Carbon fiber rims.

TX24
Posts
2767
Joined
5/7/2010
Location
San Antonio, TX US
6/8/2015 8:28am
Love my carbon fiber mtb 29er rims, same weight as a race rim but without the flex.[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/06/14/24774/s1200_blue_carbon_sultan_003.jpg[/img]
Love my carbon fiber mtb 29er rims, same weight as a race rim but without the flex.
I have a set of those, haven't got to play with them much yet.
.kyle
Posts
469
Joined
6/5/2011
Location
GB
6/8/2015 10:41am
Metal bends and warps, carbon fiber explodes. I know what I want underneath me when I over jump something.
.kyle wrote:
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless. You may want to look at...
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless.

You may want to look at one of the DH races where Aaron Gwin (I beleive it was) managed to finish a race despite a tyre coming off one of his wheels....and yes, he was running carbon rims! The carbon rim stayed in tact. So there is clearly nothing to worry about when it comes to carbon rims.
mx836 wrote:
There is clearly nothing to worry about because Aaron Gwin finished a couple minute run on a 30 pound downhill bike while riding on the rim...
There is clearly nothing to worry about because Aaron Gwin finished a couple minute run on a 30 pound downhill bike while riding on the rim. Hmmm.... not good enough for me.
Not good enough for you? You mean you're better than Aaron Gwin?! I jest, of course.

There will be many examples of aluminium rims grenading, yet people don't seem to have any issue with that. I should imagine that once graphene is commercially viable, then carbon fiber parts will be even more commonplace.

This is not aimed at you mx836, but I do genuinely wonder where so much misinformation and worry about carbon parts has come from.
.kyle
Posts
469
Joined
6/5/2011
Location
GB
6/8/2015 10:48am
Metal bends and warps, carbon fiber explodes. I know what I want underneath me when I over jump something.
.kyle wrote:
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless. You may want to look at...
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless.

You may want to look at one of the DH races where Aaron Gwin (I beleive it was) managed to finish a race despite a tyre coming off one of his wheels....and yes, he was running carbon rims! The carbon rim stayed in tact. So there is clearly nothing to worry about when it comes to carbon rims.
seth505 wrote:
They don't have the same properties and aluminum rims do give/bend, so I don't really think the comment is pointless. Most of my friends run carbon...
They don't have the same properties and aluminum rims do give/bend, so I don't really think the comment is pointless. Most of my friends run carbon rims with good results but one did have one explode while riding some rather ungnarly stuff. Yes, well built carbon wheels with withstand a bunch of abuse in a general sense.
In my mind I was trying to get across something along the lines of; if an ally rim gets destroyed then a carbon one may do as well, in which case you're probably not going to care what material the rim was made from. lol.
Carbon could flex more meaning it could survive something aluminium may not. It all depends on how well the part has been designed and what the layup of the carbon is. As well as the resin.

I would love to see more companies offer carbon rims. As far as I know, Alpina is the only one and even then they're a mix of ally with a carbon skin.

I'd run carbon rims on my MTB is they weren't so damn expensive!!
seth505
Posts
10188
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
6/8/2015 10:48am
kyle is right, there is a lot of ignorance/misinformation but the return on investment just isn't there for me personally. For example, I am on my 3rd rear wheel in the last year (stans Flow wheels) and it cost me less than 100 each time for new rim to rebuild. My buddies that run carbon wheels have like a 200-300 crash replacement cost when they destroy one.

The Shop

mx836
Posts
5577
Joined
4/2/2008
Location
; BF
6/8/2015 10:50am
.kyle wrote:
Not good enough for you? You mean you're better than Aaron Gwin?! I jest, of course. There will be many examples of aluminium rims grenading, yet...
Not good enough for you? You mean you're better than Aaron Gwin?! I jest, of course.

There will be many examples of aluminium rims grenading, yet people don't seem to have any issue with that. I should imagine that once graphene is commercially viable, then carbon fiber parts will be even more commonplace.

This is not aimed at you mx836, but I do genuinely wonder where so much misinformation and worry about carbon parts has come from.
I'm not better than Aaron Gwin, but Aaron Gwin isn't jumping 130' on a 250 pound motorcycle. I think a mtb bicycle rim is a shitty comparison of the strength required for a motocross bike. Also, I have exploded aluminum rims before, but they remained mostly in tact and didn't shank anybody or myself.
.kyle
Posts
469
Joined
6/5/2011
Location
GB
6/8/2015 11:09am
It's not a shitty example. An MTB rim is effectively a thinner, weaker version of an MX rim. They are built to serve the bikes they go with be it ally or carbon. A rim for an mx bike would be built stronger. (It's just the carbon version would be stronger and lighter).

