Time for a weight limit rule change?

moto0852
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moto0852
Edited Date/Time 12/10/2015 12:47pm
With the AER's you've got KTM now right at the weight limit (with an aftermarket pipe). Will they stop innovating with more weight savings because it will just make the bikes illegal?

Bummer when the AMA rules start inhibiting progress.
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Reefer Sutherland 12/9/2015 8:22am
12/9/2015 8:22am
moto0852 wrote:
With the AER's you've got KTM now right at the weight limit (with an aftermarket pipe). Will they stop innovating with more weight savings because it...
With the AER's you've got KTM now right at the weight limit (with an aftermarket pipe). Will they stop innovating with more weight savings because it will just make the bikes illegal?

Bummer when the AMA rules start inhibiting progress.
They've been inhibiting it since 1986.
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 12/9/2015 8:25am
12/9/2015 8:25am
Same thing seems like it's hindering Nascar right now. I don't follow that sport much, but that's what I gather from the fans that speak about it.

If any manufacturer can get the weight below the legal limit, they can start adding it back on where ever they want. There is still a production benefit of going this route, but it is a professional sport, and the weight thing isn't a safety thing as much as it is a "fairness" thing. So I'd be fine with dropping the weight limit some to get a little more innovation.
moto0852
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moto0852 12/9/2015 8:28am
12/9/2015 8:28am
moto0852 wrote:
With the AER's you've got KTM now right at the weight limit (with an aftermarket pipe). Will they stop innovating with more weight savings because it...
With the AER's you've got KTM now right at the weight limit (with an aftermarket pipe). Will they stop innovating with more weight savings because it will just make the bikes illegal?

Bummer when the AMA rules start inhibiting progress.
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
They've been inhibiting it since 1986.
Woohoo Well...I'll give ya that one.
Motofinne
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Motofinne 12/9/2015 8:29am
12/9/2015 8:29am
Absolutely! There is problem if a stock KTM is right at the limit.

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RussB
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RussB 12/9/2015 8:33am
12/9/2015 8:33am
With the lower weight limit now easier to acheive, it could potentially level the playing field more by privateers/smaller teams being able to easily and affordably have a bike that weighs the same as a factory team bike, and I guess that isn't a bad thing?

I say give it a few years for Suzuki/Yamaha to catch up then drop the weight limit a little more Tongue
newmann
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newmann 12/9/2015 8:35am
12/9/2015 8:35am
Would be unfair to the Japanese. They'll pull out of the series. Been discussed before regarding common sense rule changes.
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BAMX 12/9/2015 8:37am
12/9/2015 8:37am
We should be rewarding innovation....drop the limit 10lbs.
ML512
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ML512 12/9/2015 8:40am
12/9/2015 8:40am
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that a lot of teams and riders change parts on their bikes that actually add more weight to the bike.
moto0852
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moto0852 12/9/2015 8:49am
12/9/2015 8:49am
ML512 wrote:
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that...
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that a lot of teams and riders change parts on their bikes that actually add more weight to the bike.
Michael that's my point though. The rule was originally designed with some good intent... level the playing field. Let the little guy have a chance to compete etc. I'm not saying go back to works bikes with different frames, engines etc where they would be at a disadvantage.

I'm saying as far as weight, "The field is now level". I just believe as BAMX stated, you should reward innovation.

I don't like the scenario I'm running in my head when KTM engineers are working on the 17 bikes and one says "Hey, if we do this we can save a whole pound off the bike!" and the rest all chime in and say "Waste of time. No point"
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51xc 12/9/2015 8:55am
12/9/2015 8:55am
ML512 wrote:
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that...
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that a lot of teams and riders change parts on their bikes that actually add more weight to the bike.
you mean like this goat? wait what? Silly


but in all seriousness, i agree.
ML512
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ML512 12/9/2015 9:02am
12/9/2015 9:02am
ML512 wrote:
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that...
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that a lot of teams and riders change parts on their bikes that actually add more weight to the bike.
moto0852 wrote:
Michael that's my point though. The rule was originally designed with some good intent... level the playing field. Let the little guy have a chance to...
Michael that's my point though. The rule was originally designed with some good intent... level the playing field. Let the little guy have a chance to compete etc. I'm not saying go back to works bikes with different frames, engines etc where they would be at a disadvantage.

