Post Race Bike Inspections @ Dallas

USMCMXer
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USMCMXer 2/12/2017 9:40pm
2/12/2017 9:40pm
BobPA wrote:
Why would they be checking rod length?
tyler durden wrote:
Mr rotary coming thru with the engine knowledge.

I winder how many factories run longer rods for durability for higher revs
Pretty sure a longer stroke revs slower?
Dimblewambie
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Dimblewambie 2/12/2017 9:44pm
2/12/2017 9:44pm
BobPA wrote:
Why would they be checking rod length?
tyler durden wrote:
Mr rotary coming thru with the engine knowledge.

I winder how many factories run longer rods for durability for higher revs
USMCMXer wrote:
Pretty sure a longer stroke revs slower?
Longer stroke yes, longer rod = better top end
BobPA
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BobPA 2/12/2017 10:16pm
2/12/2017 10:16pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2017 10:19pm
BobPA wrote:
Why would they be checking rod length?
tyler durden wrote:
Mr rotary coming thru with the engine knowledge.

I winder how many factories run longer rods for durability for higher revs
I know what the purpose of a longer rod is, I was testing the waters to see if he did. Someone else already bit the bait thinking a longer rod increases stroke. Longer rods help revs to a certain extent, but the require a spacer and/or head and cylinder mods.My old man ran a long rod kit in his '96 YZ 250, supposedly the hot setup back then, used an aluminum spacer to keep port timing in check.

Ran a long rod crank in my SX-R stand up for a short time, never could get it to produce good power...Plus it ate up a lot of my time and effort for little gain.

And since you are being technical, it is a Wankel engine in my profile..Rotary engines are actually early radial designs in which the crank was stationary and the cylinders and crankcase rotate around it....Bro
46k
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46k 2/12/2017 11:46pm
2/12/2017 11:46pm

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Kenny Lingus
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Kenny Lingus 2/13/2017 8:47am
2/13/2017 8:47am
hillbilly wrote:
BTW,

What is the rule? Does the engine have to retain stock bore and stroke or does it just need to be 250cc ?

Bore and stroke has to be the same as stock as well as valve angles. Cylinder, heads and cases must be same material and style as OEM but can material added or removed.
Kenny Lingus
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Kenny Lingus 2/13/2017 9:01am
2/13/2017 9:01am
BobPA wrote:
I know what the purpose of a longer rod is, I was testing the waters to see if he did. Someone else already bit the bait...
I know what the purpose of a longer rod is, I was testing the waters to see if he did. Someone else already bit the bait thinking a longer rod increases stroke. Longer rods help revs to a certain extent, but the require a spacer and/or head and cylinder mods.My old man ran a long rod kit in his '96 YZ 250, supposedly the hot setup back then, used an aluminum spacer to keep port timing in check.

Ran a long rod crank in my SX-R stand up for a short time, never could get it to produce good power...Plus it ate up a lot of my time and effort for little gain.

And since you are being technical, it is a Wankel engine in my profile..Rotary engines are actually early radial designs in which the crank was stationary and the cylinders and crankcase rotate around it....Bro
Yes, you are right. A longer rod does not automatically change displacement. However, it can be an indication that the motor has been stroked.

Could you explain how a longer rod helps with "revs"? The long rod kit you speak of was for more torque if I remember right.
Mike 13
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Mike 13 2/13/2017 9:13am
2/13/2017 9:13am
86honda wrote:
They tore down the wrong bike (McElrath)
mx216 wrote:
Why, there's nothing there but a 250cc race engine? And they have been torn down multiple times.
It was meant as a joke since he had engine issues
Dtat720
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Dtat720 2/13/2017 10:09am
2/13/2017 10:09am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2017 10:09am
BobPA wrote:
Why would they be checking rod length?
tyler durden wrote:
Mr rotary coming thru with the engine knowledge.

I winder how many factories run longer rods for durability for higher revs
BobPA wrote:
I know what the purpose of a longer rod is, I was testing the waters to see if he did. Someone else already bit the bait...
I know what the purpose of a longer rod is, I was testing the waters to see if he did. Someone else already bit the bait thinking a longer rod increases stroke. Longer rods help revs to a certain extent, but the require a spacer and/or head and cylinder mods.My old man ran a long rod kit in his '96 YZ 250, supposedly the hot setup back then, used an aluminum spacer to keep port timing in check.

Ran a long rod crank in my SX-R stand up for a short time, never could get it to produce good power...Plus it ate up a lot of my time and effort for little gain.

