Lucas Oil Nationals need some work.......

motomike137
Posts
8180
Joined
4/22/2010
Location
Fenton, MI, USA
8/29/2016 4:26am
zehn wrote:
Are they really "core" fans then? Personally, I couldn't imagine something I'd rather watch than motocross racing, whether it be a tight battle for the lead...
Are they really "core" fans then?

Personally, I couldn't imagine something I'd rather watch than motocross racing, whether it be a tight battle for the lead (those never last more than a couple laps at most), or a 30+ second blowout because I love watching the art of motocross.

Artificially introducing some external factor to boost the "drama" or excitement of an otherwise organic form of sporting is completely asinine and severely jeopardizes the integrity of our sport.

Just my opinion. This post obviously ignores the casual fan who just wants to be entertained, but those types don't post here anyways.
mmcmx wrote:
x10000
^^^^^^^
Indy mxer
Posts
1870
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL, USA
8/29/2016 4:37am
I guess some guys didn't really read my original post. My main point was we need some tweeks and new ideas.
We all love the sport or we wouldn't be spending time on this forum.

I was there Saturday and the 450 race was boring as hell. The riders were mailing it in. Again, not bashing them because there wasn't much to race for. I'd like to see the races towards the end of the year have more relevance if possible.

I'm not saying we have to go to a NASCAR style chase. Just saying it should be discussed along with other ideas to improve the product.
And for the guys who say the chase didn't work, you're full of crap! I watch NASCAR every week and the racing has never been better. Did you watch yesterday? Guys were racing their asses off to get a spot in the chase. And crew chiefs were trying all kinds of different strategies.

It makes the all the races important. Playoffs work!

early
Posts
10017
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
8/29/2016 4:43am
Going to any motorcycle race and expecting NASCAR will always lead to disappointment.
Indy mxer
Posts
1870
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL, USA
8/29/2016 4:44am
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much better the racing is. More passing and closer racing. Just more action in general.

I have no clue why that is. Any thoughts?

The Shop

motomike137
Posts
8180
Joined
4/22/2010
Location
Fenton, MI, USA
8/29/2016 4:50am
The two races I was at in person (Red Bud & Washougal) both were excellent and exciting as hell in may ways. Anyone watching on TV will never get the feel you can have attending a National MX live and in person. They are a treat to attend, you get a long full day of moto spectating in watching many of the best racers in the world ply there craft. You can move around and watch from tons of different vantage points, bring in you own food and beverages (at most races) or grab something from great vendors. The pits are awesome and the vendor row that travels from race to race is a lot of fun too. I am sad it is over for another summer Sad
DonM
Posts
8819
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
Fantasy
8/29/2016 4:53am
Indy mxer wrote:
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much...
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much better the racing is. More passing and closer racing. Just more action in general.

I have no clue why that is. Any thoughts?
Shorter, tighter slower tracks.....Their track prep has been much better this year...our tracks are too long and too fast, it tends to separate riders. Lap time difference is usually about 15 to 30 seconds from GP's to US tracks...this last weekend was about a minute...Take a note on how much they will shorten GH and that will still be the longest track the GP's ride all year.
PastranaWho
Posts
1934
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Boogie Down Bronx, NY, USA
8/29/2016 5:02am Edited Date/Time 8/29/2016 7:50am
Indy mxer wrote:
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much...
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much better the racing is. More passing and closer racing. Just more action in general.

