grid start for SX (only)

brimx153
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Edited Date/Time 3/19/2016 10:05pm
have heard a few ideas about changing SX to make it better, ie joker lane etc . my idea is to get rid of the start gate . start them in a grid start like road racing .5 bikes each row ,4 grids. the reason i think this would be great . is we would get the top 5 riders out front battling from lap one . most races that tend to be really good in SX is when the top guys get out together . so why do we have to wait and prey ever race for this to happen ,instead of making it happen each race .i ve seen loads of racing were one guy gets the start .others dont ,get held up by a slower rider ,buy the time he gets past the race is over .the guy in front has a 10 sec lead. i know the start get is special to motocross . and i do think we should always keep it outdoors , and even in the semi and lcq in SX to get your grid pick and give all riders a fair chance to quillify . it would make them more exciting too . there s no down side imo. think about dungey,kroc,tomac,trey and js7 going across the finsh line after the first lap with only 2 sec s between them , with 19 more to go
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GuyB
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12/15/2015 5:43pm
I think an unintended consequence of that one is that you'd also get the leaders lapping the tail end of the field much faster.
KTMShane699
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12/15/2015 5:45pm
So the fastest riders can't get a good start on their own against the slower riders? And the slower qualified riders already start at a disadvantage?

And we don't get to see the fastest riders come through the pack?

Sounds like a great idea.

Shane
ga_pike
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12/15/2015 6:02pm
It's an idea... if, and I mean IF they were to do a grid start, you'd have to figure out a fair way to start the fastest guys in the rear IMO... but that could be dangerous.

I think the current start is about as fair as you can get. I could see moving to a double row gate as a possibility.
Indy mxer
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12/15/2015 6:47pm
I actually think his idea has some merit. I too would like to see the the fast guys get out together. Watching them come thru the pack, passing slower riders does nothing for me.
Almost all forms of racing put the fastest guys up front. It only makes the racing better. Just think about it for a minute, how exciting it would be if you knew every race the top guys would be battling right from the start.

Why not try it. All sports evolve. If you don't you fall behind. MLB is a perfect example what happens when you don't change to suit your audience. They've lost a generation of fans that think the game is boring.
Hell, even the NFL with all their success is always looking for ways to improve their product.

The Shop

early
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12/15/2015 7:04pm
Not as bad of an idea as most will claim it is...imho. But make it 6,6,6,4 that way the podium of both heats gets on the front row. This could also possibly open up more floor space for actual track.
bobojim
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12/15/2015 7:58pm
So the fastest riders can't get a good start on their own against the slower riders? And the slower qualified riders already start at a disadvantage...
So the fastest riders can't get a good start on their own against the slower riders? And the slower qualified riders already start at a disadvantage?

And we don't get to see the fastest riders come through the pack?

Sounds like a great idea.

Shane
Change is always hard to stomach from one perspective or another. But it works fine for just about every other form of Motorsport. So can't be that bad. Won't stop a rider with a bad qualification, or who makes an early mistake coming through the field.
731chopper
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12/15/2015 8:16pm
I wouldn't be a fan. The way we start is part of what makes our sport so special compared to other motor sports.
brimx153
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12/15/2015 10:19pm
So the fastest riders can't get a good start on their own against the slower riders? And the slower qualified riders already start at a disadvantage...
So the fastest riders can't get a good start on their own against the slower riders? And the slower qualified riders already start at a disadvantage?

And we don't get to see the fastest riders come through the pack?

Sounds like a great idea.

