Why no EFI 2 strokes?

Charper732
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9/14/2015 10:30am
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike.

DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning it must have an O2 or wide band sensor. All those leaded fuels are a no no. And im not 100% but guessing that premix wouldnt be doing any favors either.

And if the DFI system was operated as an open loop FI system the compression of the motor would have to be consistant inorder for it not to go insanely rich as the motor looses comp over time...meaning much more frequent rebuilds.

I believe FI is coming for 2t, but definitely not DFI.
Berm
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Fantasy
9/14/2015 11:29am
Charper732 wrote:
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike. DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning...
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike.

DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning it must have an O2 or wide band sensor. All those leaded fuels are a no no. And im not 100% but guessing that premix wouldnt be doing any favors either.

And if the DFI system was operated as an open loop FI system the compression of the motor would have to be consistant inorder for it not to go insanely rich as the motor looses comp over time...meaning much more frequent rebuilds.

I believe FI is coming for 2t, but definitely not DFI.
etec is a dfi 2-stroke concept that has been employed for over 10 years. Pretty sure etec outboards and ski doo etec sleds are doing just fine. In fact, XC racing has switched over from the RS (carbed) sleds to the XRS (etec)...although that's because they have to have fuel injected motors by rule now.

If it works in sleds, there isn't really a mechanical reason it wouldn't also work in dirtbikes and would only be a cost issue.
Bearuno
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9/14/2015 12:43pm
Crush wrote:
Honda has publicly stated they are forever now a 4 stroke company... It's potentially in their benefit to have their weight, greater than suzuki's, behind a...
Honda has publicly stated they are forever now a 4 stroke company... It's potentially in their benefit to have their weight, greater than suzuki's, behind a platform and hence the status quo, blocking a significant innovation that really could make 2 strokes much more competitive... Japanese companies don't like to about face. Suzuki will just sell the best turning version of whatever platform is the norm.

In a fairly rated power output comparison, an EFI four stroke and a DFI two stroke, the favour likely heads back to the two stroke... It'll still be lighter, engine is still simpler and now the rideability, fueling and usability all goes up to equal the four stroke.
DFI is on many, many family cars - probably on one of yours, Crush. And I think your car is a 4T. Unless you drive an old Saab or Trabant.........

DFI will come to motorcycles. Like it or not. We live in a world of change.
BobPA
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9/14/2015 1:32pm
colintrax wrote:
Same as a thumper
False, they still draw air via ports from the crankcase, like a traditional carb engine.

The Shop

BobPA
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9/14/2015 1:36pm
Charper732 wrote:
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike. DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning...
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike.

DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning it must have an O2 or wide band sensor. All those leaded fuels are a no no. And im not 100% but guessing that premix wouldnt be doing any favors either.

And if the DFI system was operated as an open loop FI system the compression of the motor would have to be consistant inorder for it not to go insanely rich as the motor looses comp over time...meaning much more frequent rebuilds.

I believe FI is coming for 2t, but definitely not DFI.
Non of the DI jet skis used an O2 sensor. Kawasaki, sea doo, and Polaris all had DI two strokes from 2000-2003...and they are absolute nightmares to work on. Pre-mix does not work for DI, as it does not lubricate the crank.

Outboard Etec engines have been DI for a long time....same with my fathers Mercury.
Charper732
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9/14/2015 2:01pm
My point was in relation to the amount of hours you can put on a 2t dirtbike before the compression drops.

