machine they want to ride. It all about CHOICE.

SoCalMX70 wrote:

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even...

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even if that were true, let's just keep glossing over the fact that anyone with half a brain can rebuild a 2 stroke engine bottom to top. How many people here are rebuilding their 4 strokes?

The top end on my YZ250 will cost me anywhere from $120 to $150 every 50 or so hours. Maybe less hours if I decide to race. Let's say the crank goes bad, but it didn't grenade... $400 to $500 for a bottom and top end kit (Motosport sells em, for example).

Let's say there is catastrophic failure (highly unlikely when you have proper jetting and check everything at every top end rebuild), maybe $800-1000 max in parts... And that includes a cylinder replate or fully replacing the cylinder.

$2k? No. Never. Sorry. Parts are easy to come by.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I raced 2 strokes 125 and 250 for 25 years and have only had a 450 for 5 years I could do a top end myself...

I raced 2 strokes 125 and 250 for 25 years and have only had a 450 for 5 years

I could do a top end myself but not a real rebuild Woody Kyle Racing used to do my motors

kkawboy14 wrote:

I would only purchase a new cylinder, rebuilt plated are never as good.

I've not yet had a grenaded 4 stroke

kkawboy14 wrote:

Crank rebuild and bearings, rod, cylinder, head and labor $2000 if it's all done right by somebody else

blackdiamond wrote:

You are off by about $1200. You are high (literally)

kkawboy14 wrote:

I would only purchase a new cylinder, rebuilt plated are never as good.

I've not yet had a grenaded 4 stroke

Dirty Points wrote:

Huh? Replated can be arguably better, since you often see harder coatings offered than what was put in by manufacturers.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I would only purchase a new cylinder, rebuilt plated are never as good.

I've not yet had a grenaded 4 stroke

Dirty Points wrote:

Huh? Replated can be arguably better, since you often see harder coatings offered than what was put in by manufacturers.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild. Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder. Maybe some of these guys...

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild.
Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder.

Maybe some of these guys are talking about riding around a citrus groves and power line trails?

SoCalMX70 wrote:

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even...

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even if that were true, let's just keep glossing over the fact that anyone with half a brain can rebuild a 2 stroke engine bottom to top. How many people here are rebuilding their 4 strokes?

The top end on my YZ250 will cost me anywhere from $120 to $150 every 50 or so hours. Maybe less hours if I decide to race. Let's say the crank goes bad, but it didn't grenade... $400 to $500 for a bottom and top end kit (Motosport sells em, for example).

Let's say there is catastrophic failure (highly unlikely when you have proper jetting and check everything at every top end rebuild), maybe $800-1000 max in parts... And that includes a cylinder replate or fully replacing the cylinder.

$2k? No. Never. Sorry. Parts are easy to come by.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I would only purchase a new cylinder, rebuilt plated are never as good.

I've not yet had a grenaded 4 stroke

kkawboy14 wrote:

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild. Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder. Maybe some of these guys...

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild.
Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder.

Maybe some of these guys are talking about riding around a citrus groves and power line trails?

SoCalMX70 wrote:

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even...

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even if that were true, let's just keep glossing over the fact that anyone with half a brain can rebuild a 2 stroke engine bottom to top. How many people here are rebuilding their 4 strokes?

The top end on my YZ250 will cost me anywhere from $120 to $150 every 50 or so hours. Maybe less hours if I decide to race. Let's say the crank goes bad, but it didn't grenade... $400 to $500 for a bottom and top end kit (Motosport sells em, for example).

Let's say there is catastrophic failure (highly unlikely when you have proper jetting and check everything at every top end rebuild), maybe $800-1000 max in parts... And that includes a cylinder replate or fully replacing the cylinder.

$2k? No. Never. Sorry. Parts are easy to come by.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I would only purchase a new cylinder, rebuilt plated are never as good.

I've not yet had a grenaded 4 stroke

cslacker wrote:

New Honda Cylinder is $300, cylinder head is $75, $150 for top end with gaskets, $210 for new 05-07 OEM crank. Lets even go so far...

New Honda Cylinder is $300, cylinder head is $75, $150 for top end with gaskets, $210 for new 05-07 OEM crank. Lets even go so far as you somehow have to replace the case halves(includes all new bearings)- $500. Brand new engine from honda for $1,235.00. Your numbers are ridiculous.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild. Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder. Maybe some of these guys...

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild.
Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder.

Maybe some of these guys are talking about riding around a citrus groves and power line trails?

mxracer816 wrote:

A grenaded four stroke can't be touched for 2k period. Worth more as parts at that point. A grenaded two stroke with 2k put back into...

A grenaded four stroke can't be touched for 2k period. Worth more as parts at that point. A grenaded two stroke with 2k put back into will be a MONSTER.

