Is there a market for custom built 2 stroke MX bikes?

newmann
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newmann 8/12/2016 8:09am
8/12/2016 8:09am
FCTRY wrote:
For a fully built, like-new build, I think you might find that there's not enough margin for you at the price points you're shooting for. You'll...
For a fully built, like-new build, I think you might find that there's not enough margin for you at the price points you're shooting for. You'll have to find donor bikes at rock bottom prices, which is a limited market (probably enough, but limited nonetheless, also consider the time spent finding the bikes, haggling, and procuring them). Business owners of this type (of which I am one), often forget that your hours in a project have to include talking to the customer, taking pictures, updating your website, ordering parts, making noise on forums so people know you exist, etc, etc. Theres also tons of hidden costs, shipping on your parts, taxes, tools, consumables (shop rags, oils, lubes, etc). So if you've done the math at X dollars in cost + Y hours = Retail price, you've almost certainly forgotten some things. There's also the potential for failed projects you will have to eat and start over, if a donor bike gets torn down and turns out to have a bent frame and a roached transmission that you couldn't see during inspection, you will be faced with eating that cost altogether (say goodbye to all your profit from that customer). You might find at that if you've planned on 2k in profit, that you're actually making 1k at the end of the day, which may not be enough for the hours involved.

For reference, I recently bought a fully disassembled 2014 125sx with a tranny issue for $1100 and one of my knives (I'm a knife maker). Screaming deal right? I found a replacement transmission for $150 on ebay, also a screaming deal compared to buying new parts. By the time I did plastic, graphics, a drivetrain, a piston, bars/grips, and a shifter, I was into it for $2400, with all things being purchased at their lowest possible prices. I sold the bike for $4000, which sounds great, but there were numerous hours put into finding good deals on the parts and doing all the work. That was just to rebuild a 30 hour bike to stockish condition. If I had done tires, rims, foot pegs, levers, needed a pipe, and so on, the margin in that bike would have dropped well below 1k, and it's hard to imagine finding a better deal on a starting point with any regularity.
Beat me by 1 minute....
FCTRY
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FCTRY 8/12/2016 9:01am
8/12/2016 9:01am
newmann wrote:
Beat me by 1 minute....
Consenting voices of reason on Vital? Impossible.
Paul333
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Paul333 8/12/2016 10:01am
8/12/2016 10:01am
racinstation wrote:
Just a feeler question........If you could build to order a custom 2 stroke dirt bike would you? We are playing around with the idea of doing...
Just a feeler question........If you could build to order a custom 2 stroke dirt bike would you? We are playing around with the idea of doing some custom two stroke bikes (mainly Rms and Yzs). I would imaging they would be in the $6000 to $7000 range when finished for premium bikes with powder coated frames refurbished engines, custom body parts etc. I just don't know if guys that are into that sort of thing are doing it themselves or if there are customers out there who want to mark off a checklist and pick the bike up ready to rip? Keep input positive and constructive.
Considering how many people are doing this themselves I would say there is a big market for it.

For every guy who does it themselves there are most likely a hundred like myself who want to but don't have the facilities, tools, time, knowledge, etc to start a project like this. Simply buying what you want from a trusted company who won't scam you would be a huge benefit.
racinstation 8/12/2016 10:15am
8/12/2016 10:15am
OK. All input is being appreciated and absorbed.

Now, here is another question........if you were to lay down your hard earned cash for said bike, WHAT WOULD THAT BIKE BE? I am looking for year/make/model/layout type answers like 2005 Carmichael replica RM250, 2005 Chad Reed Replica YZ250, 2003 RM125, etc etc.

Don't paint things into a corner on price. I said $7000 just for a reference point on an earlier post. Under certain conditions, these bikes could range from $4,000 to $20,000. I am just looking to see what people want and if they would be interested in purchasing.

The Shop

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newmann
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newmann 8/12/2016 10:59am
8/12/2016 10:59am
Just pointing out how little money there is to be made without the right customer. Right customer? That upper end $20,000.00 number you speak of? Who wouldn't want Langhams RM??? Drool worthy stuff right here.