I'm saying as far as weight, "The field is now level". I just believe as BAMX stated, you should reward innovation.

I don't like the scenario I'm running in my head when KTM engineers are working on the 17 bikes and one says "Hey, if we do this we can save a whole pound off the bike!" and the rest all chime in and say "Waste of time. No point"
They'll still do it. The race team is still dropping weight on their bikes because of certain items they run. Tires, bib mousse, CV forks, skidplates, heavier/stronger rims, ect.
loftyair
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loftyair 12/9/2015 9:11am
12/9/2015 9:11am Edited Date/Time 12/9/2015 9:12am
Drop it! (The weight limit)
Rich Piano
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Rich Piano 12/9/2015 9:45am
12/9/2015 9:45am
Minimum bike weights are pretty much useless. Especially in this sport.

That's why other motorsports don't do it how we do.



luckyguy19
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luckyguy19 12/9/2015 9:52am
12/9/2015 9:52am
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly take an extra 5 pounds to keep a bike reliable. We aren't talking at the professional level because they will always replace parts at regular intervals. But for the average rider this is not possible.
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Markopolo400 12/9/2015 10:10am
12/9/2015 10:10am
Like the 150SX this year, KTM will star working on centralizing the bike instead of lowering the weight more.

If you look, KTM actually raised the crank on the small 2-stroke...Real engineering at work...Oooooo
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mxtech1 12/9/2015 10:12am
12/9/2015 10:12am
ML512 wrote:
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that...
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that a lot of teams and riders change parts on their bikes that actually add more weight to the bike.
But in the 450 class factory teams are allowed to have un-obtainable motor and suspension packages on a "level playing field??"

Any decent mechanic can get a bike below the legal weight limit if the budget is available. But the small teams and privateers can't touch the resources factory teams have for motors and suspension.

Let's be honest with ourselves over what components really create competitive advantages. It's not weight limits, i'll tell you that.
ML512
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ML512 12/9/2015 10:16am
12/9/2015 10:16am
ML512 wrote:
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that...
I think leaving the rule for now is good because it levels the field for the smaller teams and privateers. Also, you have to remember that a lot of teams and riders change parts on their bikes that actually add more weight to the bike.
mxtech1 wrote:
But in the 450 class factory teams are allowed to have un-obtainable motor and suspension packages on a "level playing field??" Any decent mechanic can get...
But in the 450 class factory teams are allowed to have un-obtainable motor and suspension packages on a "level playing field??"

Any decent mechanic can get a bike below the legal weight limit if the budget is available. But the small teams and privateers can't touch the resources factory teams have for motors and suspension.

Let's be honest with ourselves over what components really create competitive advantages. It's not weight limits, i'll tell you that.
You actually shot yourself in the foot there, everything is obtainable when the budget is available.

I also meant to say it helps level the playing field a bit, it's just one aspect of the bike that can separate between the privateer level and factory level.
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IceMan446 12/9/2015 10:19am
12/9/2015 10:19am
luckyguy19 wrote:
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly...
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly take an extra 5 pounds to keep a bike reliable. We aren't talking at the professional level because they will always replace parts at regular intervals. But for the average rider this is not possible.
My thought exactly.

At some point, you can only take so much weight out of a motor before it blows up on the face of a triple.

The factory teams can do a lot to shave weight but for the average consumer, who wants a sub 200lb bike, good luck trying make the thing last more than a year.

And people are talking about wanting to make the sport cheaper???

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mb
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mb 12/9/2015 11:05am
12/9/2015 11:05am
The rule should be a percentage of the stock weight. Production bikes will not be restricted but crazy works bikes will, which is the intent of the rule.
Reefer Sutherland 12/9/2015 11:22am
12/9/2015 11:22am
luckyguy19 wrote:
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly...
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly take an extra 5 pounds to keep a bike reliable. We aren't talking at the professional level because they will always replace parts at regular intervals. But for the average rider this is not possible.
IceMan446 wrote:
My thought exactly. At some point, you can only take so much weight out of a motor before it blows up on the face of a...
My thought exactly.

At some point, you can only take so much weight out of a motor before it blows up on the face of a triple.

The factory teams can do a lot to shave weight but for the average consumer, who wants a sub 200lb bike, good luck trying make the thing last more than a year.

