So guess who won? 450 Shootout is live...

TeamGreen
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12/10/2016 7:01pm
JB 19 wrote:
Isn't the RX 18 pounds heavier though? Blink
Let me qualify my comments by stating something almost hard to believe: I make my money making Carbon and Ti goods!

The RX carries an extra 3.864 pounds of gas, has a lead acid battery, HEAVY tires, a kickstand assembly & a larger heavier plastic gas tank to hole that extra .625 gallons. I'm estimating this all adds up to about 12-14 pounds (allowing for a lighter battery in lieu of the lead-acid boat anchor, remove stand/left RX foot-peg mount and replace w/R part, MX tires...maybe 19", less gas...maybe even an OEM CR tank...and shrouds...etc.).

Oh, how about that electric starter? So, all that aside...

I'm quite sure your gonna see, right here on Vital, an RX turned CRF-R E/S (electric start). I get the sneaking suspicion it'll be just a few pounds heavier than an R...and, eventually, my accomplice and I will make it...

LIGHTER! (Because, when you see Kenny and Cole hitting that button...we'll be able to have our own versions of that Unobtanium!)

If I get to have my way...we'll build an "RCF" & throw PLENTY of Ti and Carbon goodies at it. Why?
Because...

We can.
TeamGreen
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12/10/2016 7:08pm
BobPA wrote:
What's that say about the transworld shootout?
JohnRoy wrote:
That more experienced, faster riders ranked the yz first...
I ain't no pro.

I rated the Yamaha 2nd. It was VERY easy to achieve lots of fast laps with it and I can adapt to changing lines/track conditions on it ,too. I think that some of the riders had more difficulty than I did finding "front to rear" balance on the YZF...the RMZ, too. The only bike I had that problem with was the KXF.
IceMan446
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12/10/2016 7:22pm
No Husky 350???
ML512
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12/10/2016 7:25pm
JohnRoy wrote:
That more experienced, faster riders ranked the yz first...
Our top rider, Tommy Weeck, is faster than any of the rider's Transworld had in their 250F Shootout and our second best, Zach Peddie and Transworld's best are about the same.

The Shop

ML512
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12/10/2016 7:26pm
IceMan446 wrote:
No Husky 350???
We just threw one 350 in for comparison sake, not to pull teeth between 350s.
stone881
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12/10/2016 7:32pm
JohnRoy wrote:
Anyone else catch the Transworld 250f shootout? Every test rider above novice skill level ranked the yzf 1st. The one and only novice rider ranked it...
Anyone else catch the Transworld 250f shootout? Every test rider above novice skill level ranked the yzf 1st. The one and only novice rider ranked it last.
What's that say about the vital 250 shootout?
Why are you talking about 250f shootouts here, this is a 450 shootout.
TeamGreen
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12/10/2016 7:37pm
IceMan446 wrote:
No Husky 350???
ML512 wrote:
We just threw one 350 in for comparison sake, not to pull teeth between 350s.
Bye the way...

The FC350 we had around during the photo shoot? Had that white crap in it that some of them get. Changed the filter...
Voila.
IceMan446
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12/10/2016 7:37pm
IceMan446 wrote:
No Husky 350???
ML512 wrote:
We just threw one 350 in for comparison sake, not to pull teeth between 350s.
Not complaining about it.

Just seemed weird that it wasn't in there since the KTM and Husky aren't the same from what we were told.
JohnRoy
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12/10/2016 7:47pm
ML512 wrote:
Our top rider, Tommy Weeck, is faster than any of the rider's Transworld had in their 250F Shootout and our second best, Zach Peddie and Transworld's...
Our top rider, Tommy Weeck, is faster than any of the rider's Transworld had in their 250F Shootout and our second best, Zach Peddie and Transworld's best are about the same.
Has ever been apart of a shootout before? Or is he a "novice" in that regard?
BobPA
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12/10/2016 7:48pm
JohnRoy wrote:
Has ever been apart of a shootout before? Or is he a "novice" in that regard?
Now you're just trying your hardest to be a jabroni.
JB 19
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12/10/2016 8:02pm
JB 19 wrote:
Isn't the RX 18 pounds heavier though? Blink
TeamGreen wrote:
Let me qualify my comments by stating something almost hard to believe: I make my money making Carbon and Ti goods! The RX carries an extra...
Let me qualify my comments by stating something almost hard to believe: I make my money making Carbon and Ti goods!