And since you are being technical, it is a Wankel engine in my profile..Rotary engines are actually early radial designs in which the crank was stationary and the cylinders and crankcase rotate around it....Bro
Why test the waters other than to pump your ego? Bro.... pretty idiotic to admit thats what your post was for. And people wonder why the boards have gone to shit as of late. Testing the waters has a lot to do with it. Bro
BobPA
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BobPA 2/13/2017 11:33am
2/13/2017 11:33am
Dtat720 wrote:
Why test the waters other than to pump your ego? Bro.... pretty idiotic to admit thats what your post was for. And people wonder why the...
Why test the waters other than to pump your ego? Bro.... pretty idiotic to admit thats what your post was for. And people wonder why the boards have gone to shit as of late. Testing the waters has a lot to do with it. Bro
I was testing the waters to make sure people are not putting incorrect information on the boards. Sue me. If I would have corrected him i would have been a "dick". It is a lose lose really. You also need to work on your "bro" usage, it seems forced and ill-placed.

Here is a good read on rod length

http://www.stahlheaders.com/lit_rod%20length.htm

I ran a long rod setup in my jet ski because with the pipe, carb, ignition, porting, and prop combination I had the boat would make great power to the mid-range but would be banging off the (higher then stock) rev limiter even on short straights. I initially propped it different but it just never worked that well. The Kawasaki engine was designed as a recreation engine that anyone could ride, so it had a long stroke and broad torque curve. Since there is no transmission in watercraft you are left with one "gear" and I was looking to turn some bigger RPM. Stock boats turned 6500ish and I was up around the 8k mark. I had not even thought of a long rod crank and a guy I know on the west coast had one for me to try. It worked OK, but in the end I was limited by my pipe and porting set up. To make the whole package really work I would have had to go with a twin pipe setup and they were out of my price range. I got sick of the time and money aspect and sold it all...
Dtat720
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Dtat720 2/13/2017 11:40am
2/13/2017 11:40am
I dont need to read up on long rod or any other combo. Ive been building engines for 20+ years. Built one of the first 3s/5sgte stroker motors for mr2's. Figured out how to combine the tacoma blocks with 3s heads to make 2.6l strokers that can handle 35 psi of boost and over 1000 hp. I think i know a thing or 2 about engines
BobPA
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BobPA 2/13/2017 11:45am
2/13/2017 11:45am
Dtat720 wrote:
I dont need to read up on long rod or any other combo. Ive been building engines for 20+ years. Built one of the first 3s/5sgte...
I dont need to read up on long rod or any other combo. Ive been building engines for 20+ years. Built one of the first 3s/5sgte stroker motors for mr2's. Figured out how to combine the tacoma blocks with 3s heads to make 2.6l strokers that can handle 35 psi of boost and over 1000 hp. I think i know a thing or 2 about engines
Sorry to offend you bro, I guess you already know all there is to know about engine building. Me, I like to read and be informed as much as possible. 1000 horse at 35psi....sounds like an E85 setup I would assume?
philG
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philG 2/13/2017 11:48am
2/13/2017 11:48am
The AMA has the ability to check capacity without tearing down, but you have to check bore to ensure stroke is stock too.

Its a random check, happens in UK , GP's and any FIM event. I some cases engines are marked , and then stripped later in the presence of the engine guy.

We got done years ago for an illegal turbo, because the casting from the proprietry part got changed, and the homologation docs didnt get updated,

Its good that they keep on top of it.
tyler durden 2/13/2017 12:22pm
2/13/2017 12:22pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2017 12:23pm
BobPA wrote:
I know what the purpose of a longer rod is, I was testing the waters to see if he did. Someone else already bit the bait...
I know what the purpose of a longer rod is, I was testing the waters to see if he did. Someone else already bit the bait thinking a longer rod increases stroke. Longer rods help revs to a certain extent, but the require a spacer and/or head and cylinder mods.My old man ran a long rod kit in his '96 YZ 250, supposedly the hot setup back then, used an aluminum spacer to keep port timing in check.

Ran a long rod crank in my SX-R stand up for a short time, never could get it to produce good power...Plus it ate up a lot of my time and effort for little gain.

And since you are being technical, it is a Wankel engine in my profile..Rotary engines are actually early radial designs in which the crank was stationary and the cylinders and crankcase rotate around it....Bro
Kenny Lingus wrote:
Yes, you are right. A longer rod does not automatically change displacement. However, it can be an indication that the motor has been stroked. Could you...
Yes, you are right. A longer rod does not automatically change displacement. However, it can be an indication that the motor has been stroked.