Did you run anybody over with your exploded ally rim? If not, then you wouldn't have shanked anybody with a carbon one, either.


I'm not going to comment any further because there is too much misinformation to try and debate with. The simplest way to leave it is by saying those people who fear carbon parts, that's fine, stick to metal. I for one love carbon fiber and would happily use it whenever possible.
Dtat720
Posts
1588
Joined
2/20/2015
Location
Flowood, MS US
6/8/2015 11:15am
We tested a few versions in bmx year before last. We liked the aero design the best, as it allowed for shorter spoke lengths and a more rigid build, helps out of the gate with torque transfer. Data backed that up with 30' times being .2-.35 quicker on the carbon rims. Overall lap times were dang near equal, most all were equal with a random tenth here and there.

What we didnt like, and why we chose to go a different route, feedback. The carbon rims were loud on the track noise wise, very loud. Also track feedback. They vibrated everything on the track through the fork and handlebars right to your wrists. Just something we couldnt get past, it was like the bmx version of arm pump in your wrists. Come off the track and people with no wrist issues felt like arthritis was creeping.
endurox
Posts
2090
Joined
3/22/2014
Location
Garden City, ID US
6/8/2015 11:21am
seth505 wrote:
kyle is right, there is a lot of ignorance/misinformation but the return on investment just isn't there for me personally. For example, I am on my...
kyle is right, there is a lot of ignorance/misinformation but the return on investment just isn't there for me personally. For example, I am on my 3rd rear wheel in the last year (stans Flow wheels) and it cost me less than 100 each time for new rim to rebuild. My buddies that run carbon wheels have like a 200-300 crash replacement cost when they destroy one.
LB rims are 185$ and it takes me as a slow wheel builder 2 hours to build up. I have bent stans rims as well as mavic, no issues with the carbon. Carbon handlebars will be next to be accepted in MX IMO
The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI US
6/8/2015 12:21pm
If they are ready for prime time your friends could ship them to the MXA Wrecking Crew. Let me know if you need an address.

BTW there is a new tire manufacturer getting ready to launch that will be a game changer.
wydopen
Posts
1306
Joined
8/17/2011
Location
805, CA US
6/8/2015 12:54pm Edited Date/Time 6/8/2015 12:57pm
.kyle wrote:
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless. You may want to look at...
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless.

You may want to look at one of the DH races where Aaron Gwin (I beleive it was) managed to finish a race despite a tyre coming off one of his wheels....and yes, he was running carbon rims! The carbon rim stayed in tact. So there is clearly nothing to worry about when it comes to carbon rims.
Gwin wasnt on carbon rims...He runs DT Swiss ex471's which arnt carbon...