PRM31
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PRM31 8/12/2016 11:21am
8/12/2016 11:21am
I've just about finished building a clapped out 2005 RM125 into a reasonably nice bike. I paid $1500 for the bike. Probably more than I should have in hindsight. I did not do an amazing rebuild like you often see here, but it's nice. It ended up costing quite a bit more than anticipated. I have not added up the receipts and don't really want to. $960 engine, $1100 suspension, $225 powder coat frame, new rims and spokes, all new plastic, graphics kit, new radiators, new front tire, all new bearings, brake pads, brake lines, handlebars, clutch perch, seat cover, filter, jets, reeds, and many small items such as bolts, O-rings or whatever. I now have a pretty expensive RM125. But I love it and there is no new bike I'd rather have. There are plenty who would like a rebuilt bike, how many will pay you to do the work is the question and my gut feeling is it's fairly small. But I say do it. People are buying $8k+ four strokes every day, if a restored classic two stroke was a little less there may be a market.
KTMShane699
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KTMShane699 8/12/2016 11:22am
8/12/2016 11:22am
racinstation wrote:
OK. All input is being appreciated and absorbed. Now, here is another question........if you were to lay down your hard earned cash for said bike, WHAT...
OK. All input is being appreciated and absorbed.

Now, here is another question........if you were to lay down your hard earned cash for said bike, WHAT WOULD THAT BIKE BE? I am looking for year/make/model/layout type answers like 2005 Carmichael replica RM250, 2005 Chad Reed Replica YZ250, 2003 RM125, etc etc.

Don't paint things into a corner on price. I said $7000 just for a reference point on an earlier post. Under certain conditions, these bikes could range from $4,000 to $20,000. I am just looking to see what people want and if they would be interested in purchasing.
What people want and what people are willing to pay are usually on opposite ends of the spectrum. There are people out there who want what they want, and are willing to pay for it. Those people are few and far between though. Take the fact that there's few of those people and there's multiple "builders" and it results in no a lot of work.

There have been some amazing builds here on this site, and for a lot of people part of the fun is the build themselves. I'd say take half of the amazing bikes out there and divide it by at least two since those are the guys doing it themselves.

You ask a broad question in what bike someone would want for their hard earned cash. Personally, I wouldn't want a replica for that kind of money. Instead I would want something that was unique to me.

In this industry, it seems like everyone is looking for a "deal." Finding the people willing to pay will be your biggest battle. If you decide to pursue this, I hope it works out well. It seems the ones that have the most business are the ones with a great race pedigree that do motor work as well (someone such as a Chad Watts), or the ones that have some niche to offer in terms of coatings or something similar that nobody else knows about or can get done.

Best of luck.
Premix
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Premix 8/12/2016 11:43am
8/12/2016 11:43am
In my experience, no. Unless you're cutting corners or buying really good used bikes that don't need totally redone. But what's the fun in that?

My two examples of where I lost a total of 4700. But the fun I had and the time I killed during winter was worth it...I think....

06 KX250, Bought for 2000, put 3200 into it (and it was in super good shape when I bought it with orginal graphics, seat cover and brake pads), Sold for 4000



09 Yz250. Bought for 3500. Put 3000 into it. Sold for 4500.



Kx125rider 8/12/2016 11:51am
8/12/2016 11:51am
That bike would be an 04 kx250 for me.
mx317
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mx317 8/12/2016 12:04pm
8/12/2016 12:04pm
My opinion is that there is not a market for a $7000 rebuilt 250 two-stroke when you can buy a new one for not much more. Maybe if you already have a core bike, maybe.
TailSoHard
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TailSoHard 8/12/2016 12:57pm
8/12/2016 12:57pm
I think one of the area where you'll run into issues is the "custom" part. It's really tough for a shop/dealer to get all the parts you need at a price where you can still make money on them if you're not a giant parts warehouse with 15-20 of each exhaust in stock. People these days can go online and buy damn near anything at about $5 above dealer cost, so unless you're moving a lot of inventory you can probably plan on making next to nothing on the parts.