Pretty sure everything you just listed is a hell of a lot more durable than a 250sx being rung out.
mx836
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9/14/2015 3:05pm
kiwifan wrote:
is Suzuki a 4 stroke company too?
VET176 wrote:
No.
kiwifan wrote:
yeah I guess producing a 85 means they are not

Hondas blocking isnt doing a good job then is it?
That fuel injected 2 stroke snowmobile engine in the MXA article is a Suzuki.
kiwifan
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9/14/2015 11:16pm
VET176 wrote:
No.
kiwifan wrote:
yeah I guess producing a 85 means they are not

Hondas blocking isnt doing a good job then is it?
Crush wrote:
Honda has publicly stated they are forever now a 4 stroke company... It's potentially in their benefit to have their weight, greater than suzuki's, behind a...
Honda has publicly stated they are forever now a 4 stroke company... It's potentially in their benefit to have their weight, greater than suzuki's, behind a platform and hence the status quo, blocking a significant innovation that really could make 2 strokes much more competitive... Japanese companies don't like to about face. Suzuki will just sell the best turning version of whatever platform is the norm.

In a fairly rated power output comparison, an EFI four stroke and a DFI two stroke, the favour likely heads back to the two stroke... It'll still be lighter, engine is still simpler and now the rideability, fueling and usability all goes up to equal the four stroke.
I wasnt questioning Hondas statements at all....I am fully aware of their stance....
hillbilly
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9/15/2015 6:28am
colintrax wrote:
Same as a thumper
BobPA wrote:
False, they still draw air via ports from the crankcase, like a traditional carb engine.
So how is the crank and rod bearings lubed if the mixture is direct injected into the combustion chamber.

I cant view those links on this 386, I will have to look when my daughter gets home with a laptop.
hillbilly
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9/15/2015 6:31am
Charper732 wrote:
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike. DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning...
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike.

DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning it must have an O2 or wide band sensor. All those leaded fuels are a no no. And im not 100% but guessing that premix wouldnt be doing any favors either.

And if the DFI system was operated as an open loop FI system the compression of the motor would have to be consistant inorder for it not to go insanely rich as the motor looses comp over time...meaning much more frequent rebuilds.

I believe FI is coming for 2t, but definitely not DFI.
BobPA wrote:
Non of the DI jet skis used an O2 sensor. Kawasaki, sea doo, and Polaris all had DI two strokes from 2000-2003...and they are absolute nightmares...
Non of the DI jet skis used an O2 sensor. Kawasaki, sea doo, and Polaris all had DI two strokes from 2000-2003...and they are absolute nightmares to work on. Pre-mix does not work for DI, as it does not lubricate the crank.

Outboard Etec engines have been DI for a long time....same with my fathers Mercury.
Ok,I'm guessing Di uses a oil pump for the crank and rod?
BobPA
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9/15/2015 6:37am
Charper732 wrote:
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike. DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning...
There is no way in hell DFI will ever be on a competition 2t dirtbike.

DFI has to work on a closed loop FI system. Meaning it must have an O2 or wide band sensor. All those leaded fuels are a no no. And im not 100% but guessing that premix wouldnt be doing any favors either.

And if the DFI system was operated as an open loop FI system the compression of the motor would have to be consistant inorder for it not to go insanely rich as the motor looses comp over time...meaning much more frequent rebuilds.

I believe FI is coming for 2t, but definitely not DFI.
BobPA wrote:
Non of the DI jet skis used an O2 sensor. Kawasaki, sea doo, and Polaris all had DI two strokes from 2000-2003...and they are absolute nightmares...
Non of the DI jet skis used an O2 sensor. Kawasaki, sea doo, and Polaris all had DI two strokes from 2000-2003...and they are absolute nightmares to work on. Pre-mix does not work for DI, as it does not lubricate the crank.

Outboard Etec engines have been DI for a long time....same with my fathers Mercury.
hillbilly wrote:
Ok,I'm guessing Di uses a oil pump for the crank and rod?
Yep, all the DI jet skis run a mikuni pump driven off the front of the crank. The last generation sea doo (Rotax) actually did run oil in part of the crank case...but it was used to live the counterbalance shaft. There was still an oil pump to lube the crank/rod. The older Rotax/see doo engines ran a rotary valve instead of reeds...and they also had oil in the crank case...but ran a traditional oil pump.
resetjet
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9/15/2015 6:53am
Contrary to what most people think, I believe it will be a sad day when the govt eventually makes the manufacturers use DI for emissions reasons.