I have no clue why that is. Any thoughts?
The mxgp series is where is at. The racing is more intense , tracks vary from week to week , i see the riders cutting in and out to make passes , railing outside lines etc. Its fun watching the GP guys get creative on the track because the tracks allow it, not this slot racing you see in the ama nats. I dont miss a single GP race and with with ama nationals i could go on for a few rounds without watching it. And yes im a hardcore motocross dude. I know many top guys are out but i think the track prepping in the nats are adding to the boring racing. IMO
steveyd
Posts
112
Joined
12/8/2010
Location
South Bay, CA, USA
8/29/2016 5:33am
downard254 wrote:
I know they say a pro track is supposed to be difficult, but the ruts are so deep and long, that the riders seem to be...
I know they say a pro track is supposed to be difficult, but the ruts are so deep and long, that the riders seem to be racing the track more than the other riders. I can remember Unadilla years ago, when it was just a GP track and it was grass during practice. I don't remember the track rutting up so much. That being said, there were a multitude of lines you could choose from. Railing an outside, cutting in, squaring a corner. The riders could spend more time attacking another rider vs. trying to hold a line through a long rut. I mean let's face it, once into the rut in the turn, you are committed to that rut until it ends. Now, I like a rough track, but I want rough and chop, just not mile long ruts.
Part of what I used to like - going back some years - was the tracks were actually DIFFERENT. These days they all seem to be...
Part of what I used to like - going back some years - was the tracks were actually DIFFERENT. These days they all seem to be prepped the same, from one week to the next you don't see much difference, and as you say the ruts make it slot car racing.

What ever happened to a hard packed track once in a while? Dating myself but Calrsbad and the like made for some good racing. Soft one week, hard the next. SX is no better, same every week.

This.

Both of these.

Hard pack is not the devil.

Lack of diversity in track composition and preparation might be.

Remember when Red Bud was basically dirt, and not trucked-in sand?

Gatorback is gone. Binghamton is gone. Steel City is literally gone.

Southwick's return was welcomed by all.

At the other end of the spectrum, quit trying to turn every hard track soft, quit shoveling sand and mulch and wood chips into the soil at locations where the dirt naturally wants to pack, quit turning every track into never ending ruts and axle deep grooves that are entire corners and straightaways long, and maybe there'd be more races where more passing takes place.
PRM31
Posts
3732
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
Northern, VA, USA
Fantasy
8/29/2016 6:12am Edited Date/Time 8/29/2016 6:41am
I've seen a lot of variety since I started in the sport in the 70s. I think the coverage is actually very good today. The announcers can only do so much with what they are given. I was at Budds Creek and there was no racing for the win and very little racing in the pack.
Not a big fan of the turn, drag race over large jump, then repeat on the MX tracks. I personally prefer more natural, challenging terrain. Then there is the preparation... Somebody has made a conscious decision to till the tracks a foot deep or more, soak them completely, and then let them turn into what amounts to a slot car track. WTH?! I would really like to hear an explanation for that. Why? What is the intent? I almost turned off Unadilla. I didn't think it was possible to ruin that track. They did. Riders have no ability to cut across the track, make moves outside to inside or vice versa. They just get in a rut and go with it. I don't even like watching it.

MX Sports: DO YOU ACTUALLY WATCH THE RACING ON THESE TRACKS AND THINK, "YES, THIS IS WHAT WE INTENDED?"

I am a diehard fan, and I am dismayed at what is being done to these tracks.

The injuries are another big thing detracting from the racing, but I really don't know what to do about that. I don't think the heavier 4t 450s with 60++ HP and all that engine inertia is helping, but I doubt it will change anytime soon. It would be worthwhile to do a study on injuries over the last 20 years or so and see if any major causes or circumstances stand out.

I am not a fan of manufactured entertainment a la NASCAR. I don't mind if Roczen runs away with it. I watched him every lap at Budds, his body position, braking, cornering, throttle transitions and so on. He was so smooth, so balanced, it was masterful! I'd rather not see the equivalent of full course cautions to regroup the field, or starting over in points along the way. I'm ok with each race counting equally to a championship.
8/29/2016 6:50am
Indy mxer wrote:
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much...
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much better the racing is. More passing and closer racing. Just more action in general.