A better route might be to just go around re-furbishing bikes to their OEM specs. Personally, I'd buy an all-stock bike before one that has a bunch of aftermarket stuff all over it. If you could just focus on one or two particular bikes and spent all your time purchasing OEM parts (in larger quantities and cheaper than aftermarket), you might find that people would be a little more interested. I'd just focus on finding '02 or newer YZ 125's and 250's and get a revolving inventory of top ends that you could just keep sending out to get re-plated and put on the next one to come in. Replace the plastic/graphics (again, use OEM graphics and avoid slapping stickers all over the place to save money...) on all of them, redo all the bearings, service the suspension, new tires, slap on an OEM pipe and silencer that you can find for dirt cheap on Ebay and sell them for $4000. Plus, you could then just sell all the fancy parts that you take OFF the donor bikes for even more money than you'd make by putting those same parts ON a bike. Or save them for some "specialty" builds. Your customers would then be left with a "brand-new" OEM YZ that's been completely refurbished and leaves them with a blank canvas to do their own build with.

I'd pay more for an OEM-looking bike that's been completely gone through and serviced than a "sick-looking completely-built tricked out 2 smoker, bro!" Mostly because when I see a KX250 with Monster Energy graphics, factory pipe, fat bars, powder-coated wheels, power-coated frame, etc... I think to myself "well that's all well and good, but how do I know they did all that stuff properly? What if he didn't torque his sprocket bolts correctly? What if he didn't true his wheels properly?" All that stuff is nice to have on a bike if the mechanic knows what he's doing... If it's a teenager's first bike and he just wanted black wheels, I'm going to assume it's been clapped out... Obviously if you're running a business you don't have to worry about that, but still. I think an OEM bike would draw more attention than a "replica" build. Every single used 2-stroke on craigslist has "sick" graphics on it with some aftermarket parts. But the ones that get the most attention are minty OEM bikes that haven't had anything done to them. THAT would your money-maker in this industry. Once you start making money and have a decent system in place, then you can branch out and start offering people "custom" builds.

Shit, maybe I should start doing this...

Skerby
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Skerby 8/12/2016 2:14pm
8/12/2016 2:14pm
racinstation wrote:
Beta is off road only, why?
kzizok wrote:
Because Beta two strokes can/are built to order. So, evidently there is a market for it
racinstation wrote:
You are correct, I forgot about that. What I am looking at would be 2004-2008 RMs or 2005-current YZs that a guy could pick motor, wheels...
You are correct, I forgot about that. What I am looking at would be 2004-2008 RMs or 2005-current YZs that a guy could pick motor, wheels, graphics, accessories etc and get exactly what they want but don't necessarily have the time, desire, or ability to do the build themselves.
I would be interested! If i got bigger paychecks lol.
sgrimmxdad 8/12/2016 2:27pm
8/12/2016 2:27pm
I have had 3 bikes built for my son over the last few years. I don't see how you can do it for $7000 and be anywhere near the quality of a fresh YZ or KTM....

I built a supermini that I had more than 7k in, just saying.....

chump6784
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chump6784 8/12/2016 2:53pm
8/12/2016 2:53pm
TailSoHard wrote:
I think one of the area where you'll run into issues is the "custom" part. It's really tough for a shop/dealer to get all the parts...
I think one of the area where you'll run into issues is the "custom" part. It's really tough for a shop/dealer to get all the parts you need at a price where you can still make money on them if you're not a giant parts warehouse with 15-20 of each exhaust in stock. People these days can go online and buy damn near anything at about $5 above dealer cost, so unless you're moving a lot of inventory you can probably plan on making next to nothing on the parts.

A better route might be to just go around re-furbishing bikes to their OEM specs. Personally, I'd buy an all-stock bike before one that has a bunch of aftermarket stuff all over it. If you could just focus on one or two particular bikes and spent all your time purchasing OEM parts (in larger quantities and cheaper than aftermarket), you might find that people would be a little more interested. I'd just focus on finding '02 or newer YZ 125's and 250's and get a revolving inventory of top ends that you could just keep sending out to get re-plated and put on the next one to come in. Replace the plastic/graphics (again, use OEM graphics and avoid slapping stickers all over the place to save money...) on all of them, redo all the bearings, service the suspension, new tires, slap on an OEM pipe and silencer that you can find for dirt cheap on Ebay and sell them for $4000. Plus, you could then just sell all the fancy parts that you take OFF the donor bikes for even more money than you'd make by putting those same parts ON a bike. Or save them for some "specialty" builds. Your customers would then be left with a "brand-new" OEM YZ that's been completely refurbished and leaves them with a blank canvas to do their own build with.