Shane
its so you get the fastest guys battling for a race win the off the start . last year how many times did we see tomac and canard get crap starts ,turn faster lap times than dungey then by the time they get to second and dungey already has a 30 second led . all because they had a bad start , would nt it be better to have them all start together and see who can win . which would you rather ,know that every race there will be a battle by at least 5 to 7 rider s that are all very close in speed .or the way it is now ,just how and prey all the good riders get a good start so we can have a good race . there will always be people who fall or quilify bad, so you can watch them go through the pack ,
brimx153
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12/15/2015 10:59pm
my main point with this is the start in SX is gone too important ,if you get a bad one (in the full field) you will not have a chance to win .only js7 in toronto form can do it and thats very rare it happends. when i look at SX what happened 90% of the races imo .you have a few great starters ie Short ,MA800 etc who are fast top 10 guys .they get the holeshot . one of the big 5 or 6 riders is second ie KROC .another is 3rd ie DUNGE ,the other 4 guys only have ok to bad starts . during the first few corners kroc passes short .dunge get held up a tad passing short he is now 5 seconds behind Kroc. dunge starts going slightly faster for the next 15 laps. but it doesnt matter because of the 5 seconds kroc made whlie dunge got held up on the first lap. kroc wins the race . back in the pack tomac and canard set the fastest lap times take s them all race but work there way slowly to 4th and 5 th ,after terrible starts. so that night 4 guys had the speed to win all within a few spilt seconds of each others best time ,but yet we have a boring ass race . all because of the start . if we started them all together that night who would win .i know we would of had a hell of a race at least
RG1
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12/15/2015 11:15pm
The start is important in SX, but it's also what gives you some variation in winners, the best guys get a good start a lot of the time anyway. I don't see how putting everyone in order from fastest to slowest will make the racing better.
skid mark
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12/15/2015 11:18pm
As stated above, I like how it could change the track design.
GuyB
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12/15/2015 11:24pm
Now if you were talking about inverting the field... Wink
Sully
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12/15/2015 11:26pm
GuyB wrote:
Now if you were talking about inverting the field... Wink
...you'd send RJ into another epic rant.
Silliker269
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12/15/2015 11:29pm
I like it , want to see the fast guys dicing more, this is the way to do it
jock
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Fantasy
12/15/2015 11:42pm
GuyB wrote:
Now if you were talking about inverting the field... Wink
Sully wrote:
...you'd send RJ into another epic rant.
That was good. Laughing
chump6784
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12/16/2015 12:05am
brimx153 wrote:
my main point with this is the start in SX is gone too important ,if you get a bad one (in the full field) you will...
my main point with this is the start in SX is gone too important ,if you get a bad one (in the full field) you will not have a chance to win .only js7 in toronto form can do it and thats very rare it happends. when i look at SX what happened 90% of the races imo .you have a few great starters ie Short ,MA800 etc who are fast top 10 guys .they get the holeshot . one of the big 5 or 6 riders is second ie KROC .another is 3rd ie DUNGE ,the other 4 guys only have ok to bad starts . during the first few corners kroc passes short .dunge get held up a tad passing short he is now 5 seconds behind Kroc. dunge starts going slightly faster for the next 15 laps. but it doesnt matter because of the 5 seconds kroc made whlie dunge got held up on the first lap. kroc wins the race . back in the pack tomac and canard set the fastest lap times take s them all race but work there way slowly to 4th and 5 th ,after terrible starts. so that night 4 guys had the speed to win all within a few spilt seconds of each others best time ,but yet we have a boring ass race . all because of the start . if we started them all together that night who would win .i know we would of had a hell of a race at least
Hard to disagree with that
philG
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12/16/2015 12:28am
That makes it all about qualifying, racing where they spend 2 days putting the fastest guy at the front , and wonder why its dull .

Unless they do reverse grids ( remember second row starts at LA Coliseum) .. it wont add anything.

We race grid starts, and if you aren't on the front row, you can forget winning.
brimx153
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12/16/2015 12:50am
philG wrote:
That makes it all about qualifying, racing where they spend 2 days putting the fastest guy at the front , and wonder why its dull...
That makes it all about qualifying, racing where they spend 2 days putting the fastest guy at the front , and wonder why its dull .

Unless they do reverse grids ( remember second row starts at LA Coliseum) .. it wont add anything.

We race grid starts, and if you aren't on the front row, you can forget winning.
that s like saying if your not top 5 out of the first corner ,u will not win .if you do it to say 6 rider grid ,the top 2 rows have a good shot ,after 1 lap i would bet the guy in 12th would be a hell of alot nearer the lead than he is now .after that its the same as it is now .if ur outside the top 12 on the first lap its very very hard to win
RG1
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12/16/2015 1:13am
brimx153 wrote:
that s like saying if your not top 5 out of the first corner ,u will not win .if you do it to say 6 rider...
that s like saying if your not top 5 out of the first corner ,u will not win .if you do it to say 6 rider grid ,the top 2 rows have a good shot ,after 1 lap i would bet the guy in 12th would be a hell of alot nearer the lead than he is now .after that its the same as it is now .if ur outside the top 12 on the first lap its very very hard to win
The start is obviously key, but it's not a lottery, its not bad luck if you end up outside the top 12 after the start, you just didn't execute that part of the race as well as the other guys. In my opinion, if you get a start that gives you no chance of winning, then you don't deserve to win the race, regardless of the speed you have. I don't think starting in a grid formation would give you better racing, all it will do is give the fastest guy a huge chance to get the best start and then 9 times out of 10 they will just ride away from anyone else
RussB
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12/16/2015 2:20am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2015 2:23am
I think the grid start idea could work, however I think its just a band aid for a bigger problem.... the tracks are too restrictive for passing opportunities.

If the tracks were more open, had more split lanes, less 90 degree corners, more/longer whoop sections and just more lines in general then riders would have more chance to pass/make up time and therefore getting a mid pack start would be less of an issue. Part of the reason the Stewart come back/Toronto race was so good was because that track was good. There were areas where riders could difference themselves from others, it allowed stewart to make time and recover from his poor start. A lot of tracks dont provide that.