I have no clue why that is. Any thoughts?
DonM wrote:
Shorter, tighter slower tracks.....Their track prep has been much better this year...our tracks are too long and too fast, it tends to separate riders. Lap time...
Shorter, tighter slower tracks.....Their track prep has been much better this year...our tracks are too long and too fast, it tends to separate riders. Lap time difference is usually about 15 to 30 seconds from GP's to US tracks...this last weekend was about a minute...Take a note on how much they will shorten GH and that will still be the longest track the GP's ride all year.
GP tracks aren't tighter, neither are they slower in general. Main difference I noticed at the US tracks I've been where these tons of woodchips in it. Never seen on a Euro track before. But I think they have their benefits though.
TXDirt
Posts
7786
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX, USA
8/29/2016 7:10am
I thought overall the racing was very good this year. 250 class was amazing. The 450 class was good as well. Obviously Ken checked out and dominated. There were some good battles between others. Marvin, Eli, Barcia, Pourcel, Canard, Anderson, Lawrence, Bloss, etc

If you are looking to some how have 30 minutes of back and forth passing between the leaders that isn't going to happen.

You can definitely go back a few spots and see some great racing though.

I was looking at the lap times at Unadila and I believe Dean Wilson was dropping almost 10 seconds a lap to the leaders and Dean is a top ten rider. I'm not sure making a bunch of track changes to get that gap down to 5 seconds a lap is going to at all improve the racing or have any impact on the results. Just using that as an example.

There were a lot of injuries this year (seems that way every year) and I think that impacts the racing more then anything. Looking at the list of injured riders above and there is a lot of talent that was out this year. That has a huge impact on the quality of the racing more then anything.

GangGreen
Posts
482
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Mechanicsburg, PA, USA
8/29/2016 7:20am
downard254 wrote:
I know they say a pro track is supposed to be difficult, but the ruts are so deep and long, that the riders seem to be...
I know they say a pro track is supposed to be difficult, but the ruts are so deep and long, that the riders seem to be racing the track more than the other riders. I can remember Unadilla years ago, when it was just a GP track and it was grass during practice. I don't remember the track rutting up so much. That being said, there were a multitude of lines you could choose from. Railing an outside, cutting in, squaring a corner. The riders could spend more time attacking another rider vs. trying to hold a line through a long rut. I mean let's face it, once into the rut in the turn, you are committed to that rut until it ends. Now, I like a rough track, but I want rough and chop, just not mile long ruts.
Part of what I used to like - going back some years - was the tracks were actually DIFFERENT. These days they all seem to be...
Part of what I used to like - going back some years - was the tracks were actually DIFFERENT. These days they all seem to be prepped the same, from one week to the next you don't see much difference, and as you say the ruts make it slot car racing.

What ever happened to a hard packed track once in a while? Dating myself but Calrsbad and the like made for some good racing. Soft one week, hard the next. SX is no better, same every week.

steveyd wrote:
This. Both of these. Hard pack is not the devil. Lack of diversity in track composition and preparation might be. Remember when Red Bud was basically...
This.

Both of these.

Hard pack is not the devil.

Lack of diversity in track composition and preparation might be.

Remember when Red Bud was basically dirt, and not trucked-in sand?

Gatorback is gone. Binghamton is gone. Steel City is literally gone.

Southwick's return was welcomed by all.

At the other end of the spectrum, quit trying to turn every hard track soft, quit shoveling sand and mulch and wood chips into the soil at locations where the dirt naturally wants to pack, quit turning every track into never ending ruts and axle deep grooves that are entire corners and straightaways long, and maybe there'd be more races where more passing takes place.
The real problem may be as simple as MX Sport's harebrained decision to go to “Timed Practice”. It forces the riders to ride the fast line during practice, thus insuring a one-lined racetrack. They used to place hay bales on the insides, or in the good line during practice, to create more lines. Motocross is about racing, not just who can do ONE FAST LAP. Real racers, I believe, would like to see a return to morning qualifiers for the AMA Outdoor Nationals with timing used to limit the entries to two qualifiers each for the 125cc and 250cc classes.