I'd pay more for an OEM-looking bike that's been completely gone through and serviced than a "sick-looking completely-built tricked out 2 smoker, bro!" Mostly because when I see a KX250 with Monster Energy graphics, factory pipe, fat bars, powder-coated wheels, power-coated frame, etc... I think to myself "well that's all well and good, but how do I know they did all that stuff properly? What if he didn't torque his sprocket bolts correctly? What if he didn't true his wheels properly?" All that stuff is nice to have on a bike if the mechanic knows what he's doing... If it's a teenager's first bike and he just wanted black wheels, I'm going to assume it's been clapped out... Obviously if you're running a business you don't have to worry about that, but still. I think an OEM bike would draw more attention than a "replica" build. Every single used 2-stroke on craigslist has "sick" graphics on it with some aftermarket parts. But the ones that get the most attention are minty OEM bikes that haven't had anything done to them. THAT would your money-maker in this industry. Once you start making money and have a decent system in place, then you can branch out and start offering people "custom" builds.

Shit, maybe I should start doing this...

That's not a bad idea. I recently picked up a 2010 yz250 that was still on the original tyres and not a mark on it. For the same money there were newer bikes with nearly every aftermarket bolt on available but I went for the stocker knowing it was unmolested
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 8/12/2016 3:01pm
8/12/2016 3:01pm
If you go to Glamis over Thanksgiving week and see what is running around in the desert. Miles and miles of million dollar motor homes, endless $100,000 desert rides, you will realize there is a market for anything FAST and cool
racinstation 8/12/2016 6:09pm
8/12/2016 6:09pm
sgrimmxdad wrote:
I have had 3 bikes built for my son over the last few years. I don't see how you can do it for $7000 and be...
I have had 3 bikes built for my son over the last few years. I don't see how you can do it for $7000 and be anywhere near the quality of a fresh YZ or KTM....

I built a supermini that I had more than 7k in, just saying.....

The 7k was just a rough number as stated previously. What I am feeling out are guys (like me) that would rather buy an RM250 for $2500 and put $4000.00 into it and have exactly what they want, than to buy a new KTM or Husky. I have much respect for KTM for ripping it up in this market, but I can't put on that orange sheepskin and join the flock. I know the bikes are great. I work on them almost every day, but I think there are a few die hard Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki guys out there that are true to the brand.

Sr_Vet_Rider 8/12/2016 6:53pm
8/12/2016 6:53pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2016 6:57pm
newmann wrote:
Just pointing out how little money there is to be made without the right customer. Right customer? That upper end $20,000.00 number you speak of? Who...
Just pointing out how little money there is to be made without the right customer. Right customer? That upper end $20,000.00 number you speak of? Who wouldn't want Langhams RM??? Drool worthy stuff right here.

Newmann, I've seen some of the bikes you've built and I will take that as a HUGE compliment. I had no idea I would take it this far, but you know how it goes... Wink It will be featured in the October issue of MXA, which was never my intent.
I built it to keep me busy, while recovering from a broken back last year, but it might be for sale soon, if I end up having to get surgery on my neck. If I can't ride it, there's no need to keep it. Sad I'm preparing to lose my ass..... Tongue

To the OP's original question- as a few guys have already mentioned, I don't see it as being very profitable for you, when the dust settles. I know how much time I spent on this one, not to mention the amount of money. I was lucky to start with a very low hour bike, but that would be one of your biggest hurdles is finding low hour bikes at a descent price.

Just for the fun of it, let's say I wanted you to build this bike for me, what would you charge me ? I have well over100 hrs into it, I bought the bike for $3500 with the A-Kit and LECTRON carb, other than that everything else I added and its all brand new parts. I've added up the parts, what do you think that $$ came to ? I realize that not everyone would take it to this extreme, but I'm just curious what your estimate would be.

