So guess who won? 450 Shootout is live...

TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/11/2016 8:33am
12/11/2016 8:33am
Derek Harris wrote:
cant edit above^^ if manufacturers stuck with certain design aspects for longer periods. The honda 250f is slow stock now... but teams like geico are probably...
cant edit above^^

if manufacturers stuck with certain design aspects for longer periods.
The honda 250f is slow stock now... but teams like geico are probably extremely happy when last years hard work still works this year..
Only if it yields a truly fast engine
BobPA
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BobPA 12/11/2016 8:44am
12/11/2016 8:44am
Cheddar wrote:
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800...
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800 off the retail price? I'd buy it.
I would say 1-2lbs max. By the time you install a kicker, added gears, springs, bearing, and a larger engine case...what would be the point? Go hand crank your car ya dinosaur. Laughing
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/11/2016 8:58am
12/11/2016 8:58am
Cheddar wrote:
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800...
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800 off the retail price? I'd buy it.
BobPA wrote:
I would say 1-2lbs max. By the time you install a kicker, added gears, springs, bearing, and a larger engine case...what would be the point? Go...
I would say 1-2lbs max. By the time you install a kicker, added gears, springs, bearing, and a larger engine case...what would be the point? Go hand crank your car ya dinosaur. Laughing
You'd have to use the EXC cases that have the kickstart-boss protruding above the rear of the cases, kickstart gears and spring & shaft, then you have to reroute the header/mid-pipe...

I'm betting it saves very little.
Derek Harris 12/11/2016 10:23am
12/11/2016 10:23am
Derek Harris wrote:
cant edit above^^ if manufacturers stuck with certain design aspects for longer periods. The honda 250f is slow stock now... but teams like geico are probably...
cant edit above^^

if manufacturers stuck with certain design aspects for longer periods.
The honda 250f is slow stock now... but teams like geico are probably extremely happy when last years hard work still works this year..
TeamGreen wrote:
Only if it yields a truly fast engine
I think they are happy.

Next gen 250 will copy 450 with finger followers and more down draft and have the next step potential

The engines will soon resemble moto3 design

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JB479
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JB479 12/11/2016 10:23pm
12/11/2016 10:23pm
Cheddar wrote:
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800...
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800 off the retail price? I'd buy it.
BobPA wrote:
I would say 1-2lbs max. By the time you install a kicker, added gears, springs, bearing, and a larger engine case...what would be the point? Go...
I would say 1-2lbs max. By the time you install a kicker, added gears, springs, bearing, and a larger engine case...what would be the point? Go hand crank your car ya dinosaur. Laughing
That button is magic.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 12/12/2016 12:45am
12/12/2016 12:45am
Cheddar wrote:
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800...
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800 off the retail price? I'd buy it.
BobPA wrote:
I would say 1-2lbs max. By the time you install a kicker, added gears, springs, bearing, and a larger engine case...what would be the point? Go...
I would say 1-2lbs max. By the time you install a kicker, added gears, springs, bearing, and a larger engine case...what would be the point? Go hand crank your car ya dinosaur. Laughing
JB479 wrote:
That button is magic.
yeah Fuck it, I am seriously thinking about Manny's advice, i.e. going the RX route
erik_94COBRA
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erik_94COBRA 12/12/2016 3:54am
12/12/2016 3:54am
ML512-

Great job on the 450 shootout. I really really like the format you all use with individual tester feedback, etc. Thanks for your hard work.

Now about that 250 2-stroke shootout...