The RX carries an extra 3.864 pounds of gas, has a lead acid battery, HEAVY tires, a kickstand assembly & a larger heavier plastic gas tank to hole that extra .625 gallons. I'm estimating this all adds up to about 12-14 pounds (allowing for a lighter battery in lieu of the lead-acid boat anchor, remove stand/left RX foot-peg mount and replace w/R part, MX tires...maybe 19", less gas...maybe even an OEM CR tank...and shrouds...etc.).

Oh, how about that electric starter? So, all that aside...

I'm quite sure your gonna see, right here on Vital, an RX turned CRF-R E/S (electric start). I get the sneaking suspicion it'll be just a few pounds heavier than an R...and, eventually, my accomplice and I will make it...

LIGHTER! (Because, when you see Kenny and Cole hitting that button...we'll be able to have our own versions of that Unobtanium!)

If I get to have my way...we'll build an "RCF" & throw PLENTY of Ti and Carbon goodies at it. Why?
Because...

We can.
True. I forgot about the extra gas. I had already done that math yesterday. I would be curious to know how much the weight of the R changes by going electric start w/ lithium ion battery and remove kick starter.

I would probably prefer the cushy suspension and chassis of the RX. I'm currently riding a 14' rmz 450 that is well setup, but would really like electric start and less weight. Sounds like I should get a 350.
TeamGreen
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12/10/2016 8:18pm
JB 19 wrote:
Isn't the RX 18 pounds heavier though? Blink
TeamGreen wrote:
Let me qualify my comments by stating something almost hard to believe: I make my money making Carbon and Ti goods! The RX carries an extra...
Let me qualify my comments by stating something almost hard to believe: I make my money making Carbon and Ti goods!

The RX carries an extra 3.864 pounds of gas, has a lead acid battery, HEAVY tires, a kickstand assembly & a larger heavier plastic gas tank to hole that extra .625 gallons. I'm estimating this all adds up to about 12-14 pounds (allowing for a lighter battery in lieu of the lead-acid boat anchor, remove stand/left RX foot-peg mount and replace w/R part, MX tires...maybe 19", less gas...maybe even an OEM CR tank...and shrouds...etc.).

Oh, how about that electric starter? So, all that aside...

I'm quite sure your gonna see, right here on Vital, an RX turned CRF-R E/S (electric start). I get the sneaking suspicion it'll be just a few pounds heavier than an R...and, eventually, my accomplice and I will make it...

LIGHTER! (Because, when you see Kenny and Cole hitting that button...we'll be able to have our own versions of that Unobtanium!)

If I get to have my way...we'll build an "RCF" & throw PLENTY of Ti and Carbon goodies at it. Why?
Because...

We can.
JB 19 wrote:
True. I forgot about the extra gas. I had already done that math yesterday. I would be curious to know how much the weight of the...
True. I forgot about the extra gas. I had already done that math yesterday. I would be curious to know how much the weight of the R changes by going electric start w/ lithium ion battery and remove kick starter.

I would probably prefer the cushy suspension and chassis of the RX. I'm currently riding a 14' rmz 450 that is well setup, but would really like electric start and less weight. Sounds like I should get a 350.
Ride one and give it a shot. They are their own kind of fun...

What I enjoy most is that they will allow you to be "almost" 450 lazy and it still revs to the sky like a 250. Actually, it revs BETTER than some 250s. And, as I realized AGAIN today...they feel LIGHT.
PJ205
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12/10/2016 8:43pm
JohnRoy wrote:
Has ever been apart of a shootout before? Or is he a "novice" in that regard?
BobPA wrote:
Now you're just trying your hardest to be a jabroni.
Some people just seek attention any way that they can get it. Positive or negative, attention is attention.
kiwifan
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12/10/2016 8:56pm
On the 'agility' scale, what's the consensus out of the KTM, Husky, and Honda? ..all of them feel about the same in motion?
that is my take....I guess it could come down to price, given they are pretty close
12/10/2016 9:02pm
ml512, do the bikes recieve basic maintenance during the shoot/oil changes etc?
do they all run on the dyno with same air filter oil, engine oil, etc?