Here's a pic of the other side. Plenty more in my bike check for parts reference.

racinstation 8/12/2016 7:21pm
8/12/2016 7:21pm
langhammx: Ill bite. For starters----this is probably my favorite build that I have seen on this forum. Keep in mind there are 220ish pages of Kick Ass Two Strokes on here so you did a fine job!

Clean-low hours-RM250 $3000.00
A kit suspension $6500.00
Wheels $1000.00
Engine work and coatings $1000.00
Plastic and graphics $350.00
Chain and sprockets $200.00
Pipe and Silencer $400.00
Tank $600.00 with shipping
Bars/Seat/Grips $400.00
Brake lines/cables etc $350.00
Carburetor $250.00
Levers/grips $100.00
Shift/brake pedals $100.00
Powder coating on frame $250.00
Clutch and ignition covers $250.00

So, lets say $14,750 in parts and about a zillion hours of labor.

The tough part on this bike is the suspension. It is hard to find and there are not too many guys that could use or appreciate this.

If you had stock suspension that was re-valved and coated it would knock about $5000.00 off the price, depending on what you got the suspension for. I have seen it anywhere from $2500 to $8000.00 in my looking.

I would say if someone commissioned me to build this bike it would be in the $12K range without the suspension. There are very few that would appreciate it.........as I am sure you know better than most.

Pit Row

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racinstation 8/12/2016 7:23pm
8/12/2016 7:23pm
Just for clarification, I saw you posted the bike with carb and A Kit suspension cost you $3500.00. But the chances of finding that again are slim.
CrGuy2T
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CrGuy2T 8/12/2016 7:37pm
8/12/2016 7:37pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2016 7:47pm
So if you value that bike at say 14750.00 what do you think it would sell for on the market? I have a pretty good guess at what someone would actually pay for it? No way anyone would pay you even close to 12k to build that bike without the suspension or even with it. Not to be a spoiler but honestly there is no money in building any sort of a custom 2 stroke unless it's a 1 off build that someone requests. Your better off flipping bikes on Craigslist if your looking for profit. I've lost my fair share of money on so called "custom" 2 strokes id hate to figure in the labor.
racinstation 8/12/2016 7:44pm
8/12/2016 7:44pm
I don't know what someone would pay. That is what this thread is investigating. I bet you can tell me what you would pay.

CrGuy2T
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CrGuy2T 8/12/2016 7:52pm
8/12/2016 7:52pm
In all fairness Shaun is a friend of mine so I'd rather not put an actual number on his bike. Just trying to help you out from a disastrous situation. I'd go on Craigslist and just flip bikes. Sell off the high end parts seperate. There's lots of guys that do that on here it's quite profitable actually.
racinstation 8/12/2016 8:00pm
8/12/2016 8:00pm
Got it. I am just checking the pulse on this. I hope to not enter into a bad business situation. I learned a long time ago where the money was made. Small stuff....spark plugs 30 to 100 percent margins. I used to be a Yamaha/Suzuki/Arctic Cat dealer and learned real quick that $150.00 profit on a $10,000 unit was not a good thing, when you could make that same profit on a pair of $400.00 MX boots. I know there are guys that would pay Shaun $15K for that bike, but for the average Joe who is racing on the weekend????????? He could buy a good clean used 450 for $3000.00 and a truck for $4500.00 and go racing.
Sr_Vet_Rider 8/12/2016 8:01pm
8/12/2016 8:01pm
racinstation wrote:
langhammx: Ill bite. For starters----this is probably my favorite build that I have seen on this forum. Keep in mind there are 220ish pages of Kick...
langhammx: Ill bite. For starters----this is probably my favorite build that I have seen on this forum. Keep in mind there are 220ish pages of Kick Ass Two Strokes on here so you did a fine job!

Clean-low hours-RM250 $3000.00
A kit suspension $6500.00
Wheels $1000.00
Engine work and coatings $1000.00
Plastic and graphics $350.00
Chain and sprockets $200.00
Pipe and Silencer $400.00
Tank $600.00 with shipping
Bars/Seat/Grips $400.00
Brake lines/cables etc $350.00
Carburetor $250.00
Levers/grips $100.00
Shift/brake pedals $100.00
Powder coating on frame $250.00
Clutch and ignition covers $250.00

So, lets say $14,750 in parts and about a zillion hours of labor.

