Oh yes he did - KR air forks

Derpin' DJ
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7/10/2016 12:46am Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 12:50am
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his...
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his ass off and makes no excuses.
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle.
-Says forks were getting hard during the moto
-They change something
-Ken is able to hang with Tomac the whole 2nd moto instead of getting dropped, puts 1m10s on 3rd

Seems to me like his "excuse" had some meat to it.

7/10/2016 1:30am
Think it's pretty unfair to say that Kenny's just making excuses, he's been so good this year that it is absolutely believable that he wasn't all that comfortable with his bike, and to be honest he closed the gap significantly in the second moto after they made a change, which kind of proves his point. Not to mention after the second moto he said that Eli and the Kawi team were on it.

If Tomac keeps beating him and he keeps blaming the bike I'd say he'd definitely be making excuses, but as of right now if the guy who was pretty much perfect up until this point says something wasn't right, I think you gotta believe him.
kiwifan
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7/10/2016 1:45am
The two posts above sum up my feelings too
7/10/2016 3:00am
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his...
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his ass off and makes no excuses.
Derpin' DJ wrote:
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle. -Says forks were getting hard during the moto -They change something -Ken is able to...
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle.
-Says forks were getting hard during the moto
-They change something
-Ken is able to hang with Tomac the whole 2nd moto instead of getting dropped, puts 1m10s on 3rd

Seems to me like his "excuse" had some meat to it.

exactly

The Shop

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7/10/2016 3:15am
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his...
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his ass off and makes no excuses.
Derpin' DJ wrote:
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle. -Says forks were getting hard during the moto -They change something -Ken is able to...
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle.
-Says forks were getting hard during the moto
-They change something
-Ken is able to hang with Tomac the whole 2nd moto instead of getting dropped, puts 1m10s on 3rd

Seems to me like his "excuse" had some meat to it.

Exactly!
Steve125
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7/10/2016 3:17am Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 3:19am
Southwick is definitely unique. The deep sandy areas get big, rolling whoops that you'd need to slow down the rebound for.
The areas that get the hard base exposed develop closely spaced stutter bumps like a hard pack track needing much quicker rebound settings.
The difference between Tomac's and Roczen's bikes was that Tomac's fork wasn't packing in the stutter bumps, and the inherently stable Kawasaki chassis was staying straight through the rough stuff...partly because Tomac was a beast and made that bike go where he wanted no matter what.
It looked to me that Roczens fork was packing and riding lower in the travel, steepening the head angle causing the bike to go into head shake when it hit the rough stuff entering turns. I actually thought the bike looked terrible at the start of the 2nd moto too. Maybe the pressure went up as temps rose and it smoothed out, but they didn't show enough of him during the race for me to notice.
So my worthless, groggy, 6am Sunday morning opinion is it was a setup issue compounded by the already quick Suzuki chassis.
Jrewing
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7/10/2016 4:08am
Bruneval wrote:
Just bashed them hard: "got worse and worse as Moto went on".
Air forks nightmare are the hybrid conditions you described in Southwick. Spring fork would have been the fork to be on. Imagine if it was a hot day too... Would have been worse again
Steve125
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7/10/2016 5:39am Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 5:42am
Bruneval wrote:
Just bashed them hard: "got worse and worse as Moto went on".
Jrewing wrote:
Air forks nightmare are the hybrid conditions you described in Southwick. Spring fork would have been the fork to be on. Imagine if it was a...
Air forks nightmare are the hybrid conditions you described in Southwick. Spring fork would have been the fork to be on. Imagine if it was a hot day too... Would have been worse again
The part I don't understand is how do you set dampening rates when your Air-Spring rate is changing as the fork temp rises?.. and nitrogen isn't the cure all. nitrogen still builds pressure, but since it has less moisture content it is a bit more stable than air.
I know that i notice a click here or there.. Sometimes to a point of it becoming unridable to me after 1 click faster or slower.
When you have to put (Jane Fonda) fork warmers on your forks to keep them consistent.. ridiculous. I'll take a spring please.