Do they use the same dyno tire, or wheels/tires that are on hand for testing at rt?

how many hours on the bikes before dyno testing?

Part of my making my living requires my dyno be repeatable... and learning what creates variance between engines is also a big part in how to make hp, as well as what creates variance in dyno results on unchanged test mules so you dont chase your ass going no where.

People would be very surprised to see how much power variance and losses there are to various oils as well oil fill amount.... its hugely important.

Most people are overfilled on some bikes... and its costly for dyno numbers.

And race techs dyno to my knowledge is an absorber water brake type. Sadly these can be very unrepeatable in data, and load time on the dyno (run time) is important for mapping purposes to accurately correlate to the track.

If I map for longer load times vs short you end up with different fueling. This is why bikes can dyno very similarly but feel very different as on track perception and mapping here is becoming more important than actual hp numbers for avg consumers
12/10/2016 9:07pm
I would just like to know exactly how good the traction control is on the husky and ktm, if it is any good at all. Some reviews say you cant notice it, some say it is great. Which is it?
ML512
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12/10/2016 9:13pm
ml512, do the bikes recieve basic maintenance during the shoot/oil changes etc? do they all run on the dyno with same air filter oil, engine oil...
ml512, do the bikes recieve basic maintenance during the shoot/oil changes etc?
do they all run on the dyno with same air filter oil, engine oil, etc?

Do they use the same dyno tire, or wheels/tires that are on hand for testing at rt?

how many hours on the bikes before dyno testing?

Part of my making my living requires my dyno be repeatable... and learning what creates variance between engines is also a big part in how to make hp, as well as what creates variance in dyno results on unchanged test mules so you dont chase your ass going no where.

People would be very surprised to see how much power variance and losses there are to various oils as well oil fill amount.... its hugely important.

Most people are overfilled on some bikes... and its costly for dyno numbers.

And race techs dyno to my knowledge is an absorber water brake type. Sadly these can be very unrepeatable in data, and load time on the dyno (run time) is important for mapping purposes to accurately correlate to the track.

If I map for longer load times vs short you end up with different fueling. This is why bikes can dyno very similarly but feel very different as on track perception and mapping here is becoming more important than actual hp numbers for avg consumers
Sadly, engine time is out of my control at times. If I receive a bike as a keeper before the Shootout, I have a strict rule to not put more than 10 hours on those, then some manufacturers give me bikes that have just been broken in and others will have bikes that have more time on them. The loan pool size depends on the manufacturer and they're all a bit different, so some have more bikes to work with then others. As for oil, OEM spec engine with fresh oiled air filters. Some have air filters they prepped, while ones I prep have Motorex air filter oil on them. They have my dyno tires, which I've left there since I always use them. They're a Bridgestone, I'd have to check the exact type. We use the OEM wheels, set at 30 PSI when ready to run.
ML512
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12/10/2016 9:19pm
JohnRoy wrote:
Has ever been apart of a shootout before? Or is he a "novice" in that regard?
Tommy was a fill-in after Robby Bell was injured for the 250F, but Tommy has a range of experience not only racing but a bit of time working with KTM's testing department when he rode for them. Zach Peddie is a long time friend of mine and I trust his opinion. I've been around him and listened to his feedback for years, he's a fairly sensitive guy to setup and knows what he's looking for. These guys gave me their honest opinion (Zach rides Yamahas personally) and that's all I can ask for.... I don't think it's been released yet, but I'm 99% sure Yamaha didn't win MXA's 250 Shootout either...
TeamGreen
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12/10/2016 9:25pm
I would just like to know exactly how good the traction control is on the husky and ktm, if it is any good at all. Some...
I would just like to know exactly how good the traction control is on the husky and ktm, if it is any good at all. Some reviews say you cant notice it, some say it is great. Which is it?
I've been trying it on allllll sorts of different situations: it works. The crappier and nastier the track conditions...the more you notice it.