The tough part on this bike is the suspension. It is hard to find and there are not too many guys that could use or appreciate this.

If you had stock suspension that was re-valved and coated it would knock about $5000.00 off the price, depending on what you got the suspension for. I have seen it anywhere from $2500 to $8000.00 in my looking.

I would say if someone commissioned me to build this bike it would be in the $12K range without the suspension. There are very few that would appreciate it.........as I am sure you know better than most.
Not bad...
I know you just kinda randomly guessed at pricing and parts on the bike, but here's a few more parts you may have overlooked-

A-Kit Triple clamps w/ '16 fender/ #plate mounting (although you could've included them in your suspension price)
Raptor Ti pegs
Complete bike Titanium bolt kit
Vortex ignition
Works Connection parts (skid plate, engine guard, frame guards, misc bling)
Carbon chain guide

Parts that could be included in the engine price-
Vforce reeds
Boyesen HiFlow water pump
CV4 silicone hose kit


* also I added a VHM head recently, (after the pics were taken) Cool

At the end of the day, there's no way in hell im going to ever be able to sell it for the amount of money I have into it, (without including my labor) but then again, I never planned on selling it and I'm too anal to make any money working on dirt bikes anyways. Tongue I've made a habit of building badass toys that I knew when I started them, that I'd never see the $$ back again, but I have a lot of fun building them and usually I use the crap out of them, before I get rid of them. Sad
CrGuy2T
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CrGuy2T 8/12/2016 8:23pm
8/12/2016 8:23pm
What's should this be worth. Factory satellite race bike. Every bolt is titanium, complete restore everything new, hrc transmission, Showa A kit, all the carbon fiber, fram guards all welded in? This is mine I'm just curious what you value a customer would pay. Atleast 250 hours labor.


Sr_Vet_Rider 8/12/2016 8:33pm
8/12/2016 8:33pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2016 8:34pm
CrGuy2T wrote:
What's should this be worth. Factory satellite race bike. Every bolt is titanium, complete restore everything new, hrc transmission, Showa A kit, all the carbon fiber...
What's should this be worth. Factory satellite race bike. Every bolt is titanium, complete restore everything new, hrc transmission, Showa A kit, all the carbon fiber, fram guards all welded in? This is mine I'm just curious what you value a customer would pay. Atleast 250 hours labor.


I'll give you $10.00 for the blue crate that's holding up your $30K bike. Laughing Laughing Tongue

Edit- I mean $50K bike.
The Source 8/12/2016 8:41pm
8/12/2016 8:41pm
Kx125rider wrote:
To be completely honest if I were going to build a $7000 two stroke I'd like to build it myself.
Exactly
CrGuy2T
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CrGuy2T 8/12/2016 8:48pm
8/12/2016 8:48pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2016 8:54pm
Sr_Vet_Rider wrote:
I'll give you $10.00 for the blue crate that's holding up your $30K bike. Laughing Laughing Tongue

Edit- I mean $50K bike.
Hey, I like the stands. A they are free, B they don't scratch paint or aluminum, and C you can spin the bikes around on them. But all honsestly I put the bike for sale at one in time for 9k just to see. Actuall got a few bites but mostly people were wanting it for 6500-7500 I had one player for full price but all the way in Germany. I doubt I would have been able to let it go at the end of the day. I did test waters though. I sold this bike below for 2k without the A kit. It had brand new crank Honda, all new Honda gears, 134cc 97 cyl conversion, lots of other stuff. Took a bloods bath but had a blast.


roninho
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roninho 8/13/2016 4:31am
8/13/2016 4:31am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2016 4:35am
imo the hard part is that you are customizing. Customization means lots of hours for every bike= Costly. Not sure if there is so much demand for that. You quickly reach a price point where you are comparable to new bikes.

Without knowing your design experience&background: Why dont you go the other way around: Use your design qualities to come up with a bike that is:
- New
- standardized
- handmade

Create your own standard frame and use a 125cc engine from beta or gas gas, with some tuning for mx. Key is that its standardized.

Differentiate by offering a new bike that is either substantially lower priced OR has much more add ons then a 2017 Ktm or husky 125.

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