The Promoters, AMA, MX Sports, and DMG have left the tracks I attended get rougher this year in my opinion and I like it. When the tracks are smooth and easy, everyone goes about the same speed.

They DID groom Unadilla AND Budds Creek even after practice, see attached.





8/29/2016 7:22am
The think I love most about motocross racing is that it, more than any other form of motorsport, highlights the abilities of the rider/driver. In F1 and MotoGP, the car or bike is the single biggest determinant in the success of a rider/driver. In NASCAR, the rules are such that no amount of talent can make the car go significantly faster than a driver of less talent. The limit of the car in NASCAR is far below what the talent of the drivers can do.

I want to see excellence in achievement. If one person is heads and shoulders above their competition, I want to see that. I don't want to see their talent hidden in the interest of entertaining TV audiences. That motocross highlights the talent of the riders above other factors is something that we should embrace. That is sometimes results in complete domination is not a bad thing at all.

We could demand that they groom the tracks better, get rid of big jumps, and put the riders on much less powerful machines. We would almost certainly get closer racing. But we will have achieved closer racing by squashing the talent of the best riders. And that would cheapen the victories, having chosen luck over talent as the primary means by which our victors are decided. No thank you.
DonM
Posts
8819
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
Fantasy
8/29/2016 7:55am
Indy mxer wrote:
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much...
More food for thought. I was talking to my buddy Saturday at the race. He watches the GP's every week and was commenting on how much better the racing is. More passing and closer racing. Just more action in general.

I have no clue why that is. Any thoughts?
DonM wrote:
Shorter, tighter slower tracks.....Their track prep has been much better this year...our tracks are too long and too fast, it tends to separate riders. Lap time...
Shorter, tighter slower tracks.....Their track prep has been much better this year...our tracks are too long and too fast, it tends to separate riders. Lap time difference is usually about 15 to 30 seconds from GP's to US tracks...this last weekend was about a minute...Take a note on how much they will shorten GH and that will still be the longest track the GP's ride all year.
GP tracks aren't tighter, neither are they slower in general. Main difference I noticed at the US tracks I've been where these tons of woodchips in...
GP tracks aren't tighter, neither are they slower in general. Main difference I noticed at the US tracks I've been where these tons of woodchips in it. Never seen on a Euro track before. But I think they have their benefits though.
Obviously you haven't paid attention to RV and every US based rider that has raced on GP tracks saying that the GP tracks are slower, smaller and tighter or for that matter any GP rider that has come over....Wood chips have been replaced by adding sand at almost every track....the only track that had any type of wood chips was Ironman
8/29/2016 9:02am
DonM wrote:
Obviously you haven't paid attention to RV and every US based rider that has raced on GP tracks saying that the GP tracks are slower, smaller...
Obviously you haven't paid attention to RV and every US based rider that has raced on GP tracks saying that the GP tracks are slower, smaller and tighter or for that matter any GP rider that has come over....Wood chips have been replaced by adding sand at almost every track....the only track that had any type of wood chips was Ironman
What? Washougal felt like grandmas flowerbed under my feet. When I stepped on the track for the first time I was like "what the heck is that stuff" Grinning and it was so narrow that I sure thought of RVs post race speeches immediately. Whatever, I think its not that easy to explain. I have a feeling that you can see the GP riders do different things on the bike more often, trying different lines and so on. It doesn't look more intense but it is interesting to watch sometimes. Intensity is higher in the EMX classes imo.
But aside from all that I don't understand the whole debate. When Most of the best riders aren't at the line, them it is something different.
GangGreen
Posts
482
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Mechanicsburg, PA, USA
8/29/2016 9:33am Edited Date/Time 8/29/2016 10:38am
Indy mxer wrote:
I guess some guys didn't really read my original post. My main point was we need some tweeks and new ideas. We all love the sport...
I guess some guys didn't really read my original post. My main point was we need some tweeks and new ideas.
We all love the sport or we wouldn't be spending time on this forum.