And people are talking about wanting to make the sport cheaper???
so you are trying to draw a correlation between the weight of a bike, and it's reliability? Hang this on the vital tree of knowledge next to the boot bender guys.

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seth505 12/9/2015 11:28am
12/9/2015 11:28am
luckyguy19 wrote:
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly...
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly take an extra 5 pounds to keep a bike reliable. We aren't talking at the professional level because they will always replace parts at regular intervals. But for the average rider this is not possible.
It's not that simple man, less metal doesn't equal weaker.
wideopen198 12/9/2015 11:33am
12/9/2015 11:33am
luckyguy19 wrote:
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly...
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly take an extra 5 pounds to keep a bike reliable. We aren't talking at the professional level because they will always replace parts at regular intervals. But for the average rider this is not possible.
Yep, you already see a ktm break in half now and then.... and another option for the manufacturer is to use expensive materials to save weight if the limit goes down. Which results in even more expensive bikes.
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Spartacus 12/9/2015 11:51am
12/9/2015 11:51am Edited Date/Time 12/9/2015 11:51am
The AMA and the manufactures listed so closely to what we have to say here on Vital, I'm sure the weight limit will be on top of their agenda at the next meetings. Right after 2T power parity in pro racing.........



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GuyB 12/9/2015 11:53am
12/9/2015 11:53am
What should the weight be? Where do you feel safe trimming weight? Frames? Wheels? Suspension components? Handlebars? Triple clamps?
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tprice07 12/9/2015 12:08pm
12/9/2015 12:08pm
This is a stupid question but is the weight limit for the bike alone? or rider + bike?

because if it is just bike then someone like Blake Baggett is getting a hell of a power advantage compared to some of the bigger guys.
ML512
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ML512 12/9/2015 12:14pm
12/9/2015 12:14pm
tprice07 wrote:
This is a stupid question but is the weight limit for the bike alone? or rider + bike? because if it is just bike then someone...
This is a stupid question but is the weight limit for the bike alone? or rider + bike?

because if it is just bike then someone like Blake Baggett is getting a hell of a power advantage compared to some of the bigger guys.
I quit bringing power-to-weight ratio into consideration when I watched a 210lb Malcolm Stewart pull holeshots on a 250F... Laughing
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Phillip_Lamb 12/9/2015 12:19pm
12/9/2015 12:19pm
I think about 210-215 for a 450 is good. I remember MXA testing RC's 2004 crf450 and it was at 216 with about 66hp. and this was 12 years ago!

a weight drop would be great as it makes the bikes easier to handle. Although I do think the needs to be a 350 class. the 450s realistically are open class bikes.

honestly, have you ever seen so many guys quading anything? ever?
newmann
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newmann 12/9/2015 12:21pm
12/9/2015 12:21pm
luckyguy19 wrote:
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly...
Its going to get to a point where loosing weight on the bikes is going to make them unreliable. Less metal = weaker parts. I'd gladly take an extra 5 pounds to keep a bike reliable. We aren't talking at the professional level because they will always replace parts at regular intervals. But for the average rider this is not possible.
wideopen198 wrote:
Yep, you already see a ktm break in half now and then.... and another option for the manufacturer is to use expensive materials to save weight...
Yep, you already see a ktm break in half now and then.... and another option for the manufacturer is to use expensive materials to save weight if the limit goes down. Which results in even more expensive bikes.
LMAO, Yamaha is the butt of that joke these days with their almighty aluminum frames snapping right and left. Been a bunch of posts here lately.
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IceMan446 12/9/2015 12:44pm
12/9/2015 12:44pm
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so you are trying to draw a correlation between the weight of a bike, and it's reliability? Hang this on the vital tree of knowledge next...
so you are trying to draw a correlation between the weight of a bike, and it's reliability? Hang this on the vital tree of knowledge next to the boot bender guys.

In certain cases, absolutely.

KTM has an issue with their spokes from trying to save weight in that area.

Look at the results.

Ill take the heavier set of spokes please.
moto0852
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moto0852 12/9/2015 12:49pm
12/9/2015 12:49pm
GuyB wrote:
What should the weight be? Where do you feel safe trimming weight? Frames? Wheels? Suspension components? Handlebars? Triple clamps?
My highly scientific number would be "lower that what it is just rolling off the showroom!" Which is were we will be next year.

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