Erik
Bramlett321
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Bramlett321 12/12/2016 4:57am
12/12/2016 4:57am
dcg141 wrote:
This year I'm riding a Husqvarna FX 350. I honestly feel like I can show up at any race, moto, hare scramble, enduro and put my...
This year I'm riding a Husqvarna FX 350. I honestly feel like I can show up at any race, moto, hare scramble, enduro and put my best foot forward. Since I most likely will do all of the above at some point I'm feeling good about my choice. I raced the RFGP in Ft Smith AR a couple of weeks ago and it was 2 hours of high speed sand whoops. Could have been brutal but was a fun ride all afternoon. I feel like a 450 would have worn me down and the suspension was really spot on. The new Huskys are some kind of sweet ride.
I raced that on a '13 KTM 450 last year and I wanted to kill myself when it was all over....to the point I said I'd never ride again lol. This year on a '16 KTM 300 and sang a different tune. Love that race but hate it in the same breath.
Bearuno
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Bearuno 12/12/2016 5:37am
12/12/2016 5:37am
Derek Harris wrote:
I think they are happy. Next gen 250 will copy 450 with finger followers and more down draft and have the next step potential The engines...
I think they are happy.

Next gen 250 will copy 450 with finger followers and more down draft and have the next step potential

The engines will soon resemble moto3 design
Honda's Moto 3 engine is a reversed cylinder head design........ I somehow doubt they will be seen to copy Yamaha's now signature design.

But, yes, Moto 3 shows just how much extra is to come from 250fs, if people are willing to pay for such performance. At GP level, they are said to be getting mid to high 50s in HP, all with pretty low rev limits, and quite a few 'controls' over specs and component usage.
Derek Harris 12/12/2016 7:42am
12/12/2016 7:42am
Derek Harris wrote:
I think they are happy. Next gen 250 will copy 450 with finger followers and more down draft and have the next step potential The engines...
I think they are happy.

Next gen 250 will copy 450 with finger followers and more down draft and have the next step potential

The engines will soon resemble moto3 design
Bearuno wrote:
Honda's Moto 3 engine is a reversed cylinder head design........ I somehow doubt they will be seen to copy Yamaha's now signature design. But, yes, Moto...
Honda's Moto 3 engine is a reversed cylinder head design........ I somehow doubt they will be seen to copy Yamaha's now signature design.

But, yes, Moto 3 shows just how much extra is to come from 250fs, if people are willing to pay for such performance. At GP level, they are said to be getting mid to high 50s in HP, all with pretty low rev limits, and quite a few 'controls' over specs and component usage.
Reversed has nothing to do with it, downdraft style port and subsequent intake tract do.

I know this for a fact, the geico engines were substantially stronger bottom to top than the first year honda moto3 engine, which came out around 46hp

The latest gen moto 3 engines are around 52-53 from mihindra and ktm maybe a tick more now, but im sure kibby and the star boys wouldnt be scared to drag race one...

mx317
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mx317 12/12/2016 7:47am
12/12/2016 7:47am
Great job on the shootout! I would love to see weights with a dry gas tank or with the same amount of gas in them to account for the different size tanks. Also, are you going to show the dyno charts with the different maps the bikes have?
Superdave19
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Superdave19 12/12/2016 7:58am
12/12/2016 7:58am
I didn't realize that the Honda was only 2 lbs lighter than the RMZ- That's not much-
dcg141
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dcg141 12/12/2016 8:04am
12/12/2016 8:04am Edited Date/Time 12/12/2016 8:08am
Bramlett321 wrote:
I raced that on a '13 KTM 450 last year and I wanted to kill myself when it was all over....to the point I said I'd...
I raced that on a '13 KTM 450 last year and I wanted to kill myself when it was all over....to the point I said I'd never ride again lol. This year on a '16 KTM 300 and sang a different tune. Love that race but hate it in the same breath.
I was sore for a couple of days after and that normally does not happen but the race was awesome. The conditions could not have been any better. Really fast pace for off road, I loved it. The 350 was the perfect ride. Got on the podium. The guy that won our class won the overall back in the 90's.
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motosurf 12/12/2016 8:19am
12/12/2016 8:19am
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
mxb2
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mxb2 12/12/2016 8:22am
12/12/2016 8:22am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
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GrapeApe 12/12/2016 8:28am
12/12/2016 8:28am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
That sounds awful
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motosurf 12/12/2016 8:32am
12/12/2016 8:32am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
GrapeApe wrote:
That sounds awful
Idk about all that. But I just think it's hilarious watching these old dudes trying to shed every bit of weight on there bike and consistently tinkering with it between motos on a track with nothing on it.
Lawrence929 12/12/2016 8:39am
12/12/2016 8:39am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
So if I weigh 140 pounds instead of 150 pounds the bike weighing 250 pounds will feel lighter?