Could you explain how a longer rod helps with "revs"? The long rod kit you speak of was for more torque if I remember right.
Decreases rod to piston angle putting less sideload on the piston.

Lengthening the rod will require raising wrist pin and/or increasing deck height to account for decreased combustion chamber area in order to avoid p to v contact

Torque comes from greater stroke, or greater main journal offset if you like.
Crush
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Crush 2/13/2017 12:42pm
2/13/2017 12:42pm
FGR01 wrote:
It's awesome keeping them honest. Remember when the AMA tested fuel and RC got busted. Then he threatened to leave Motocross. Everyone said the AMA don't...
It's awesome keeping them honest.

Remember when the AMA tested fuel and RC got busted. Then he threatened to leave Motocross. Everyone said the AMA don't know shit and has no business testing anything. RC got his 25 points back and went on to win the SX championship over Stewart by 23 points. Everyone was happy. Well, maybe not Bubba.
Phillip_Lamb wrote:
do a little fact checking. 2006 is when the event happened. the title went into Las vegas, Reed Stewart and RC finished only 5 point apart...
do a little fact checking. 2006 is when the event happened. the title went into Las vegas, Reed Stewart and RC finished only 5 point apart with RC winning.

the title was so close that the 25 point loss would have ended his title hopes, and he threated to stop running the series and show up at hangtown, suddenly they realized the effect on the title chase and they renig'd on it
Wasn't 5 points.

http://vault.racerxonline.com/2006/sx/points
Dtat720
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Dtat720 2/13/2017 1:28pm
2/13/2017 1:28pm
Dtat720 wrote:
I dont need to read up on long rod or any other combo. Ive been building engines for 20+ years. Built one of the first 3s/5sgte...
I dont need to read up on long rod or any other combo. Ive been building engines for 20+ years. Built one of the first 3s/5sgte stroker motors for mr2's. Figured out how to combine the tacoma blocks with 3s heads to make 2.6l strokers that can handle 35 psi of boost and over 1000 hp. I think i know a thing or 2 about engines
BobPA wrote:
Sorry to offend you bro, I guess you already know all there is to know about engine building. Me, I like to read and be informed...
Sorry to offend you bro, I guess you already know all there is to know about engine building. Me, I like to read and be informed as much as possible. 1000 horse at 35psi....sounds like an E85 setup I would assume?
Never tried e85, it was just coming out when i built that motor and the ethanol fuels out at the time would erode fuel systems. It was 114 with Haltech management and a water/methanol system. Ridiculous power for an MR2 haha
tyler durden 2/13/2017 2:52pm
2/13/2017 2:52pm
Dtat720 wrote:
I dont need to read up on long rod or any other combo. Ive been building engines for 20+ years. Built one of the first 3s/5sgte...
I dont need to read up on long rod or any other combo. Ive been building engines for 20+ years. Built one of the first 3s/5sgte stroker motors for mr2's. Figured out how to combine the tacoma blocks with 3s heads to make 2.6l strokers that can handle 35 psi of boost and over 1000 hp. I think i know a thing or 2 about engines
BobPA wrote:
Sorry to offend you bro, I guess you already know all there is to know about engine building. Me, I like to read and be informed...
Sorry to offend you bro, I guess you already know all there is to know about engine building. Me, I like to read and be informed as much as possible. 1000 horse at 35psi....sounds like an E85 setup I would assume?
Dtat720 wrote:
Never tried e85, it was just coming out when i built that motor and the ethanol fuels out at the time would erode fuel systems. It...
Never tried e85, it was just coming out when i built that motor and the ethanol fuels out at the time would erode fuel systems. It was 114 with Haltech management and a water/methanol system. Ridiculous power for an MR2 haha
hey Dtat,

what was the deal with people drilling oil holes in the pistons on the third gens?
was the oil consumption problem more due to disintegrating cats?
Mx286
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Mx286 2/13/2017 3:22pm
2/13/2017 3:22pm
Here's my question, what happens if your a true privateer and you get torn down? Not having your own mechanic would they supply you with one? If I was the rider I'd be a nervous wreck if someone who I didn't know was to take it apart and put it back together.

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hillbilly
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hillbilly 2/13/2017 3:53pm
2/13/2017 3:53pm
A onger rod increases piston dwell time changing the point of combustion in relation to crank position.

There is a thing called rod ratio, rod length vs stroke.