kb
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7/10/2016 6:18am
kiwifan wrote:
The two posts above sum up my feelings too
Same here- He clearly had to check up towards the end of the 1st moto,
He didn't look comfortable. 2nd moto was a different story. 2 awesome motos-
hillbilly
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7/10/2016 6:20am
MXD wrote:
I'm sure they could design a blow off valve that locks closed while the fork is traveling through the stroke and only releases when the fork...
I'm sure they could design a blow off valve that locks closed while the fork is traveling through the stroke and only releases when the fork is completely unloaded.
ML512 wrote:
There's been attempts... Nothing I've seen that's made it to real world testing...
Berm wrote:
A manual switch/cable to release pressure that the rider only hits when he goes over a triple (like pulling a tear-off)? Where do you have to...
A manual switch/cable to release pressure that the rider only hits when he goes over a triple (like pulling a tear-off)? Where do you have to bleed the pressure from? If its the top of the fork, that would be possible. Bottom left would also be okay and you could follow the brake line. Bottom right would not be as great.
Why not do like Eli and ride with the front wheel in the air
ML512
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Fantasy
7/10/2016 6:59am
Yeah that's what I was thinking and yeah it's only going to be the air spring length lighter than the full steel SFF which is still...
Yeah that's what I was thinking and yeah it's only going to be the air spring length lighter than the full steel SFF which is still plenty of dollars elsewhere saved. Air chamber at the top and steel at the bottom. The big benefit is perhaps the benefits of both systems with better feel and lighter weight. That Guzzi site is claiming the best bump absorption and progressive rate action available. SFF/HYBRID. Going to need longer fork legs for the decals Laughing Will be interesting what transpires.
The full length SFF Spring is only in one side, where the hybrid is using a normal length spring... So one in each side puts you right back at a normal fork. I'm also not fully awake this morning, apologies if I miss-read.
Beast666
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7/10/2016 7:07am
Derpin' DJ wrote:
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle. -Says forks were getting hard during the moto -They change something -Ken is able to...
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle.
-Says forks were getting hard during the moto
-They change something
-Ken is able to hang with Tomac the whole 2nd moto instead of getting dropped, puts 1m10s on 3rd

Seems to me like his "excuse" had some meat to it.

On the other hand KR went inside to rest up for moto 2 then gets told that they found the problem with the fork settings and adjusted them. KR goes out has a better result.

In reality the suspension tech just checked the settings and made no changes. Moto is very mental by nature and simply suggesting that a change was made can put a rider at ease and make them confident about the setup of the bike.

I can see KR as a rider that can lose his confidence easily.
yak651
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Fantasy
7/10/2016 7:20am
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his...
I predicted earlier that once Tomac gets up to speed on the Kawi, Roczen will start having "setup issues" again. Gotta love how Tomac works his ass off and makes no excuses.
Derpin' DJ wrote:
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle. -Says forks were getting hard during the moto -They change something -Ken is able to...
-1st moto, gets dropped by Tomac, barely gaps Musquin and Bogle.
-Says forks were getting hard during the moto
-They change something
-Ken is able to hang with Tomac the whole 2nd moto instead of getting dropped, puts 1m10s on 3rd

Seems to me like his "excuse" had some meat to it.