Ive had 4 sets of carbon mtb rims and have broken the rear of every one...aluminum rims bend and flatspot when you hit a rock..carbon cracks....I actually prefer the feel of an aluminum rim too..carbon transmits allot more feedback..
Jeff alessi
Posts
915
Joined
10/28/2011
Location
Victorville, CA US
6/8/2015 12:57pm
Carbon rims deflect. There's a reason every sport uses the rim they use, carbon has no flex. Imagine riding a hardpack track with little bumps everywhere your bike would be so unbelievably aggressive u wouldn't make a lap. Watch a flat track racer who's fight for millionths of seconds hit a corner, imagine if he had carbon rims that gave him 5 extra hp down the strait... Why doesn't he use them... Because the minute he hit a small tiny square edge he would be spit off the bike flying backward into hopefully a thousand haybails. Plus that bullshit 5 horsepower to the wheel line is so bad for advertisement, I would rather use magnets around my balls then that. atleast magnets make u faster Laughing
seth505
Posts
10188
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
6/8/2015 1:04pm
seth505 wrote:
kyle is right, there is a lot of ignorance/misinformation but the return on investment just isn't there for me personally. For example, I am on my...
kyle is right, there is a lot of ignorance/misinformation but the return on investment just isn't there for me personally. For example, I am on my 3rd rear wheel in the last year (stans Flow wheels) and it cost me less than 100 each time for new rim to rebuild. My buddies that run carbon wheels have like a 200-300 crash replacement cost when they destroy one.
endurox wrote:
LB rims are 185$ and it takes me as a slow wheel builder 2 hours to build up. I have bent stans rims as well as...
LB rims are 185$ and it takes me as a slow wheel builder 2 hours to build up. I have bent stans rims as well as mavic, no issues with the carbon. Carbon handlebars will be next to be accepted in MX IMO
Right on, what kind of riding do you do? If it s racing/pure xc then I would agree with you why not for $185. For enduro/lots of jumping I am still on the fence, I kind of like my wheels to flex for reasons Jeff Alessi mentioned (I don't put magnets on my balls haha)
Frodad78
Posts
2157
Joined
1/11/2012
Location
TX US
6/8/2015 1:05pm
Carbon rims deflect. There's a reason every sport uses the rim they use, carbon has no flex. Imagine riding a hardpack track with little bumps everywhere...
Carbon rims deflect. There's a reason every sport uses the rim they use, carbon has no flex. Imagine riding a hardpack track with little bumps everywhere your bike would be so unbelievably aggressive u wouldn't make a lap. Watch a flat track racer who's fight for millionths of seconds hit a corner, imagine if he had carbon rims that gave him 5 extra hp down the strait... Why doesn't he use them... Because the minute he hit a small tiny square edge he would be spit off the bike flying backward into hopefully a thousand haybails. Plus that bullshit 5 horsepower to the wheel line is so bad for advertisement, I would rather use magnets around my balls then that. atleast magnets make u faster Laughing
hahaha...that last part cracked me up lol
.kyle
Posts
469
Joined
6/5/2011
Location
GB
6/8/2015 2:06pm
.kyle wrote:
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless. You may want to look at...
An impact that would destroy a (well built) carbon rim would destroy a metal rim. So your comment is pointless.

You may want to look at one of the DH races where Aaron Gwin (I beleive it was) managed to finish a race despite a tyre coming off one of his wheels....and yes, he was running carbon rims! The carbon rim stayed in tact. So there is clearly nothing to worry about when it comes to carbon rims.
wydopen wrote:
Gwin wasnt on carbon rims...He runs DT Swiss ex471's which arnt carbon... Ive had 4 sets of carbon mtb rims and have broken the rear of...
Gwin wasnt on carbon rims...He runs DT Swiss ex471's which arnt carbon...