Dirty Points wrote:

Huh? Replated can be arguably better, since you often see harder coatings offered than what was put in by manufacturers.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild. Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder. Maybe some of these guys...

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild.
Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder.

Maybe some of these guys are talking about riding around a citrus groves and power line trails?

Dirty Points wrote:

Why add porting? Are you adding cam costs (conceptually the same) to the 4T? And hell yes: Citrus groves, power line trails, and the track on...

Why add porting? Are you adding cam costs (conceptually the same) to the 4T?

And hell yes: Citrus groves, power line trails, and the track on raceday. That's dirt bike life, as far as I am concerned.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild. Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder. Maybe some of these guys...

I was talking about a grenaded motor not a simple rebuild.
Add porting from a reputable guy for that new cylinder.

Maybe some of these guys are talking about riding around a citrus groves and power line trails?

Dirty Points wrote:

Why add porting? Are you adding cam costs (conceptually the same) to the 4T? And hell yes: Citrus groves, power line trails, and the track on...

Why add porting? Are you adding cam costs (conceptually the same) to the 4T?

And hell yes: Citrus groves, power line trails, and the track on raceday. That's dirt bike life, as far as I am concerned.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I don't know I've never had to do one. This is all a figuring this stuff out thread!

GrapeApe wrote:

The one guy that took the time to answer each of your queries, and you insult his intelligence and name-call. I enjoy unintended irony as much...

The one guy that took the time to answer each of your queries, and you insult his intelligence and name-call. I enjoy unintended irony as much as the next guy, but you should stick to bike build threads.

blackdiamond wrote:

Thanks for your input, I was clinging to the edge of my seat waiting for your opinion.

GrapeApe wrote:

Ok, my opinion is they should allow 250 2-strokes in the 250 class. It will have zero net effect on the sport, and the double displacement...

Ok, my opinion is they should allow 250 2-strokes in the 250 class. It will have zero net effect on the sport, and the double displacement threads will mercifully come to an end. The challenges this sport faces are far more complex than motor configuration at the professional level.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I would only purchase a new cylinder, rebuilt plated are never as good.

I've not yet had a grenaded 4 stroke

cslacker wrote:

New Honda Cylinder is $300, cylinder head is $75, $150 for top end with gaskets, $210 for new 05-07 OEM crank. Lets even go so far...

New Honda Cylinder is $300, cylinder head is $75, $150 for top end with gaskets, $210 for new 05-07 OEM crank. Lets even go so far as you somehow have to replace the case halves(includes all new bearings)- $500. Brand new engine from honda for $1,235.00. Your numbers are ridiculous.

kkawboy14 wrote:

Cool $1300.....so how many times a year do you guys have big failures on your bikes? My point is I've never had 1 on my 4...

Cool $1300.....so how many times a year do you guys have big failures on your bikes? My point is I've never had 1 on my 4 stroke.

NATEP231 wrote:

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking...

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking a toll...I guess I better start looking into interest rates for small loans. I am a small business owner and I can't afford to buy the adequate equiptment for my skill level (vet A) let alone the transportation cost and raising entry fee cost. This sport is killing itself and we are all just standing next to the death bed with fingers crossed in one hand and a ink pen for the loan officer in the other. Its sad. Been doing this since 1990, I've been a racer, pro practicer, track promoter, and now I have a son that I would love to get into the sport. But we are pricing out the littles guys so fast we will never ever grow....

NATEP231 wrote:

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking...

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking a toll...I guess I better start looking into interest rates for small loans. I am a small business owner and I can't afford to buy the adequate equiptment for my skill level (vet A) let alone the transportation cost and raising entry fee cost. This sport is killing itself and we are all just standing next to the death bed with fingers crossed in one hand and a ink pen for the loan officer in the other. Its sad. Been doing this since 1990, I've been a racer, pro practicer, track promoter, and now I have a son that I would love to get into the sport. But we are pricing out the littles guys so fast we will never ever grow....

NATEP231 wrote:

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking...

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking a toll...I guess I better start looking into interest rates for small loans. I am a small business owner and I can't afford to buy the adequate equiptment for my skill level (vet A) let alone the transportation cost and raising entry fee cost. This sport is killing itself and we are all just standing next to the death bed with fingers crossed in one hand and a ink pen for the loan officer in the other. Its sad. Been doing this since 1990, I've been a racer, pro practicer, track promoter, and now I have a son that I would love to get into the sport. But we are pricing out the littles guys so fast we will never ever grow....

GrapeApe wrote:

I hear you, but how will allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 class at the professional level help your situation?

NATEP231 wrote:

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking...