2nd moto Eli goes down gets back up and passes him again, pretty sure his lead would've been bigger without that happening...
karsmakers
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7/10/2016 7:43am
"My forks were moving up and down over the bumps and it was really bothering me" ....just a joke. Truth is that these super fast guys couldn't go that balls out if they didn't feel confident with their set up. So there is a little truth and a little whining in everything
Jimmy_Sloan
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7/10/2016 8:43am
yak651 wrote:
2nd moto Eli goes down gets back up and passes him again, pretty sure his lead would've been bigger without that happening...
This. Eli's lead would have been bigger. I think the KR fans thought Roczen had Southwick in the bag. This is a possible game changer for both Eli and Roczen, though unless something big happens, Kenny has the title.
BAMX
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7/10/2016 9:15am Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 9:16am
ML512 wrote:
You nailed it in your end, more of a setting problem, but he acted and made it come across like more of a component problem. I...
You nailed it in your end, more of a setting problem, but he acted and made it come across like more of a component problem. I also heard today that he did an interview with a German magazine where he said he was forced into using that stuff, I haven't seen the interview for myself, but if that's the case then that part isn't true.
He could have just said that as the moto went on their settings developed a balance problem which hadn't shown up in practice. Then, he could have added that he has a great team and that they would get him better for the second moto. IMO, that is how a professional would have handled it. The way he explained the issue reflected as poorly on him as it did the forks.
Uncle_Eddie
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7/10/2016 10:05am Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 10:07am
Eli was on another planet yesterday. The way he was riding reminded me of how RV and RC used to attack Southwick. Throttle pinned, bike bouncing everywhere, steering with the back tire, just flat out hauling the mail!! Im not sure that KR could have stayed with him even with a perfect bike set up
7/10/2016 10:11am
Bruneval wrote:
Just bashed them hard: "got worse and worse as Moto went on".
Air forks are a fad like they were 20 years ago. Air pressure increases as the internal temperature rise. And air pressure decreases as seals leak. Maybe those two issues can be solved with a cooling system and better materials, but racers hate to loose because of a defective component and manufacturers have a habitat of pushing bad designs. But that's what racing is all about - to find the best balance of new vs proven designs.
RG1
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7/10/2016 11:11am Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 11:22am
Bruce372 wrote:
There is no point trying to use reason and logic mate, many people want air forks to fail since they can't get past the dogma of...
There is no point trying to use reason and logic mate, many people want air forks to fail since they can't get past the dogma of the only solution to a problem they can think of.
kiwifan wrote:
this.....if there was something wrong with his forks then why should he not say there was...why the heck cant he? honestly, the vital police really think...
this.....if there was something wrong with his forks then why should he not say there was...why the heck cant he?

honestly, the vital police really think they would make great rider/team managers

KR had a bad day, he had trouble with his forks, thats why he didnt win, lets move on now eh?
brimx153 wrote:
sorry i call bull on that . he had a good day he went 2 ,2 . its not like he got beat by a crap...
sorry i call bull on that . he had a good day he went 2 ,2 . its not like he got beat by a crap rider . Tomac was just riding great today .
Tomac was great, as he always is at tracks like Southwick, BUT Kenny obviously had a fork issue in the first moto. He's dominated every moto of the season, last week he put 30 seconds on Tomac in both motos, and put over a minute on Musquin in both. This week, Tomac put 30 on him in the first moto and Musquin was only a couple of seconds behind him. If he hadn't said anything a lot of people would be saying what happened? He told us. He had a fork issue, why should he not say that he had a fork issue?

On Southwick in general, it doesn't really surprise me that Tomac won. We've seen time and time again that Tomac is incredibly fast on tracks like this where there are big, sweeping, bermed turns. He's won at Southwick before, we saw it at Kegums. But we've seen time and time again that Tomac can put in performances like that and then be a shadow of that the week after. Roczen won't be too worried about Southwick, he has 11 moto wins to Tomac's 2 and a healthy points lead. He's in great shape
Jimmy_Sloan
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7/10/2016 11:17am
RG1 wrote:
Tomac was great, as he always is at tracks like Southwick, BUT Kenny obviously had a fork issue in the first moto. He's dominated every moto...
Tomac was great, as he always is at tracks like Southwick, BUT Kenny obviously had a fork issue in the first moto. He's dominated every moto of the season, last week he put 30 seconds on Tomac in both motos, and put over a minute on Musquin in both. This week, Tomac put 30 on him in the first moto and Musquin was only a couple of seconds behind him. If he hadn't said anything a lot of people would be saying what happened? He told us. He had a fork issue, why should he not say that he had a fork issue?

On Southwick in general, it doesn't really surprise me that Tomac won. We've seen time and time again that Tomac is incredibly fast on tracks like this where there are big, sweeping, bermed turns. He's won at Southwick before, we saw it at Kegums. But we've seen time and time again that Tomac can put in performances like that and then be a shadow of that the week after. Roczen won't be too worried about Southwick, he has 11 moto wins to Tomac's 2 and a healthy points lead. He's in great shape
Because it's an excuse.
matze
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7/10/2016 11:44am
Obviously, tomac was the better rider and had the perfect set up yesterday. Simple as that. He was faster, just like roczen the other 12 motos. Kr obviously improved his bike in the second moto and was able to hang with tomac. If anyone says something different, well, I dont care Grinning
7/10/2016 11:44am
aaryn #234 wrote:
Yes but as we heard Langston and Weige say 2 million times today, Southwick is hybrid mix, not really a sand track. Has the team or...
Yes but as we heard Langston and Weige say 2 million times today, Southwick is hybrid mix, not really a sand track.

