TM 4T's...

Ghostrider145
Edited Date/Time 7/31/2015 4:36am
Vital MX,
So who has ridden one or better yet owns one? I think they'll be racing in the AMA very soon. I know the 14's and 15's never touched American Soil. Let's hear some reviews.

Ghost
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ML512
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ML512 7/22/2015 7:59pm
7/22/2015 7:59pm
Ghostrider145 wrote:
Vital MX, So who has ridden one or better yet owns one? I think they'll be racing in the AMA very soon. I know the 14's...
Vital MX,
So who has ridden one or better yet owns one? I think they'll be racing in the AMA very soon. I know the 14's and 15's never touched American Soil. Let's hear some reviews.

Ghost
To race in the AMA nationals, they would have to meet the homologation rules by having 400 units (I believe it's 400, but I'm having a brain-dead evening) available of that model here in the US.
mx836
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mx836 7/22/2015 8:17pm
7/22/2015 8:17pm
There should be an exception for boutique brands that would have a hard time selling that many bikes here in a year.
Berm
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Berm 7/22/2015 8:23pm
7/22/2015 8:23pm
mx836 wrote:
There should be an exception for boutique brands that would have a hard time selling that many bikes here in a year.
How about change it to "sell 400 units" and get rid of the US option. Still works to keep out factory level production bikes.
queen of spodes 7/22/2015 8:26pm
7/22/2015 8:26pm
mx836 wrote:
There should be an exception for boutique brands that would have a hard time selling that many bikes here in a year.
Honda disagrees.

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Ghostrider145 7/22/2015 8:31pm
7/22/2015 8:31pm
I'm pretty sure from what I was told they'll be pushing to race in the U.S.
I sure hope there will be another player in the Game. I think you are correct, it's 400 units in the shores...
Ghost
moto0852
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moto0852 7/22/2015 9:35pm
7/22/2015 9:35pm
How great would that be to add another brand to the series but no...they won't hit the homologation number.
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Johnny Depp 7/22/2015 10:00pm
7/22/2015 10:00pm
I find my Italian '15 Beta 500 RS to be an awesome MX bike....I don't ever expect to see one raced in the pro's.



nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 7/22/2015 10:29pm
7/22/2015 10:29pm
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for the whole global market including 85/125/250/250f/300/450f/530f in MX, enduro, supermoto, rally and flat track models. There's no way they are going to allocate 400 builds of either 250 or 450 MX models all of which would have to be in the USA.

The homo rule keeps small manufacturers from being allowed to compete.
VET176
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VET176 7/22/2015 10:43pm
7/22/2015 10:43pm
nytsmaC wrote:
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for...
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for the whole global market including 85/125/250/250f/300/450f/530f in MX, enduro, supermoto, rally and flat track models. There's no way they are going to allocate 400 builds of either 250 or 450 MX models all of which would have to be in the USA.

The homo rule keeps small manufacturers from being allowed to compete.
Someone please tell me why this homogenized rule is in place?

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cappelmans 7/22/2015 10:49pm
7/22/2015 10:49pm
Ghostrider145 wrote:
Vital MX, So who has ridden one or better yet owns one? I think they'll be racing in the AMA very soon. I know the 14's...
Vital MX,
So who has ridden one or better yet owns one? I think they'll be racing in the AMA very soon. I know the 14's and 15's never touched American Soil. Let's hear some reviews.

Ghost
Good question, I also wondered how they compare against the jap bikes. Very interested how good the current 250f model is with the new placement of the fuel tank and other mass centrilization tricks. Not able to find any reviews online so far.
GuyB
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GuyB 7/22/2015 11:03pm
7/22/2015 11:03pm
VET176 wrote:
Someone please tell me why this homogenized rule is in place?

To prevent overly bulged eyes.
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jeffro503 7/22/2015 11:10pm
7/22/2015 11:10pm
Wait , I though the homologation rule was flexible depending on brand and the size of their specific company? Example , lets say Kawasaki made 10 X more bikes than Yamaha , wouldn't Yamaha have a lower amount of bikes they would need to get homologated?

In the past , I thought that rule helped smaller manufactures like Cannondale , Husenburg , Cagiva , ect?

Kind of think it's a dumb rule , right along side the CC vs CC 2 stroke / 4 stroke bullshit , but whatever.
Starcrossed
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Starcrossed 7/22/2015 11:23pm
7/22/2015 11:23pm Edited Date/Time 7/22/2015 11:28pm
I believe it's because the intention is to have a manufacturers series, as opposed to racing one of a kind bikes made of all unique parts that would be out of reach of the purchasing public. May also be a means of containing the costs of fielding competitive race bikes.
shanes
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shanes 7/22/2015 11:59pm
7/22/2015 11:59pm
i have a TM SMX 450 supermoto bike , really happy with the engine maintenance levels same as KTM there build quality is very very good lots of billet as standard . i also have 2 x 2 stroke 300 TM's one MX one Supermoto again both great bikes , the alloy frame is stiffer than KTM but only takes a session or two to get the feel of it . all mine are 2014 models
the 450


my babies
VET176
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VET176 7/23/2015 12:49am
7/23/2015 12:49am
VET176 wrote:
Someone please tell me why this homogenized rule is in place?