Yes, hillbilly, outboards have an oil tank, that lubes the bottom end.

FI to me for a two stroke is just plain stupid.
DI makes some sense, but its not like it is gonna turn your bike into a rocket.

Does anyone know what happens to a DI engine when on the pipe???? Really motorcycles are the only motors I know of that optimize the pipe to "supercharge" the engine. (I know nothing about snomobiles or jet skis) I am just confused about how this would work, or if it would work, as the DI charge would be after the exhaust port is closed and theoretically there would be no unburnt fuel in the expansion chamber.
ando
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9/15/2015 7:28am
Crush wrote:
Honda has publicly stated they are forever now a 4 stroke company... It's potentially in their benefit to have their weight, greater than suzuki's, behind a...
Honda has publicly stated they are forever now a 4 stroke company... It's potentially in their benefit to have their weight, greater than suzuki's, behind a platform and hence the status quo, blocking a significant innovation that really could make 2 strokes much more competitive... Japanese companies don't like to about face. Suzuki will just sell the best turning version of whatever platform is the norm.

In a fairly rated power output comparison, an EFI four stroke and a DFI two stroke, the favour likely heads back to the two stroke... It'll still be lighter, engine is still simpler and now the rideability, fueling and usability all goes up to equal the four stroke.
For what it's worth, in outboard engines neither has really proven to be clearly better than the other.

However there's the rub - if the DI 2 stroke is not appreciably better than current four strokes, what is the compelling business case to invest R&D and manufacturing infrastructure to develop and produce them?
ando
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9/15/2015 7:34am
colintrax wrote:
Same as a thumper
BobPA wrote:
False, they still draw air via ports from the crankcase, like a traditional carb engine.
hillbilly wrote:
So how is the crank and rod bearings lubed if the mixture is direct injected into the combustion chamber. I cant view those links on this...
So how is the crank and rod bearings lubed if the mixture is direct injected into the combustion chamber.

I cant view those links on this 386, I will have to look when my daughter gets home with a laptop.
One of the key enabling technologies for DI 2 strokes is the lubrication system. Ultra-lean oil ratios for the cylinder area via the use of very precise oil injection, and direct lubrication of crankcase areas with oil pumps.

I think this was the main thing that Orbital achieved.

I believe most (maybe all?) current DI strokes (outboards, sleds etc) utilise Orbital technology under license.
Crush
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9/15/2015 7:38am Edited Date/Time 9/15/2015 7:38am
Do outboard motors have to worry about weight though or CC for CC performance?

Two strokes booted four strokes because they were light, made more power etc...

Four strokes booted two strokes because they closed the weight gap and with their CC advantage, power and rideability was way up on two strokes.

If two stroke development gets rideability and keeps the lighter weight... maybe it helps. The CC issue is still there though for MX.

I want one for offroad tho!
ando
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9/15/2015 7:39am
The MXA article is spot on - DI 2 strokes are not the panacea that some believe them to be. The very things that make current 2 strokes attractive vs 4 strokes i.e. light weight, simplicity, lower cost - largely vanish with direct injection. You don't get something for nothing.

Marine outboards and snowmobiles were a success for DI 2 strokes because they faced mandatory and strict emissions targets. Until something similar happens for dirtbikes I can't see much happening, especially not for closed course competition machines.
Bearuno
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9/15/2015 8:42am
ando wrote:
One of the key enabling technologies for DI 2 strokes is the lubrication system. Ultra-lean oil ratios for the cylinder area via the use of very...
One of the key enabling technologies for DI 2 strokes is the lubrication system. Ultra-lean oil ratios for the cylinder area via the use of very precise oil injection, and direct lubrication of crankcase areas with oil pumps.

I think this was the main thing that Orbital achieved.