Today, while riding some silt-covered hard-packed rut-infested single-track in the hills of Glen Helen on an FC350, I rode complete loops with and without it. Without it the bike would step out and launch off of rocks ALL THE TIME...
With it...I started to understand how Haaker does it!
12/10/2016 9:55pm
I would just like to know exactly how good the traction control is on the husky and ktm, if it is any good at all. Some...
I would just like to know exactly how good the traction control is on the husky and ktm, if it is any good at all. Some reviews say you cant notice it, some say it is great. Which is it?
TeamGreen wrote:
I've been trying it on allllll sorts of different situations: it works. The crappier and nastier the track conditions...the more you notice it. Today, while riding...
I've been trying it on allllll sorts of different situations: it works. The crappier and nastier the track conditions...the more you notice it.

Today, while riding some silt-covered hard-packed rut-infested single-track in the hills of Glen Helen on an FC350, I rode complete loops with and without it. Without it the bike would step out and launch off of rocks ALL THE TIME...
With it...I started to understand how Haaker does it!
Thanks, does it still give a little wheel spin? I race mostly flat track and enduro. It would be good if it still spun a little for flat track. As for enduro on my 2014 yz450f I'm struggling to keep going after the 4hr mark, I rode a 2016 husky 450 and the power was much more friendly, and the electric start was great. Stalling and having to kick the yz sucks after 4hrs too. Anyway I will be the owner of a ktm or husky in the next few weeks.
mx836
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12/10/2016 11:11pm
I'd just like to take a moment and point out to the know-it-alls who are always calling the RMZ a heavy pig, that it is a nine year old design that is still only two lbs heavier than the almighty new CRF and still two lbs lighter than the YZF!! Laughing
kiwifan
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12/10/2016 11:18pm
mx836 wrote:
I'd just like to take a moment and point out to the know-it-alls who are always calling the RMZ a heavy pig, that it is a...
I'd just like to take a moment and point out to the know-it-alls who are always calling the RMZ a heavy pig, that it is a nine year old design that is still only two lbs heavier than the almighty new CRF and still two lbs lighter than the YZF!! Laughing
yup agreed, the other weight factor is that the CRF and YZF have a lot larger power to weight ratio Smile

I dont doubt anyone thinks the RMZ is a good bike (at the end of the day they are ALL good or very good bikes) and can be made VERY good with dollars. The 2018 version should be interesting.
mx836
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12/10/2016 11:27pm
mx836 wrote:
I'd just like to take a moment and point out to the know-it-alls who are always calling the RMZ a heavy pig, that it is a...
I'd just like to take a moment and point out to the know-it-alls who are always calling the RMZ a heavy pig, that it is a nine year old design that is still only two lbs heavier than the almighty new CRF and still two lbs lighter than the YZF!! Laughing
kiwifan wrote:
yup agreed, the other weight factor is that the CRF and YZF have a lot larger power to weight ratio :) I dont doubt anyone thinks...
yup agreed, the other weight factor is that the CRF and YZF have a lot larger power to weight ratio Smile

I dont doubt anyone thinks the RMZ is a good bike (at the end of the day they are ALL good or very good bikes) and can be made VERY good with dollars. The 2018 version should be interesting.
I don't even own a Suzuki at the moment, but I do get a kick out of the moto crowd that jumps on a bandwagon and runs with it when they don't know what they are talking about. Very much looking forward to the 2018 model. I have a feeling it will probably still be down on power from both Honda and Yamaha, even if they finally do give it the long anticipated makeover.
mx836
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12/10/2016 11:28pm
I would just like to know exactly how good the traction control is on the husky and ktm, if it is any good at all. Some...
I would just like to know exactly how good the traction control is on the husky and ktm, if it is any good at all. Some reviews say you cant notice it, some say it is great. Which is it?
It's great, because you can't notice it.
12/11/2016 12:52am
Thanks for the shootout ( many here forget that you don't have to buy a mag to see it).