Right on. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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mxb2
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mxb2 12/12/2016 8:41am
12/12/2016 8:41am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
Lawrence929 wrote:
So if I weigh 140 pounds instead of 150 pounds the bike weighing 250 pounds will feel lighter?

Right on. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Meaning, better fitness,ride longer,stronger etc.
motosurf
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motosurf 12/12/2016 9:13am
12/12/2016 9:13am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
Lawrence929 wrote:
So if I weigh 140 pounds instead of 150 pounds the bike weighing 250 pounds will feel lighter?

Right on. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
You obviously don't understand fitness.
GPrider
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GPrider 12/12/2016 9:25am
12/12/2016 9:25am
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
apples to oranges. Bike weight has nothing to do with the rider weight. Alway funny to see guys make this analogy.

Don't have time to explain it to you right now..
Dirty Points 12/12/2016 9:45am
12/12/2016 9:45am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
Lawrence929 wrote:
So if I weigh 140 pounds instead of 150 pounds the bike weighing 250 pounds will feel lighter?

Right on. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
If you are in great shape, losing 10 lbs will probably not make the bike feel lighter. If you are not in great shape, I would say doing the things to healthily lose 10 lbs will make the bike feel way lighter and easier to handle than removing 10lbs from it.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/12/2016 9:47am
12/12/2016 9:47am
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
GPrider wrote:
apples to oranges. Bike weight has nothing to do with the rider weight. Alway funny to see guys make this analogy. Don't have time to explain...
apples to oranges. Bike weight has nothing to do with the rider weight. Alway funny to see guys make this analogy.

Don't have time to explain it to you right now..
Pffffttt...

These kids nowadays!

Give up my Pacifico?
Put down the Burrito?

Heathens!

As for the original point underlying all of this...

How the bike ALLOWS you or ENABLES you to ride it is the point.

Case in point: the Suzuki was EASY to ride. If I had the time to really figure out those forks (smarter people than I probably need to be involved...like the guys at "Enzo") ...that bike would be pretty darn nice...
It's funny, as a group, we motoheads are hung up on looks and "newness" waaaay too much. When people say "they haven't changed the Suzuki in TEN YEARS!"...I just laugh.
Let you in on another secret, they sell the RMZ with "the button". Suzuki doesn't want us talking about it as an MX bike alternative and that's THEIR MISTAKE. RMX-Z...look into it. Bye the way, slightly lower compression, electric start...6 month warranty!
Also, is it just me or are people buying RMZs for really good prices?

Well, I could be wrong.
bvm111
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bvm111 12/12/2016 9:57am
12/12/2016 9:57am
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
GrapeApe wrote:
That sounds awful
motosurf wrote:
Idk about all that. But I just think it's hilarious watching these old dudes trying to shed every bit of weight on there bike and consistently...
Idk about all that. But I just think it's hilarious watching these old dudes trying to shed every bit of weight on there bike and consistently tinkering with it between motos on a track with nothing on it.
Its even funnier with the cycling crowd!

15000 dollar carbon aero everything, durace group, ramble on and on about grams this and grams that of each component. They then squeeze their 5 foot 6 inch 250 pound body into team spec licra and turn their noses up at me when I fly by on my 2004 cannondale with regular work out clothes on!