Has the team or anyone been out to test his setting or the PSF1 in general out at Southwick before this weekend?

The conditions out there were unique. The sand Ken was riding during the week going from his video was completely different to what they were racing today.

He said at the end of moto one he had problems with his fork. They went back obviously made some changes, went back out and things improved.

Going by that it would asume it was more of a team / personal setting that was off and not the actual fork itself.

I don't understant why people have in issue with any rider speaking their mind and coming straight out with the reason "They" think hampered them in a race.

Personally think Eli would have one no matter what today, he looked the better rider on this day, but nothing wrong with Ken speaking his mind and giving us his exact thoughts just moments after the race had finished.
ML512 wrote:
You nailed it in your end, more of a setting problem, but he acted and made it come across like more of a component problem. I...
You nailed it in your end, more of a setting problem, but he acted and made it come across like more of a component problem. I also heard today that he did an interview with a German magazine where he said he was forced into using that stuff, I haven't seen the interview for myself, but if that's the case then that part isn't true.
He did say it and here is the link to it: Speedweek

Ken Roczen is known to use the Kayaba air fork in the outdoor season. But that does not change the fact that he does not like the revolutionary technology of the Japanese. Roczen is clear: "Currently I drive air fork and up to the mishap in Glen Helen, as the entire air was out, I am satisfied. Nevertheless, my opinion is that this is not the solution, everyone hates the fork. That is why so many switched back to the spring fork. But I can not, for whatever reason ."
RG1
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7/10/2016 11:52am
Because it's an excuse.
It's not an excuse at all, it's a contributing factor to his drop in performance.
RG1
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7/10/2016 11:53am
Germinator wrote:
He did say it and here is the link to it: [url=http://www.speedweek.com/usmx1/news/95127/Ken-Roczen-ueber-2017-Honda-Suzuki-odere280a6.html]Speedweek[/url] [b]Ken Roczen is known to use the Kayaba air fork in the outdoor season...
He did say it and here is the link to it: Speedweek

Ken Roczen is known to use the Kayaba air fork in the outdoor season. But that does not change the fact that he does not like the revolutionary technology of the Japanese. Roczen is clear: "Currently I drive air fork and up to the mishap in Glen Helen, as the entire air was out, I am satisfied. Nevertheless, my opinion is that this is not the solution, everyone hates the fork. That is why so many switched back to the spring fork. But I can not, for whatever reason ."
So he didn't say that he was forced into using it at all. He said he wasn't allowed to switch back
Bonanza69
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7/10/2016 12:00pm
matze wrote:
Obviously, tomac was the better rider and had the perfect set up yesterday. Simple as that. He was faster, just like roczen the other 12 motos...
Obviously, tomac was the better rider and had the perfect set up yesterday. Simple as that. He was faster, just like roczen the other 12 motos. Kr obviously improved his bike in the second moto and was able to hang with tomac. If anyone says something different, well, I dont care Grinning
Genau auf den Punkt gebracht.Smile
Jimmy_Sloan
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7/10/2016 12:53pm Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 1:01pm
RG1 wrote:
It's not an excuse at all, it's a contributing factor to his drop in performance.
It's probably why Tomac has been losing to Roczen; because Tomac's set up has been off. You've seen what happens when Tomac is on. Wink
matze
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7/10/2016 1:01pm
RG1 wrote:
It's not an excuse at all, it's a contributing factor to his drop in performance.
It's probably why Tomac has been losing to Roczen; because Tomac's set up has been off. You've seen what happens when Tomac is on. Wink
Youre trying too hard bro
Jimmy_Sloan
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7/10/2016 1:18pm Edited Date/Time 7/10/2016 1:25pm
matze wrote:
Youre trying too hard bro
I guess we will see at the next race if I'm right. Wink
7/10/2016 1:20pm
Whats the difference between an excuse and a reason for underperforming?
mx 219
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7/10/2016 2:35pm
Excuses sound best to those that make them.

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