GuyB wrote:
To prevent overly bulged eyes.
Huh? I thought fluoride in the water was for that? Tongue


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Lightning78 7/23/2015 1:44am
7/23/2015 1:44am
nytsmaC wrote:
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for...
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for the whole global market including 85/125/250/250f/300/450f/530f in MX, enduro, supermoto, rally and flat track models. There's no way they are going to allocate 400 builds of either 250 or 450 MX models all of which would have to be in the USA.

The homo rule keeps small manufacturers from being allowed to compete.
Like Collusion?
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 7/23/2015 2:38am
7/23/2015 2:38am
nytsmaC wrote:
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for...
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for the whole global market including 85/125/250/250f/300/450f/530f in MX, enduro, supermoto, rally and flat track models. There's no way they are going to allocate 400 builds of either 250 or 450 MX models all of which would have to be in the USA.

The homo rule keeps small manufacturers from being allowed to compete.
Lightning78 wrote:
Like Collusion?
No tinfoil hat here, I just think the small manufacturers fall victim to a rule that was made without them being taken into consideration. It could use an amendment, IMHO.
Ghostrider145 7/23/2015 3:56am
7/23/2015 3:56am
Shane, very nice! Even though I've seen those before it never gets old.
2000 units globally? I guess it's time for the little factory to start working some weekends and 12 hour days, just so we get another brand in MX/SX...

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jock 7/23/2015 4:02am
7/23/2015 4:02am
nytsmaC wrote:
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for...
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for the whole global market including 85/125/250/250f/300/450f/530f in MX, enduro, supermoto, rally and flat track models. There's no way they are going to allocate 400 builds of either 250 or 450 MX models all of which would have to be in the USA.

The homo rule keeps small manufacturers from being allowed to compete.
Lightning78 wrote:
Like Collusion?
nytsmaC wrote:
No tinfoil hat here, I just think the small manufacturers fall victim to a rule that was made without them being taken into consideration. It could...
No tinfoil hat here, I just think the small manufacturers fall victim to a rule that was made without them being taken into consideration. It could use an amendment, IMHO.
It could, but the big 4 will not allow it. Sad
MR. X
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MR. X 7/23/2015 4:05am
7/23/2015 4:05am
They should change the rule to have some kind of ratio per overall bike sales per mfg.
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shanes 7/23/2015 6:35am
7/23/2015 6:35am
seams stupid how TM can run in the world championships and every other championship it wants to apart from USA . TM is a small business that puts a lot back into the sport they run a factory team in both world supermoto and mx1 yet somebody can't buy one and race in AMA .

rules need to be changed , like they have to pay so much to have a bike aloud to enter taking entire away from smaller teams that may want to run a current 2 stroke or TM etc .

AMA needs to take not of the world champs and run the 2 stroke {they call it euros} as a starter series give the kids a chance to learn the tracks at 14 on a 125 and privateers a chance to run 250-300 2 strokes that don't want a 10,000 dollar engine going bang after 10 hours if they last that long
aFACEdismembered 7/23/2015 9:10am
7/23/2015 9:10am
MR. X wrote:
They should change the rule to have some kind of ratio per overall bike sales per mfg.
Yep. I was going to say that. Take average sales of the Jap bikes and find the ration for the homologation rule. Then take previous years sales for small brands and apply the ratio accordingly. Once a small brand gets to a certain sales number (pick one), the rule goes back to current homologation number.
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jeffro503 7/23/2015 9:20am
7/23/2015 9:20am
The big 4 may not like it , but for the sake of the sport itself the rule should change. Give the TM guys a year or two break on the rule , introduce them into SX and MX with a couple descent riders for exposure , and who know? Let people see the bikes and they could possibly have them legally homologated.

There are things in this sport that need to be changed. This is one of them , along with making a legal CC vs CC rule with the 2/4 strokes. Don't even get me started on the whole " killing off the 125 class " ( which imho was the most important class for our youth barr none!)

Ok I'm done. Don't wanna bring myself down before this awesome weekend of racing.
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Motofinne 7/23/2015 9:31am
7/23/2015 9:31am Edited Date/Time 7/23/2015 9:32am
jeffro503 wrote:
The big 4 may not like it , but for the sake of the sport itself the rule should change. Give the TM guys a year...
The big 4 may not like it , but for the sake of the sport itself the rule should change. Give the TM guys a year or two break on the rule , introduce them into SX and MX with a couple descent riders for exposure , and who know? Let people see the bikes and they could possibly have them legally homologated.

There are things in this sport that need to be changed. This is one of them , along with making a legal CC vs CC rule with the 2/4 strokes. Don't even get me started on the whole " killing off the 125 class " ( which imho was the most important class for our youth barr none!)