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Lunch_Box 12/12/2016 10:24am
12/12/2016 10:24am
motosurf wrote:
Idk about all that. But I just think it's hilarious watching these old dudes trying to shed every bit of weight on there bike and consistently...
Idk about all that. But I just think it's hilarious watching these old dudes trying to shed every bit of weight on there bike and consistently tinkering with it between motos on a track with nothing on it.
Jealousy cause the old dudes can afford to spend that kind of money on their bike? I know for a lot of "old" this is a hobby and way enjoy their time and money. Maybe they like to tinker.
BobPA
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BobPA 12/12/2016 10:39am
12/12/2016 10:39am
motosurf wrote:
Idk about all that. But I just think it's hilarious watching these old dudes trying to shed every bit of weight on there bike and consistently...
Idk about all that. But I just think it's hilarious watching these old dudes trying to shed every bit of weight on there bike and consistently tinkering with it between motos on a track with nothing on it.
Hilarious? What is funny about dudes who enjoy the sport tinkering with their bikes? They are the dudes I talk to about setup and product opinions....
Lawrence929 12/12/2016 10:49am
12/12/2016 10:49am
mxb2 wrote:
X2, eat right, less beer, gym. 10lbs there.
GPrider wrote:
apples to oranges. Bike weight has nothing to do with the rider weight. Alway funny to see guys make this analogy. Don't have time to explain...
apples to oranges. Bike weight has nothing to do with the rider weight. Alway funny to see guys make this analogy.

Don't have time to explain it to you right now..
Thank you.

I have been145 and ripped or 185 and a pure fat ass, either way A LIGHTER BIKE FEELS BETTER.
JohnRoy
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JohnRoy 12/12/2016 11:06am
12/12/2016 11:06am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
Post of the year
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 12/12/2016 11:13am
12/12/2016 11:13am
motosurf wrote:
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the...
I think it's hilarious you guys get so into the weight of bikes and HP like it's really going to effect your Sunday ride on the vet track
Exactly! No book report ever helped my racing!

ML512 even discredited the report by saying they don't have any control of the bikes sent to them.
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 12/12/2016 11:16am
12/12/2016 11:16am
Derek Harris wrote:
ml512, do the bikes recieve basic maintenance during the shoot/oil changes etc? do they all run on the dyno with same air filter oil, engine oil...
ml512, do the bikes recieve basic maintenance during the shoot/oil changes etc?
do they all run on the dyno with same air filter oil, engine oil, etc?

Do they use the same dyno tire, or wheels/tires that are on hand for testing at rt?

how many hours on the bikes before dyno testing?

Part of my making my living requires my dyno be repeatable... and learning what creates variance between engines is also a big part in how to make hp, as well as what creates variance in dyno results on unchanged test mules so you dont chase your ass going no where.

People would be very surprised to see how much power variance and losses there are to various oils as well oil fill amount.... its hugely important.

Most people are overfilled on some bikes... and its costly for dyno numbers.

And race techs dyno to my knowledge is an absorber water brake type. Sadly these can be very unrepeatable in data, and load time on the dyno (run time) is important for mapping purposes to accurately correlate to the track.

If I map for longer load times vs short you end up with different fueling. This is why bikes can dyno very similarly but feel very different as on track perception and mapping here is becoming more important than actual hp numbers for avg consumers
ML512 wrote:
Sadly, engine time is out of my control at times. If I receive a bike as a keeper before the Shootout, I have a strict rule...
Sadly, engine time is out of my control at times. If I receive a bike as a keeper before the Shootout, I have a strict rule to not put more than 10 hours on those, then some manufacturers give me bikes that have just been broken in and others will have bikes that have more time on them. The loan pool size depends on the manufacturer and they're all a bit different, so some have more bikes to work with then others. As for oil, OEM spec engine with fresh oiled air filters. Some have air filters they prepped, while ones I prep have Motorex air filter oil on them. They have my dyno tires, which I've left there since I always use them. They're a Bridgestone, I'd have to check the exact type. We use the OEM wheels, set at 30 PSI when ready to run.
This is what I was referring to ML512

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