I'm not having a pop at the track builders, as I can only imagine how difficult it must be with the time contraints and space constraints they have. The bikes are partly to blame as they have became so good. But I think the tracks are the main cause of the dull races
51xc
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12/16/2015 2:25am
i like the idea. more often than not the race will be won by a top 5 qualifier anyways. it also could allow for different track designs and would be overall a saver start. it's true that the starting system we have now gives more excitement in the early laps but with a grid style start this could make for better racing over the entire 20 laps.
bob567
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12/16/2015 3:33am
There is nothing wrong with the format - leave it alone.
philG
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12/16/2015 3:45am
philG wrote:
That makes it all about qualifying, racing where they spend 2 days putting the fastest guy at the front , and wonder why its dull...
That makes it all about qualifying, racing where they spend 2 days putting the fastest guy at the front , and wonder why its dull .

Unless they do reverse grids ( remember second row starts at LA Coliseum) .. it wont add anything.

We race grid starts, and if you aren't on the front row, you can forget winning.
brimx153 wrote:
that s like saying if your not top 5 out of the first corner ,u will not win .if you do it to say 6 rider...
that s like saying if your not top 5 out of the first corner ,u will not win .if you do it to say 6 rider grid ,the top 2 rows have a good shot ,after 1 lap i would bet the guy in 12th would be a hell of alot nearer the lead than he is now .after that its the same as it is now .if ur outside the top 12 on the first lap its very very hard to win
Well how many times does that happen, that the guy that isn't in the top 4 doesn't win.

Gate pick when you are lining up as 20 is crucial, a grid that is rows would have to have a stagger too, so the guy in 1st just moves over and shuts everyone down , because pole is usually on the outside, so 2-6 get shut in , and everyone piles up.

I have tracks where I would rather qualify behind pole than be on pole. If you are on pole, you have to close everyone down, and that leaves a clear run round the outside , for the guy on row 2.

Bearing in mind we have tracks with SX length starts, its a valid argument that will carry over.... and don't forget the roost as well..
Bultaco
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12/16/2015 4:00am
Class C has been doing this for years. With rider position on the grid based on qualifying times. In supercross (not to be mistaken for motocross) it would work.

BUT, I think one of the big features that makes moto what it is....is the mass start. Theoretically, at the drop of the gate, everyone has the same chance.
Gringoe
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12/16/2015 4:05am
Lame

This isn't motogp, never has been never will
Indy mxer
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12/16/2015 4:10am
I guess if the start is that exciting for some of you fine.
But I'd trade that 15 seconds of excitement for 15 to 20 minutes of the fastest riders battling with each other right from the get go. Forget about our sport being different.
There's a reason the most popular forms of racing put the fastest guys up front!

Some of the races turn into snoozers pretty quick imo. I want to see the best go at it every week.

Whats fun about seeing a couple of the top guys get buried in the pack, pass slower riders with relative ease while the leader is gone and checked out? With so many of the fast guys so close in lap times the days of coming thru the pack into the lead are over for the most part.

How cool would it be to know every week, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Barcia, Roczen, Canard and the other top guys will be going at it for 20 laps? At least try it to see how it works at a couple rounds.

Change is good!
KTMShane699
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12/16/2015 4:39am
Indy mxer wrote:
I guess if the start is that exciting for some of you fine. But I'd trade that 15 seconds of excitement for 15 to 20 minutes...
I guess if the start is that exciting for some of you fine.
But I'd trade that 15 seconds of excitement for 15 to 20 minutes of the fastest riders battling with each other right from the get go. Forget about our sport being different.
There's a reason the most popular forms of racing put the fastest guys up front!

Some of the races turn into snoozers pretty quick imo. I want to see the best go at it every week.

Whats fun about seeing a couple of the top guys get buried in the pack, pass slower riders with relative ease while the leader is gone and checked out? With so many of the fast guys so close in lap times the days of coming thru the pack into the lead are over for the most part.

How cool would it be to know every week, Tomac, Dungey, Stewart, Barcia, Roczen, Canard and the other top guys will be going at it for 20 laps? At least try it to see how it works at a couple rounds.

Change is good!
It's not that the start is that exciting, it's that at the start everyone has the same opportunity. You can have that surprise good start and a rider that excels. Looking at it as just wanting to see the top six or seven guy go at it, why not simply make the main smaller? You're accomplishing the same thing by putting those guys automatically ahead at the start and taking a way a chance for an up and coming rider to rise to the occasion.

A grid start and being towards the back completely removed any possibility that Valentino Rossi could win the championship in MotoGP this year. Keep the starts how they are. There's already an advantage to be gained in qualifying well; you get first pick of the best gates.

Shane
12/16/2015 4:40am
How about leave everything alone and just get another 25% more dirt in the stadiums
steveada
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12/16/2015 4:50am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2015 4:53am
I think you will still have the same outcomes. The guy who gets the start will still have the clear advantage, and whether you are battling against a slower rider, or battling with one of the other top riders, you will have slower lap times than the guy up front. So by the time things get sorted out in positions 2-6, #1 is still 5 seconds up on everyone else and the conga line will still roll for 15 minutes. Sometimes having a slower rider who is a good starter running up front actually helps to keep the racing closer than one of the top guys getting the start and leading 20 laps.
419250f
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12/16/2015 5:16am
Yeahhh..... No.
I'm with Reefer on this one.

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