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking a toll...I guess I better start looking into interest rates for small loans. I am a small business owner and I can't afford to buy the adequate equiptment for my skill level (vet A) let alone the transportation cost and raising entry fee cost. This sport is killing itself and we are all just standing next to the death bed with fingers crossed in one hand and a ink pen for the loan officer in the other. Its sad. Been doing this since 1990, I've been a racer, pro practicer, track promoter, and now I have a son that I would love to get into the sport. But we are pricing out the littles guys so fast we will never ever grow....

GrapeApe wrote:

I hear you, but how will allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 class at the professional level help your situation?

Dirty Points wrote:

It will help his situation because it will broaden the base of affordable parts for him, rather than placing an AMA rules-enforced ceiling upon it, and...

It will help his situation because it will broaden the base of affordable parts for him, rather than placing an AMA rules-enforced ceiling upon it, and those manufacurers who would enter that market. It is a natural tapering towards the top of that laffler curve, versus a ridiculous artificially-placed plateau.

That makes shit more affordable for top level pros and mid-top amateurs, as any compensatory curve for top level pros would be very steep. Beyond that, it may be affordable, but not enough so to contribute financially (read as: "our factory shop can already produce that.")

Taotech wrote:

I was driving to the track, 2hrs away, with the only teenaged boy I know who has passion for this sport. I asked him if he...

I was driving to the track, 2hrs away, with the only teenaged boy I know who has passion for this sport. I asked him if he could only keep his cell phone or his KX125 which would he choose. Without hesitation he said his cell phone. Yikes! I hate cell phones!

GrapeApe wrote:

I hear you, but how will allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 class at the professional level help your situation?

Dirty Points wrote:

It will help his situation because it will broaden the base of affordable parts for him, rather than placing an AMA rules-enforced ceiling upon it, and...

It will help his situation because it will broaden the base of affordable parts for him, rather than placing an AMA rules-enforced ceiling upon it, and those manufacurers who would enter that market. It is a natural tapering towards the top of that laffler curve, versus a ridiculous artificially-placed plateau.

That makes shit more affordable for top level pros and mid-top amateurs, as any compensatory curve for top level pros would be very steep. Beyond that, it may be affordable, but not enough so to contribute financially (read as: "our factory shop can already produce that.")

GrapeApe wrote:

I'm not sure that makes sense, but assuming you are correct and his parts will become less expensive, what about his boots, helmet, knee braces, transportation...

I'm not sure that makes sense, but assuming you are correct and his parts will become less expensive, what about his boots, helmet, knee braces, transportation costs and entry fees? If he buys a 2-stroke and everyone is correct about how cheap they are to maintain, it seems like engine-specific replacement parts would make up a pretty small percentage of his family race budget.

Local racing, and even national-level amateur racing, is equal displacement across the board. That is far more important than a handful of guys showing up to a pro-national to try to make the top 40 on a 250 2-stroke.

NATEP231 wrote:

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking...

Oh shit I forgot after I rebuilt my 3 year old motorcycle I needed new boots and a helmet and my knee braces are also taking a toll...I guess I better start looking into interest rates for small loans. I am a small business owner and I can't afford to buy the adequate equiptment for my skill level (vet A) let alone the transportation cost and raising entry fee cost. This sport is killing itself and we are all just standing next to the death bed with fingers crossed in one hand and a ink pen for the loan officer in the other. Its sad. Been doing this since 1990, I've been a racer, pro practicer, track promoter, and now I have a son that I would love to get into the sport. But we are pricing out the littles guys so fast we will never ever grow....

GrapeApe wrote:

I hear you, but how will allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 class at the professional level help your situation?

SoCalMX70 wrote:

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even...

I'm getting a good laugh every time I see someone say that a 2 stroke costs just as much or more to maintain and rebuild. Even if that were true, let's just keep glossing over the fact that anyone with half a brain can rebuild a 2 stroke engine bottom to top. How many people here are rebuilding their 4 strokes?

The top end on my YZ250 will cost me anywhere from $120 to $150 every 50 or so hours. Maybe less hours if I decide to race. Let's say the crank goes bad, but it didn't grenade... $400 to $500 for a bottom and top end kit (Motosport sells em, for example).

Let's say there is catastrophic failure (highly unlikely when you have proper jetting and check everything at every top end rebuild), maybe $800-1000 max in parts... And that includes a cylinder replate or fully replacing the cylinder.

$2k? No. Never. Sorry. Parts are easy to come by.

kkawboy14 wrote:

If that 2 stroke grenades it will cost you $2000 to fix it. I have have owned my 450 for 2 and a half years now......hasn't...

If that 2 stroke grenades it will cost you $2000 to fix it.
I have have owned my 450 for 2 and a half years now......hasn't cost me a dime and starts every time!