Just sticking a long rod in and th rowing a spacer under the cylinder is kinda like boost bottles .
RyanD797
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RyanD797 2/13/2017 4:04pm
2/13/2017 4:04pm
I'm pretty sure they tear it down, measure, and hand it back to you. I don't think you get the "luxury" of them putting it back together.
Dtat720
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Dtat720 2/13/2017 4:15pm
2/13/2017 4:15pm
BobPA wrote:
Sorry to offend you bro, I guess you already know all there is to know about engine building. Me, I like to read and be informed...
Sorry to offend you bro, I guess you already know all there is to know about engine building. Me, I like to read and be informed as much as possible. 1000 horse at 35psi....sounds like an E85 setup I would assume?
Dtat720 wrote:
Never tried e85, it was just coming out when i built that motor and the ethanol fuels out at the time would erode fuel systems. It...
Never tried e85, it was just coming out when i built that motor and the ethanol fuels out at the time would erode fuel systems. It was 114 with Haltech management and a water/methanol system. Ridiculous power for an MR2 haha
tyler durden wrote:
hey Dtat, what was the deal with people drilling oil holes in the pistons on the third gens? was the oil consumption problem more due to...
hey Dtat,

what was the deal with people drilling oil holes in the pistons on the third gens?
was the oil consumption problem more due to disintegrating cats?
3rd gen mr2 or 3rd gen 3sgte? I never messed with the 1zz spiders. Didnt mess with the 3rd gen 3sgte either. Manifold set ups were retarded. I stayed with the 91-95 2nd gen stuff and 1jzgte swaps in 3rd gen supras
tyler durden 2/13/2017 6:08pm
2/13/2017 6:08pm
yea the 1zz. nice.
TXDirt
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TXDirt 2/13/2017 6:24pm
2/13/2017 6:24pm
They should also test the oil cause a lot of guys are using it. It's not right in my book.
Dtat720
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Dtat720 2/13/2017 6:55pm
2/13/2017 6:55pm
tyler durden wrote:
yea the 1zz. nice.
Only thing i can think of without reading up on the mod is the gte motors had oil injectors tapped in to the oil galleys in the blocks at the base of each cylinder that under pressure shot oil to the under side of the pistons. the 1zz may not have them and under boost the cylinders need more oiling than stock and the pistons need more cooling than stock. The ge and fe motors didnt have those oil injectors.
kzizok
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kzizok 2/13/2017 9:26pm
2/13/2017 9:26pm


OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 2/13/2017 10:29pm
2/13/2017 10:29pm
Do they fully tear them down? They could just check displacement with the engine fully assembled to see if it's in an acceptable range. An engine could pass that test and still be illegal for many other reasons. Maybe the AMA's really doesn't want to "see" too much?
Ross_McWatters 2/13/2017 11:35pm
2/13/2017 11:35pm
F150Motocrosser wrote:
Is Jeff Cernic implying something here, or just honestly giving the AMA an atta'boy for performing due diligence? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/02/12/175709/s1200_IMG_8059.jpg[/img]
Is Jeff Cernic implying something here, or just honestly giving the AMA an atta'boy for performing due diligence?



I worked for Three Factory Teams here in Australia (YAMAHA KAWASAKI and KTM) and each and every contract had a clause that stated if caught cheating under the racing rules or laws of the land your contract would be cancelled. There was no one I was working with who would want to cheat the rules at the Professional end of the sport.

In Motocross I feel it is 90% rider 5% Bike and 5% Dumb luck! 250 class power is some what of an issue but 450 most mapping and tuning at the track in de tuning and softening it up for ridability.

Road Racing wise they cheat like crazy HP is everything!

David934
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David934 2/14/2017 1:04am
2/14/2017 1:04am
Kenny Lingus wrote:
Was this from a protest or just random testing? What would be illegal other than larger displacement? I know in a lot of forms of motorsports...
Was this from a protest or just random testing? What would be illegal other than larger displacement?

I know in a lot of forms of motorsports if a protest is made it has to be about a specific thing. I know lots of car racers and they will do all sorts of shit knowing that if protested, the chance of finding that exact thing is almost impossible. One guy told me that he ports his heads, which is illegal in his class, then goes back and acid etches the ports to make them look stock.
I thought that is under protest only.., Im wrong?
drumheller34 2/14/2017 5:31am
2/14/2017 5:31am
Some of you know-it-alls always make my morning, thank you once again. Much appreciated
sesker15
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sesker15 2/14/2017 7:46am
2/14/2017 7:46am
Will they do this when outdoors come around?

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