Ok I'm done. Don't wanna bring myself down before this awesome weekend of racing.
I agree with you, IF TM would be able to run a Factory 450 team in US they would. At least i think they would. That would benefit everybody.

And USA would benefit of a similar series like EMX125, EMX250 and EMX300. Especially the 125 series. I think that the EMX series are the best ways for young future stars to develop their skills and racecraft because of the tracks and the schedule.

But changing these things would be really difficult.
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731chopper 7/23/2015 9:33am
7/23/2015 9:33am
If they can't sell more than 400 bikes, how can they afford to have a team? I'm not trying to be rude, I am genuinely curious about the finances. I once calculated total bikes sales for one of the big 4 in a given year multiplied by what I figured would be their wholesale price to a dealer and subtracted rider salaries alone and could not get the numbers to get even close to breaking even, let alone make a profit.
HD1200
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HD1200 7/23/2015 10:55am
7/23/2015 10:55am
nytsmaC wrote:
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for...
It won't happen unless they get the rules changed or use the one year works exemption rule. They make less than 2000 bikes per year for the whole global market including 85/125/250/250f/300/450f/530f in MX, enduro, supermoto, rally and flat track models. There's no way they are going to allocate 400 builds of either 250 or 450 MX models all of which would have to be in the USA.

The homo rule keeps small manufacturers from being allowed to compete.
And that's why they call it the homo rule, because it's gay! Just saying
Ghostrider145 7/23/2015 2:44pm
7/23/2015 2:44pm
Some very valid points being made.
Love the Beta's also.
I'm really shocked there are not more Youtube videos on the new models.
I thought for sure our European brothers would be all over that.
TM could really use online videos to showcase their stuff.
Ghost
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Johnny Depp 7/23/2015 3:11pm
7/23/2015 3:11pm
Not to hog the TM 4t thread, but Beta is a Italian boutique brand too.

Here's a recent video about 7 minutes with some clear track at Murphy's MX Red Rock TX

nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 7/23/2015 3:24pm
7/23/2015 3:24pm
731chopper wrote:
If they can't sell more than 400 bikes, how can they afford to have a team? I'm not trying to be rude, I am genuinely curious...
If they can't sell more than 400 bikes, how can they afford to have a team? I'm not trying to be rude, I am genuinely curious about the finances. I once calculated total bikes sales for one of the big 4 in a given year multiplied by what I figured would be their wholesale price to a dealer and subtracted rider salaries alone and could not get the numbers to get even close to breaking even, let alone make a profit.
The company is crazy passionate about racing, and really the only reason they even sell motorcycles is to fund their racing efforts. Sometimes I wonder if they would even sell bikes if it weren't for this reason. If you notice they race everything on 2 wheels.. Rally bikes, Supermoto, WEC, MXGP, and even a Moto3 bike. If they were allowed to compete in the US MX Nationals I wouldn't be surprised if they had a factory racing team over here. They definitely focus a lot more on the European market but the US market is huge, and with their new importer making waves I could see them taking an interest.

Another cool thing about TM is if you look at their 'factory' bikes, they are pretty much 100% stock, same as what you buy from them, competing against full works equipment of the bigger manufacturers. This year's 'works' bike is next year's production bike. They often look the unchanged on the outside but any internal changes that the race team develops and is proven makes it into production shortly after.

They sell a shit ton of cart engines, which is their real bread and butter, and it helps to fund their racing teams probably a lot more than the bikes ever will. It seems like a crazy way of doing business but that's passionate Italians for you, they're just going for it.
731chopper
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731chopper 7/23/2015 3:34pm
7/23/2015 3:34pm
nytsmaC wrote:
The company is crazy passionate about racing, and really the only reason they even sell motorcycles is to fund their racing efforts. Sometimes I wonder if...
The company is crazy passionate about racing, and really the only reason they even sell motorcycles is to fund their racing efforts. Sometimes I wonder if they would even sell bikes if it weren't for this reason. If you notice they race everything on 2 wheels.. Rally bikes, Supermoto, WEC, MXGP, and even a Moto3 bike. If they were allowed to compete in the US MX Nationals I wouldn't be surprised if they had a factory racing team over here. They definitely focus a lot more on the European market but the US market is huge, and with their new importer making waves I could see them taking an interest.

Another cool thing about TM is if you look at their 'factory' bikes, they are pretty much 100% stock, same as what you buy from them, competing against full works equipment of the bigger manufacturers. This year's 'works' bike is next year's production bike. They often look the unchanged on the outside but any internal changes that the race team develops and is proven makes it into production shortly after.

They sell a shit ton of cart engines, which is their real bread and butter, and it helps to fund their racing teams probably a lot more than the bikes ever will. It seems like a crazy way of doing business but that's passionate Italians for you, they're just going for it.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that they are trick bikes. I remember in 2000 when the new '01 KX85 was coming out my dad asked me if there was a different 80 I'd rather have. I saw a kid with a TM at Mossier Valley one night and thought it was the coolest looking bike I'd ever seen. I ended up with the Kawi though because that was expensive enough for my old man.

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