I was there Saturday and the 450 race was boring as hell. The riders were mailing it in. Again, not bashing them because there wasn't much to race for. I'd like to see the races towards the end of the year have more relevance if possible.

I'm not saying we have to go to a NASCAR style chase. Just saying it should be discussed along with other ideas to improve the product.
And for the guys who say the chase didn't work, you're full of crap! I watch NASCAR every week and the racing has never been better. Did you watch yesterday? Guys were racing their asses off to get a spot in the chase. And crew chiefs were trying all kinds of different strategies.

It makes the all the races important. Playoffs work!

The issue of boring racing is multifold and cannot be blamed on one thing entirely. The "Tweeks and new Ideas" actually caused some of what we see today.......

• Heavy, over sized motorcycles - The AMA classes have always been 125cc and 250cc, we got rid of the Open Class in 1994, partly because of boring racing !!
• Many rider injuries – at least 10 top riders are hurt ( THIS probably should be # 1 )
• Timed Practice – I feel it causes a one-lined race track. How hard would it be to try morning qualifiers again early in the season, say Tennessee, and see if the track develops better?

Other forms of auto and motorcycle racing alter the displacement almost yearly in an effort to get “evenly matched equipment” between v-twins, triples and 4 cylinder engines. I’m not saying it's needed to equal out manufacturers like Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda and KTM, but rather to keep the four-strokes in check with the 125cc and 250cc AMA Professional Displacement Classes.

Heck, the Pirelli World Challenge auto series has drivers and teams add different amounts of weight based on the last weekend results to insure even competition between the various auto brands !!!! They’ll even set RPM restrictions on the faster cars. Instead of doing nothing, MX Sports and the AMA should proactively investigate what 4 stroke displacement works with the 125cc and 250cc National Class structure.

Doing away with the severely outdated “Double-Displacement” rule to make 125cc and 250cc dirt bikes competitive again MIGHT even influence diminishing turn-out at the local level and the high costs of racing.
8/29/2016 1:50pm Edited Date/Time 8/29/2016 1:52pm
Dont know whats the answer but the nats this year was a zzzzzzzz. 250 class was what saved it from being worse

Rutocross. LOL
downard254
Posts
4072
Joined
12/10/2012
Location
Bremen, OH, USA
8/29/2016 1:56pm Edited Date/Time 8/29/2016 1:56pm
Remember when guys needed to run the infamous Bridgestone M22 and M23. Haven't seen a track in years where these tires would be needed. Nuff said.Cool
Park Boys
Posts
3853
Joined
3/23/2012
Location
USA
8/29/2016 2:29pm
Bunch a squids complaining about ruts. In 2009 you squids were complaining that the tracks were to smooth. So what do you ninnes want? You complained then, you complain now and guess what. You will complain tomorrow.
The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI, USA
8/29/2016 2:38pm
Clutchy wrote:
More laps.
More cowbell
The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI, USA
8/29/2016 2:41pm
downard254 wrote:
Remember when guys needed to run the infamous Bridgestone M22 and M23. Haven't seen a track in years where these tires would be needed. Nuff said.Cool
Carlsbad hard pack

I also kept a fresh M22 on a spare rear wheel for a couple of years when I raced Friday night Ascot. It was twenty minutes max from my Hermosa Beach place. I'd out the wheel on before the first moto just as the marine layer was moving in.

TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
8/29/2016 3:15pm
Every sport ever invented could make everything way more exciting by doing the chase format, and it's still a stupid concept. In a sport where everyone competes against everyone every single week on a variety of tracks, the person with the most points at the end is the champion. Plain and simple.

Let me give you some direct equivalency examples here:

After 3 quarters of play in an NFL game, reset the scores to 0.

After 8 innings of an MLB game, reset the scores to 0.

After 85 minutes of a soccer game, reset the score to 0.

With 5 minutes left in an NBA game, reset the score to 0.

After 25 miles of a marathon, take the top 10 and reset them for the final 1 mile.