I believe most (maybe all?) current DI strokes (outboards, sleds etc) utilise Orbital technology under license.
Orbital have pretty much the entirety of ICE manufacturers using their stratified injection system. Nearly every manufacturer pays them royalties / license their design.

I first saw Ralph Sarich on The Inventors in the Seventies, with his Orbital Engine. That pretty much went nowhere, but his stratified injectors / injection system that was a key part of it, well , I wish I was a teenager with money to invest in his companies at that time. I would have retired a decade or two earlier than I have, and been filthy rich, instead of being merely "comfortable".
Bearuno
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9/15/2015 8:46am
By the way, the new Vertigo Trials Bikes, are EFI.

Doug Lampkin used one to win the Scottish Six Day Trial this year.
resetjet
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9/15/2015 8:50am
anybody know the answer if you can have a DI 2 stroke and still have it "on the pipe"
Bearuno
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9/15/2015 9:31am Edited Date/Time 9/15/2015 9:49am
resetjet wrote:
anybody know the answer if you can have a DI 2 stroke and still have it "on the pipe"
As the scavenging of the cylinder in a 2t is all about the 'pushing out' (and the 'sucking out' by pipe geometry) of the burnt exhaust by the incoming charge, thence (some of the wasted charge, plus contaminated charge) being brought back in, why wouldn't you be able to have a DFI 2t "on the pipe" if a designer so wanted such a power delivery?

But, even better - no wasted fuel charge, as the burnt charge could be pushed out by just the air charge, with far less reintroduction of contaminating exhaust. You could tune the engine to still make use of a far cleaner return of purging air, with then the stoicometric ratio taken care of through the injector.

Plenty of people think that DFI will negate the need for expansion chambers. Well, it may reduce the need / use of them, but not for when you want the best performance possible, for a variety of applications. To throw away one of the key advancements in 2t design, brought to the world by the great, Walter Kaaden, seems a bit bloody stupid.
GuyB
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9/15/2015 9:36am
The Rock wrote:
The MXA article is dated yesterday on their website. Nonetheless my feelings won't be hurt and if this is a duplicate by all means delete the...
The MXA article is dated yesterday on their website.

Nonetheless my feelings won't be hurt and if this is a duplicate by all means delete the thread.
Thanks for posting that. If I'd said the same thing, I'd have been labeled a two-stroke hater.
hillbilly
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9/15/2015 1:44pm
Looks like the best way would be efi thru a throttle body ,that way you'd get great atomization and still use the engine design as it is.
9/15/2015 2:37pm
EFI does NOT make more power. That horse has been beaten to death. It cold starts easier, simple to tune and burns less fuel. Most of which are useless on a 2 stroke motocross bike. It adds more parts that can fail and overcomplicates something that's already works to well. Other than the cool factor why do it?

BobPA
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9/15/2015 3:03pm
EFI does NOT make more power. That horse has been beaten to death. It cold starts easier, simple to tune and burns less fuel. Most of...
EFI does NOT make more power. That horse has been beaten to death. It cold starts easier, simple to tune and burns less fuel. Most of which are useless on a 2 stroke motocross bike. It adds more parts that can fail and overcomplicates something that's already works to well. Other than the cool factor why do it?

Have a read about the new LS GM engines on why they went DI, and you will change your opinion about them not making anymore power...
9/15/2015 3:13pm
BobPA wrote:
Have a read about the new LS GM engines on why they went DI, and you will change your opinion about them not making anymore power...
I just got back from LS fest. I have an LS powered race car and a garage full of motors. DI and EFI are two different things. Have you read about the carbon build up problems from the DI systems on the new L86's and LT1's? It isn't as great as you would think. 2000 psi of fuel pressure and $1000 injectors suck. That's why anyone building fast LS engines are sticking with EFI or carbs.
resetjet
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9/15/2015 3:29pm
resetjet wrote:
anybody know the answer if you can have a DI 2 stroke and still have it "on the pipe"
Bearuno wrote:
As the scavenging of the cylinder in a 2t is all about the 'pushing out' (and the 'sucking out' by pipe geometry) of the burnt exhaust...
As the scavenging of the cylinder in a 2t is all about the 'pushing out' (and the 'sucking out' by pipe geometry) of the burnt exhaust by the incoming charge, thence (some of the wasted charge, plus contaminated charge) being brought back in, why wouldn't you be able to have a DFI 2t "on the pipe" if a designer so wanted such a power delivery?