Ive had 4 sets of carbon mtb rims and have broken the rear of every one...aluminum rims bend and flatspot when you hit a rock..carbon cracks....I actually prefer the feel of an aluminum rim too..carbon transmits allot more feedback..
I knew he used DT Swiss wheels, but for some reason thought they were carbon. My bad! I love DT Swiss wheels, but don't love the price tag.
endurox
Posts
2090
Joined
3/22/2014
Location
Garden City, ID US
6/8/2015 3:07pm
seth505 wrote:
kyle is right, there is a lot of ignorance/misinformation but the return on investment just isn't there for me personally. For example, I am on my...
kyle is right, there is a lot of ignorance/misinformation but the return on investment just isn't there for me personally. For example, I am on my 3rd rear wheel in the last year (stans Flow wheels) and it cost me less than 100 each time for new rim to rebuild. My buddies that run carbon wheels have like a 200-300 crash replacement cost when they destroy one.
endurox wrote:
LB rims are 185$ and it takes me as a slow wheel builder 2 hours to build up. I have bent stans rims as well as...
LB rims are 185$ and it takes me as a slow wheel builder 2 hours to build up. I have bent stans rims as well as mavic, no issues with the carbon. Carbon handlebars will be next to be accepted in MX IMO
seth505 wrote:
Right on, what kind of riding do you do? If it s racing/pure xc then I would agree with you why not for $185. For enduro/lots...
Right on, what kind of riding do you do? If it s racing/pure xc then I would agree with you why not for $185. For enduro/lots of jumping I am still on the fence, I kind of like my wheels to flex for reasons Jeff Alessi mentioned (I don't put magnets on my balls haha)
I ride trail, xc and some all mountain(sedona). Not much jumping for me. Carbon rim technology has come a long ways in the last 2 years. Now if they would just make a mold that incorporates 6 large carbon spokes as part of the rim to eliminate the steel spokes and have an aluminum shell bonded so a hub could be pressed in, the labor to lace a wheel would be gone. Kind of like the old Tuff bmx wheelsets but higher tech. Probably knock another 100 grams a wheelset off versus the current high tech rim, old school spokes and hub interface.
seth505
Posts
10188
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
6/8/2015 3:15pm
endurox wrote:
I ride trail, xc and some all mountain(sedona). Not much jumping for me. Carbon rim technology has come a long ways in the last 2 years...
I ride trail, xc and some all mountain(sedona). Not much jumping for me. Carbon rim technology has come a long ways in the last 2 years. Now if they would just make a mold that incorporates 6 large carbon spokes as part of the rim to eliminate the steel spokes and have an aluminum shell bonded so a hub could be pressed in, the labor to lace a wheel would be gone. Kind of like the old Tuff bmx wheelsets but higher tech. Probably knock another 100 grams a wheelset off versus the current high tech rim, old school spokes and hub interface.
I've thought about that a lot as far as wheel setup, tough to beat the old school cross spoke design.
Suns_PSD
Posts
989
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Austin, TX US
6/8/2015 4:53pm
I have Enve CF AM wheels on my Bronson and they are great. Damn things cost about $2.5k but honestly the aluminum Mtb wheels that are attempting to be light and just don't hold up really well. They also flex terribly making them inefficient.
The only issue I have is tire mounting. Mtb tires are mounted with little flimsy plastic tools that can't hurt anything. But I'm hell on MX wheels while mounting. Also, I knew I had a front flat last weekend and still did the 90'er cause I was pissed. Also they need to set these wheels up ready to run Tubless as I wouldn't want to drill the hole later like I do on my aluminum wheels.
But I'm curious where this product goes cause if it's proven i'd buy them for my next KTM 2 stroke.
Hank_Thrill
Posts
4652
Joined
9/22/2008
Location
Arlen, TX US
6/8/2015 5:02pm
Rotational weight adds stability. The bike would lose weight and get up to speed quicker, but you would also lose something else...

I'd be interested in hearing what pros thought about them. Those on a Yamaha 450 sound like a bad idea!
6/8/2015 7:23pm
Cashmore wrote:
It can be flexible, as the carbon fiber blades for the helicopters flex A LOT... watch yutube for that. And it always returns to its normal...
It can be flexible, as the carbon fiber blades for the helicopters flex A LOT... watch yutube for that. And it always returns to its normal state as aluminum doesn't. I am 1 foot away from a roll of composite material "carbon fiber" that is pre-preg material. Basically all they do is add extra material to get strength in the spots they would need. This being a wheel the thread, the entire wheel would need the same support through the entire wheel. You cannont compare a seat or frame to a wheel. Yes it would save weight and maybe create some extra HP. But in the event of a major crash the wheel is going to break and have limited give compared to the aluminum wheel that will fold and crumble.
A few years back, MotoGP teams were experimenting with CF wheels. As I understand it, the failures were catastrophic, and there was no warning as to when the wheels would collapse.
the grinch
Posts
19
Joined
1/11/2013
Location
San Francisco, CA US
6/8/2015 9:37pm
A few years back, MotoGP teams were experimenting with CF wheels. As I understand it, the failures were catastrophic, and there was no warning as to...
A few years back, MotoGP teams were experimenting with CF wheels. As I understand it, the failures were catastrophic, and there was no warning as to when the wheels would collapse.



You mean like this?
6/9/2015 12:59am
A few years back, MotoGP teams were experimenting with CF wheels. As I understand it, the failures were catastrophic, and there was no warning as to...
A few years back, MotoGP teams were experimenting with CF wheels. As I understand it, the failures were catastrophic, and there was no warning as to when the wheels would collapse.
the grinch wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/06/08/94000/s1200_CarbonFiberWheelWSBK_zpsb050e0aa.jpg[/img] You mean like this?