Btw. which 450 is fastest half throttle in third gear?
ML512
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12/11/2016 12:55am
mx836 wrote:
I'd just like to take a moment and point out to the know-it-alls who are always calling the RMZ a heavy pig, that it is a...
I'd just like to take a moment and point out to the know-it-alls who are always calling the RMZ a heavy pig, that it is a nine year old design that is still only two lbs heavier than the almighty new CRF and still two lbs lighter than the YZF!! Laughing
kiwifan wrote:
yup agreed, the other weight factor is that the CRF and YZF have a lot larger power to weight ratio :) I dont doubt anyone thinks...
yup agreed, the other weight factor is that the CRF and YZF have a lot larger power to weight ratio Smile

I dont doubt anyone thinks the RMZ is a good bike (at the end of the day they are ALL good or very good bikes) and can be made VERY good with dollars. The 2018 version should be interesting.
mx836 wrote:
I don't even own a Suzuki at the moment, but I do get a kick out of the moto crowd that jumps on a bandwagon and...
I don't even own a Suzuki at the moment, but I do get a kick out of the moto crowd that jumps on a bandwagon and runs with it when they don't know what they are talking about. Very much looking forward to the 2018 model. I have a feeling it will probably still be down on power from both Honda and Yamaha, even if they finally do give it the long anticipated makeover.
Yamaha and Honda both have spring forks and the Suzuki has Showa's SFF TAC... which is roughly 3 1/2 pounds lighter than the forks the Honda has... Give the Suzuki those, and it's now the heaviest bike. Just something to think about with weights with forks.
Samuel
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12/11/2016 4:48am
JohnRoy wrote:
Has ever been apart of a shootout before? Or is he a "novice" in that regard?
ML512 wrote:
Tommy was a fill-in after Robby Bell was injured for the 250F, but Tommy has a range of experience not only racing but a bit of...
Tommy was a fill-in after Robby Bell was injured for the 250F, but Tommy has a range of experience not only racing but a bit of time working with KTM's testing department when he rode for them. Zach Peddie is a long time friend of mine and I trust his opinion. I've been around him and listened to his feedback for years, he's a fairly sensitive guy to setup and knows what he's looking for. These guys gave me their honest opinion (Zach rides Yamahas personally) and that's all I can ask for.... I don't think it's been released yet, but I'm 99% sure Yamaha didn't win MXA's 250 Shootout either...
I just got my issue of MXA. the Yamaha got 3rd. This guy obviously owns a Yamaha and needs to feel validated.

It's okay JohnRoy, Yamaha is the bestest. It's the winner of the special shootout I just invented for you. It's a joint winner with SUZSUKI.

I'm amazed you still think it's normal for 6 pros of differing riding styles and sizes to come to an identical conclusion. Think it through before spouting off.
Cheddar
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12/11/2016 5:43am
Thoughts on KTM offering a kick start 450 to get it under 230lbs? How much weight would that shed? 3-5 pounds and shave $500 - $800 off the retail price? I'd buy it.
12/11/2016 5:46am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2016 5:47am
One comment I see in almost all the mags but disagree on... the rmz is outdated in looks.

Suzuki took heat from lots of places when they went to their current plastic which I would describe as sharp and pointy/small side number plates.

Fast forward 5 years and all the bikes now have adopted much of the same, pointy sharp ends and small side plates...

I feel the rmz is still a great looking bike despite being unchanged... and black and yellow is a hard color combo to beat.

I would suggest for the sake of the sport magazines maybe put more weight on bikes improving but in a manner parts still interchange year to year.
Can ride one color multiple years and have parts work... its good for the aftermarket, And "globally" could be cheaper for all riders if manufacturers
12/11/2016 5:49am
cant edit above^^

if manufacturers stuck with certain design aspects for longer periods.
The honda 250f is slow stock now... but teams like geico are probably extremely happy when last years hard work still works this year..

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