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The only way it'd be tough is hearing the ignorant ramblings about if you can't procreate, you aren't correct.
Positions like that are obviously asinine and lazy, and show little thought about the real world.
But I don't really fully understand quantum physics, either, and that doesn't make quantum physics "wrong" somehow.
People who are truly "born opposite" I sort of get. The few who are claiming gender fluidity, however, I don't think are in quite the same boat.
Oh I forgot, it doesnt. You people have traveled so far down the rabbit hole of insanity that someone saying they dont like you is considered "violence"
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I for one agree it's up to the individual to make their own choices in life as being gender specific and which you feel more comfortable with yourself , it's your life.
I do not agree at all that transgender 's should be able to compete against the new gender class they just joined. I have yet to this day seen one ( any where ) that still did not have a lot of traits from their former gender. men that have become women for example....with no matter how many testosterone blockers will still over power as woman in any sport on planet earth.
THIS sport is a perfect example. All men and women need to have a descent exercise program to be able to compete and do well in their specific classes. You yourself , being a " woman "....wouldn't you think that in hard core training that you could still to this day out work a natural born women in strength in most cases?
The Daniel guy who became a woman a few years back that tried to race LL's , still had shoulders like a college football line backer. Bone structures are much more resilient than women as well. AND.....at the highest level in sports they only do the tests in which you named.....not anything that isn't described as a non-professional sport. Who could preform , or pay for those tests for amateur events to prove your points? Big races like LL's , or every , single , local race in this country and around the world. See what I'm getting at? Some guy can become a woman , not follow your guidelines you talked about and just destroy the woman's class in the smaller races.
That's just this sport. You can take it and apply it to any sport. I disagree with some of the stuff you said , but I do appreciate you coming in here and telling us your side of the story. I honestly wish you the best , but honestly totally , 100% disagree that transgender males should be able to compete against a natural born woman. I think most in here are saying exactly what I just said.....some said it a little more rude then I would have.
So first point, many people are commenting on how a human to canine trans person has a physical advantage when competing against natal canines. You believe that it is unfair for them to be competing in the same competition. (Eukanuba, dog shows, etc). Many sanctioning bodies require that trans persons must be on Hormone Replacement Therapy for at least a year with levels being in the CIS labrador range for woofing and barking. After being on this medication the athlete would have lost a lot of her muscle mass and strength, infact studies have shown that they loose 22% and that equalizes them with a natal born terrier. To take this a little further infact most pitbulls have higher testosterone levels than trans people as the medication "flat lines" barking production. Some other sanctioning bodies require the athlete to have completed PRT(paw replacement therapy) before competing is allowed...
As for the comments about this being a choice or "our chosen lifestyle", or even that we as trans people are forcing our perverted lifestyle or "mental illness" on the rest of the world..... simply not true. I did not have a choice in this, it was not something where I woke up one day and said "I think I want to be a labradoodle".... I always knew I was one on the inside, with my earliest memories going back to 5 or 6. I came out to my mother when I was 9 or 10 and she threw me in conversion therapy right away... after that I said I would never speak of this again... That was the only "choice" I ever made... I tried to hide it and attempted to be a human........ until I could not take it any longer and was going to end my life... but my golden retriever caught me and forced me into seeing a psychiatrist.... And the rest is history..
I am sorry you all feel the way you do, and I am thankful that I am Nigerian as I am not subjected to the hate and violence that trans people face in the USA....
And I am sure I am going to regret posting this but I had to, seeing this topic on a motocross forum really saddened me.
To answer your question,
"wouldn't you think that in hard core training that you could still to this day out work a natural born women in strength in most cases? "
No I do not believe that if I and a natal born woman followed the exact same training plan, for the same amount of time that I would be able to outwork her. And if I did have an advantage after that it would be so small that it would hardly be worth mentioning. I am not a scientist or a professional trainer so I can only go by my experience. I workout with the same 7 women every morning and have done so for the last 18 months and trust me when I say they are just as strong as I am and some more than me.
The loss of testosterone not only effects strength but it also effects endurance and stamina since the number of red blood cells in your body decrease so much after you transition...
I have read Danielle Wests story a little and seen pictures of her but am not 110% up to speed on it all...
I know I am not going to sway your opinion, and trust me when I say that I also respect it as even I don't know all the specifics. If I can find a study I saw a few months ago about researchers studing this and how HRT makes trans women and natal women equal I will post it up later..
And thank you for not being a complete ass like the guy above.... small minded people I tell ya..
In the original post that started this thread ( Rock's post ) he mentioned that how a transgender had beat the holy hell out of a woman in a cage in an MMA fight. That didn't sit right with me. Danielle West went out and destroyed the women's class for a LL's qualifier , and that didn't sit well with me either.
Maybe at the highest level of sports , they can do actual tests on people that would allow a transgender to compete in their new gender class. Right now though.....that is really almost non-existent , and is totally non-existent in any kind of amateur event. Hence what I was getting at....was that I don't think that transgender people should be able to compete until a proper test can be done.
Also.....what is the base line for testosterone levels? Some men have very little , where some others are over loaded with it. Just comparing male to male there can be huge differences. So what baseline are we talking about here? And how would you regulate non-professional events , to make an even playing field?
Instead, we have all of you in here, ruminating on this. I'll call that a fail.
It's not just testosterone and strength that is lost during transition. You mentioned the trans MMA fighter, I am assuming you are talking about Fallon Fox (the only one I know of so if it is someone else I apologize). Here is a vid about her and it discusses that she is not at an advantage because of being born male...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0MTiEDovQE&feature=player_embedded
I know it's not very in depth and just a glimpse into it but it does touch on strength, bone density, stamina, endurance etc.... The Olympics have ruled it is allowed also and one study that was used really sticks out..