I could go on and on if you want me to. NASCAR even takes it a step further in stupidity and has it all come down to one race, every single time, no matter what. I could win all but one race in NASCAR, take 2nd in the other one, and LOSE the championship. How fucking stupid is that?
downard254
Posts
4072
Joined
12/10/2012
Location
Bremen, OH, USA
8/29/2016 4:06pm
downard254 wrote:
Remember when guys needed to run the infamous Bridgestone M22 and M23. Haven't seen a track in years where these tires would be needed. Nuff said.Cool
The Rock wrote:
Carlsbad hard pack I also kept a fresh M22 on a spare rear wheel for a couple of years when I raced Friday night Ascot. It...
Carlsbad hard pack

I also kept a fresh M22 on a spare rear wheel for a couple of years when I raced Friday night Ascot. It was twenty minutes max from my Hermosa Beach place. I'd out the wheel on before the first moto just as the marine layer was moving in.

Just aged myself did t I.
dkg
Posts
1885
Joined
9/12/2010
Location
Rancho Cucamonga, CA, USA
8/29/2016 6:25pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Every sport ever invented could make everything way more exciting by doing the chase format, and it's still a stupid concept. In a sport where everyone...
Every sport ever invented could make everything way more exciting by doing the chase format, and it's still a stupid concept. In a sport where everyone competes against everyone every single week on a variety of tracks, the person with the most points at the end is the champion. Plain and simple.

Let me give you some direct equivalency examples here:

After 3 quarters of play in an NFL game, reset the scores to 0.

After 8 innings of an MLB game, reset the scores to 0.

After 85 minutes of a soccer game, reset the score to 0.

With 5 minutes left in an NBA game, reset the score to 0.

After 25 miles of a marathon, take the top 10 and reset them for the final 1 mile.

I could go on and on if you want me to. NASCAR even takes it a step further in stupidity and has it all come down to one race, every single time, no matter what. I could win all but one race in NASCAR, take 2nd in the other one, and LOSE the championship. How fucking stupid is that?
How about get a job, set your own hours varying on a daily basis, take breaks whenever you want. But, "IT MAKES MY LIFE MORE EXCITING". Need some employees, I have a few I can send your way. Evil Evil Evil
vango
Posts
24
Joined
8/29/2016
Location
Houston, TX, USA
8/29/2016 7:08pm
first time, long time

Re reducing HP(cc's). All that will do is give high dollar teams an insurmountable advantage... remember 125 class?
Give em all the HP they want so no one can say "it's not fair because I don't have the resources"$ blah blah.
Now no one is out horse powered.. So that is off the table.
Rick Mears once said.. Take away aerodynamics, give them 1000 HP and turn em loose.
An observation.. As a enthusiast in early 70s, I experienced the suspension revolution. Every year LTR improved.
But along with that, the whoops got bigger, the braking bumps got bigger, the jumps got bigger. You get the idea.
Proposition: reduce wheel travel to 10 inches. See what happens. If it doesn't work reduce it some more until moral improves.
All I want is a good race, and not watch ambulances(helicopters)racing each other to the hospital.

AND I do have a Maico itch as well as a back scratching Bultaco itch.
Cheers
vango
Posts
24
Joined
8/29/2016
Location
Houston, TX, USA
8/29/2016 7:38pm
And while I'm at it
No air shocks
No telemetry
No GPS
No spotters/radio. Pit board only
Onlyreal variable is electronics
Any nerd can modify electronics, ie Power Commander and such....

Oh.. and a claiming rule

let the fun begin

ask Rodger
FlaNard
Posts
3620
Joined
10/13/2009
Location
Layton, UT, USA
8/29/2016 8:03pm
You're at the last round. Vegas is usually boring too. The titles are almost always decided early. Always been that way. And fuck any chase bullshit. You're just causing other rounds to be just riding around instead of yours.

Post a reply to: Lucas Oil Nationals need some work.......

The Latest