But, even better - no wasted fuel charge, as the burnt charge could be pushed out by just the air charge, with far less reintroduction of contaminating exhaust. You could tune the engine to still make use of a far cleaner return of purging air, with then the stoicometric ratio taken care of through the injector.

Plenty of people think that DFI will negate the need for expansion chambers. Well, it may reduce the need / use of them, but not for when you want the best performance possible, for a variety of applications. To throw away one of the key advancements in 2t design, brought to the world by the great, Walter Kaaden, seems a bit bloody stupid.
Well, my point is, that the two stroke pipe is a sound chamber that is tuned to reflect the sound (and therefore create a pressure wave) back into the cylinder shoving the "contaminated" charge back into the cylinder creating a supercharging effect. This is when the bike is "one the pipe". If the DI charge is inserted in the top of cylinder and fires after the exhaust port is closed, how is this possible?????

What you are saying is that the burnt charge be pushed out by air charge, I am confused.

IN order for that to happen the charge would fire prior to the piston clearing the exhaust port.

Just trying to understand how you could do this and still have a supercharging effect and "a pipe".

I can see it with fuel injection(inject the fuel below the cylinder), but not direct injection.

I am no engineer, just trying to wrap my head around it.
colintrax
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9/15/2015 3:32pm
colintrax wrote:
Same as a thumper
BobPA wrote:
False, they still draw air via ports from the crankcase, like a traditional carb engine.
How do you know?
ando
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9/15/2015 5:03pm
Crush wrote:
Do outboard motors have to worry about weight though or CC for CC performance? Two strokes booted four strokes because they were light, made more power...
Do outboard motors have to worry about weight though or CC for CC performance?

Two strokes booted four strokes because they were light, made more power etc...

Four strokes booted two strokes because they closed the weight gap and with their CC advantage, power and rideability was way up on two strokes.

If two stroke development gets rideability and keeps the lighter weight... maybe it helps. The CC issue is still there though for MX.

I want one for offroad tho!
Weight - yes. It does make a difference on the back of a boat. The latest 4 strokes are within 10% of the weight of the equivalent 2 stroke.

CC-for-CC performance - no, that is not an issue for marine outboards.

As far as rideability goes, I'm of the opinion that no amount of playing around with capacity is going to make a current two stroke as good as a four stroke. I just don't believe there is a magical capacity that hits the spot. Unless the technology changes then nothing else will change.

Maybe DI two strokes will change that, but then you start paying penalties in weight, complexity and cost - the key things that still make a two stroke somewhat competitive.

Every design has it's advantages and limitations. It's bit like a turbine engine - the best power-to-weight ratio of any internal combustion engine (hence their use on aircraft) but horribly inefficient, and with very high shaft speeds, so they are useless as a vehicle engine.
BobPA
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9/15/2015 5:18pm
I just got back from LS fest. I have an LS powered race car and a garage full of motors. DI and EFI are two different...
I just got back from LS fest. I have an LS powered race car and a garage full of motors. DI and EFI are two different things. Have you read about the carbon build up problems from the DI systems on the new L86's and LT1's? It isn't as great as you would think. 2000 psi of fuel pressure and $1000 injectors suck. That's why anyone building fast LS engines are sticking with EFI or carbs.
And I have a 12" dick named Frank....
BobPA
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9/15/2015 7:24pm
colintrax wrote:
How do you know?
Because I understand how two strokes operate?

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