You mean like this?
Ummm...ya...something like that. That makes me cringe right there....
Mikeyam187
Posts
112
Joined
3/29/2011
Location
Las Vegas, NV US
6/9/2015 2:13am Edited Date/Time 6/9/2015 2:14am
Carbon fiber and the likes, are far too brittle for certain applications and I'd say rims are definitely one of them. I have worked in the aerospace industry as an inspector, since 1982 and have seen lots of great uses for it...do not compare rotor blades to wheels, they are not under the same stresses.
shakazulu12
Posts
12
Joined
5/13/2015
Location
Portland, OR US
6/9/2015 8:50am
A few years back, MotoGP teams were experimenting with CF wheels. As I understand it, the failures were catastrophic, and there was no warning as to...
A few years back, MotoGP teams were experimenting with CF wheels. As I understand it, the failures were catastrophic, and there was no warning as to when the wheels would collapse.
the grinch wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/06/08/94000/s1200_CarbonFiberWheelWSBK_zpsb050e0aa.jpg[/img] You mean like this?



You mean like this?
That's a World Superbike, not Moto GP. It was also a Magnesium wheel and not carbon. WSBK mandated aluminium wheels the season after that one.
Ebs
Posts
847
Joined
6/1/2014
Location
MI US
6/9/2015 9:42am
The short of it is: If it's engineered correctly, it will work.
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
6/9/2015 11:08am
Carbon fiber parts are great for some applications, not so much for others. I have carbon fiber rims and hubs on my road
bicycle and they are excellent for that use (smooth paved roads). I wouldn't consider putting CF rims on my MTB because
the possibility of failure is greater (and with more catastrophic results), than the same wheel made of Aluminum.

The AV8Bs have a CF wing box structure, again light weight and strong. Back when the jets were undergoing suitability
testing, a mechanic dropped a wrench on the box during routine maintenance creating a stress fracture below the surface.
That fracture resulted in a catastrophic in flight failure and the loss of the airframe. After that, all tools used to work on the
AV8s were rubber coated and any "drops" had to be reported, the spot noted and an intensive NDI performed. This was
back in the 80s and CF was just getting started in aviation. I'm sure it's a lot better today, though I have no desire to fly the
B787, a CF aircraft that has been repeatedly grounded due to stress fractures.

F1 and other race teams that use a lot of CF, have intense inspection programs and replace the parts with little run time as a
preventative measure. CF does not like vibration or impacts which is why CF exhaust cans are great for the factory teams that
get them for free and replace them every weekend, but not so much for the privateer that has to shell out big bucks for his own.

IMO, CF MX rims made with the right "alloy", maybe something like carbotanium or carbon fiber reinforced polymers, may be
able to perform at the same level as Aluminum if not better. The trick is to find the right combination, get the cost down and
reliability up.

dogger
TeamGreen
Posts
36958
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
6/9/2015 12:10pm
Carbon can do any and all the things that're discussed in here.

Much of the carbon parts discussed in here weren't/aren't necesarily designed to a performance requirement...they're often designed to a price-point or with too much consideration to cost.

Example: made a part for one of the teams. A part that's made out of other materials by the OEMs & after-market and Is available in C/F by a few companies that simply replicated an aluminum part. This team/company...redesigned the whole damn thing and utilized their engineer...who designed it to be made from C/F...& it s bullet proof.

It's a $300 part versus $50-$100 for the Off The Shelf parts.
CR250Rider
Posts
6706
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Moses Lake, WA US
6/9/2015 12:23pm
Stupid question: Could you weave in a layer of your favorite metal into the cf like how concrete is reinforced to make it better ?
.kyle
Posts
469
Joined
6/5/2011
Location
GB
6/9/2015 12:38pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Stupid question: Could you weave in a layer of your favorite metal into the cf like how concrete is reinforced to make it better ?
I believe Lamborghini had this done using titanium - carbotanium. However, I'm sure I read that it wasn't all that useful.

You'd be better off reinforcing the carbon with CNT's or (when it becomes commercially available) Graphene.
TeamGreen
Posts
36958
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
6/9/2015 12:39pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Stupid question: Could you weave in a layer of your favorite metal into the cf like how concrete is reinforced to make it better ?
Metal-fibers or you could co-laminate an alloy substrate or stiffeners; but, that's likely to be the opposite of what you'd want to do.

Uni-Dirsctional fibers in the hoop and wrap some other (woven?) materials radially to achieve the flex and absorption you desire.
Slosh 112
Posts
1156
Joined
3/31/2014
Location
Mackay QLD AU
6/9/2015 12:43pm
Yes, Pagani uses a process that weaves thin titanium strands into the Carbon fibre.Carbotanium.

Post a reply to: Carbon fiber rims.

The Latest