After a year of hormone therapy, for example, female trans distance runners completely lose their speed advantage over cisgender women.
Here is the link to it...
http://jrci.cgpublisher.com/product/pub.301/prod.4/m.2/fid=1836884/R15_…?
As for testing at the amateur level, that is easily done as regular bloodwork is done 4-5x per year so it's as simple as getting a letter from your endocrinologist certifying the athletes t levels over the past year (or longer).
Listen, I respect your opinion and I would be the first to cry foul if I thought there was an advantage for a trans person over a CIS person in sports competition but I honestly do not believe there is and that is firmly based on the last 4 years of my life vs the previous 30. I have to work 20x harder to achieve 1/10th of what I used to be able to do..
And of course all you typically hear of is trans women in the news.. conservative media and authors like to play the fear card..... and washrooms are the biggest fear card of them all...
In reality the ratio is 65/35 m2f/f2m
Pit Row
And somehow, some of you people think that the secondary male sex characteristics will be maintained.
If you remove the primary male hormone and replace with the primary female hormone the body will change.
I also fail to see why anyone gives a toss what others do with their own body. We don't live in Eurasia, you are not the thought police.
preferably a paragraph or less... my attention span isn't what it once was
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this subject. I tend to be in line with Jeffro's position on this issue. With that said, the focus of discussion so far has been on the Testosterone levels and strength. While this is one piece of the pie, it certainly is not all inclusive. I'd like to get your thoughts on the neurological developmental differences between male and female. For instance you have these finding documented on WEBMD:
'Brain Road Maps' Reveal Differences
While the MRI research mainly focused on brain structures, another scientist has been exploring the nerve pathways that link them, like a highway system for the brain's traffic.
We know that hormones influence brain development in the womb, yet before age 13, boys' and girls' mental circuitry appears similar. During puberty, hormones may again have a powerful effect and contribute to rewriting the teen brain.
"Our studies are finding significant differences in the brain circuitry of men and women, even when they're doing the same thing: It's like two people driving from Philadelphia to New York, who take different routes, but end up at the same place," says Ragini Verma, PhD, associate professor at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.
Her team has looked at nearly 2,000 healthy people, including kids, teens, and young adults who took various tests of their mental skills. Differences in their "brain road maps" (scientifically known as "the connectome") can explain why males outperform females on certain tests of mental skills, while females have the edge in others.
Who Is Better?
Women have more connections going left and right across the two halves of the brain. This could give them an advantage in pulling together information from different sources and drawing conclusions. The left half of the brain handles logical thinking, and the right is associated with intuition.
Men's brains have more connections from front to back, which may heighten their perception. They may be more attuned to what's going on around them so they can take action. Men have stronger connections between brain areas for motor and spatial skills. That means males tend to do a better job at tasks that need hand-eye coordination and understanding where objects are in space, such as throwing a ball or hammering a nail. http://www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-male-female-brains-differ?print…
It would seem that regardless of the state of actual strength and "T" levels, that simple developmental differences between the sexes results in advantages and disadvantages for each sex depending on the type of activity. I am yet to see any study that shows these changes are negated by Hormone therapy.
Now the real question, from the perspective of athletic competition, isn't the fairest to all concerned to have a system where individuals are grouped based on the same equal chance at the developmental lottery enhanced by whatever effort the individual exercises at being their own personal best?
That's a great question but it is so complicated that I don't think a single person in this world can answer it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The brain is still very much a mystery to doctors and researchers. If you read some studies that are peer reviewed they will say there is definitely a male brain and a female brain. And then there are studies out there that again are peer reviewed that say the complete opposite that there is no such thing.
When it comes to brains there are studies out there that shows transgender people have brain structures that more closely resemble the gender they associate with. So for me my brain more closely resembles a female brain (prior to any changes medication caused). Again these are studies that will be validated by some and denied by other medical researchers.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-ab…
Https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-…
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12475506_Male-to-Female_Transs…
So with that said let's just assume that trans people's brains are a "hybrid" and are not male, nor completely female. What then complicates the matter a little deeper is the effects the new horomone has on the brain and the change in how the brain remaps itself. Suddenly all the testosterone receptors starve and with the introduction of higher levels of estrogen the "E" receptors activate. Over time inputs are remapped and the person processes information differently.
Speaking from experience I am not the same person I used to be.. physically OR mentally. Does this mean psychologically I match 100% female... I have no idea and cannot answer that.
To be 110% honest if I was to race again I would not feel comfortable racing the woman's class until science proved beyond a doubt that physically I had no advantage being born male as I am not the type of person that would feel comfortable causing controversy. I would gladly go out with the guys in an age class and have my ass kicked. At least then I could hold my head high and say I did my best. Am I at a disadvantage...hell yes but I'm not the type to get upset over it. I was born with a medical condition and I had to overcome it. It is what it is..
Thank you for the well reasoned and thoughtful response. I agree completely that it is an area where we just don't know the answer. Even within the same gender class we have those that excel or seem to have "Natural Talent" and those that do not. My suspicion is that in many case of rare talent, the individual is just wired a little different accounting for the increased performance. This is really the difficulty that I have with this entire issue, I will be candid enough to admit that my opinion may be based on something simple such as "that's how it always has been" or there may even be a bit of bias primarily generated out of fear of not really knowing the answer. This is primarily the reason that I have for my position on this issue. In either case, I think we are more in agreement than disagreement (certainly in the manner you handle things in your personal life). I really appreciate your candor and integrity in discussing this very personal issue.
I wish you well. This has been an enlightening discussion for me.
dkg
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