Ask The MXperts: What's Holding Up Fuel Injected TWO-STROKES?

h&m_cycle
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Edited Date/Time 6/4/2015 7:51am
From MXA... something besides Tomac... http://motocrossactionmag.com/news/ask-the-mxperts-whats-holding-up-fue…

http://motocrossactionmag.com/news/godspeed-gilles-vaillancourt-1940-20…

A pioneer in modern motorcycle suspension development, Gilles Vaillancourt in the 1970s developed off-road motorcycle shocks that featured a revolutionary multi-stage damping system. The shocks were a huge success, and his efforts grew into the legendary Works Performance powerhouse in the off-road world
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resetjet
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6/3/2015 3:11pm
So tired of hearing about this crap.......Anyone who thinks a FI or DI 2 stroke engine is gonna change the world needs a talking to.

njracer46
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6/3/2015 3:13pm
I completely agree with them, I don't want it. The reason people still love 2 strokes is because they're simple, at least that's why I went back to them in years past. I've never had a problem with bogging compared to the 4 strokes I've had. But hey I also don't want air forks, if ktm brings them to into production in the US I will jump ship to Yamaha, I have no brand loyally. If you offer what I want then I will buy from you. I'll be running out of options soon enough and have to compromise.
newmann
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6/3/2015 3:15pm
I like how they always mention that it will add a couple hundred to the price. Newsflash, they already have added a couple hundred to the cost with little to no advancements. They keep going up in price regardless, just keeping them below the cost of a four stroke. Adding FI, there will still be 150 less parts in the 2 smoke.

I can't imagine a 144cc 2 stroke running much better than a current KTM anyway.

The Shop

Uncle Tony
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6/3/2015 3:19pm
I'm a two stroke die hard, I'm under no illusion they will never come back in this country, fuel injected or normally aspirated
h&m_cycle
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6/3/2015 3:24pm
this comes up all the time, just their view...
FI2T
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6/3/2015 5:01pm
I've had one off FI kit and now run APT carbs on my YZ345 and my 465 Banshee (don't judge me I grew up on quads). The EFI was ok, the smart carbs are lighter and perform amazing. EFI could be a great thing but the smartcarbs are light and so far I see no need for it based on how they work. My plugs look perfect. How many average Joe's think 2strokes are junk cause they run them fat or lean and burn them down?
Ebs
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6/3/2015 5:08pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2015 5:08pm
...because it only takes a room temp IQ to get a two-stroke running nice and crisp.

Not that I'm against advances in engineering technology or anything.
r.sal923
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6/3/2015 5:13pm
resetjet wrote:
So tired of hearing about this crap.......Anyone who thinks a FI or DI 2 stroke engine is gonna change the world needs a talking to.

With a comment like that you might make the vitalmx server crash
EastFlorida
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6/3/2015 5:17pm
Can't imagine my 300 XC being much better than it is (engine wise)... Don't need to spend more, it's great already...
MR. X
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6/3/2015 5:56pm
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower then the older carbed models.
6/3/2015 6:04pm
MR. X wrote:
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower...
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower then the older carbed models.
Its just nicer with the sleds not having to rejet them in the winter with temp changes
Joko
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Fantasy
6/3/2015 6:06pm
FI2T wrote:
I've had one off FI kit and now run APT carbs on my YZ345 and my 465 Banshee (don't judge me I grew up on quads)...
I've had one off FI kit and now run APT carbs on my YZ345 and my 465 Banshee (don't judge me I grew up on quads). The EFI was ok, the smart carbs are lighter and perform amazing. EFI could be a great thing but the smartcarbs are light and so far I see no need for it based on how they work. My plugs look perfect. How many average Joe's think 2strokes are junk cause they run them fat or lean and burn them down?
FI2T,
How does your YZ345 run? Does it pull into the top end with falling off? Are you able to drop any teeth off the rear sprocket?
MR. X
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6/3/2015 6:09pm
Its just nicer with the sleds not having to rejet them in the winter with temp changes
Tempaflow ,i think they are good for around plus or minus 4 jet sizes.
h&m_cycle
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6/3/2015 7:42pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2015 7:44pm
Not important anyway... The new Don Leib thread will be at least a 10 pager Woohoo
FI2T
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6/3/2015 8:15pm
Joko wrote:
FI2T, How does your YZ345 run? Does it pull into the top end with falling off? Are you able to drop any teeth off the rear...
FI2T,
How does your YZ345 run? Does it pull into the top end with falling off? Are you able to drop any teeth off the rear sprocket?
It is so dang snappy down low and in the midrange, but it is absolutely worthless on top. My ported and tweeked yz250 runs circles around it. Feels like a 125 on the pipe. Tested at 175lbs compression, leak down was good, adjusted power valve and the plug looks perfect. Eddie has been cool he said he is willing to work on the cylinder. The only other thing I can think of is the pipe is choking the motor. I'm going to go hit a dyno with it and my 250 before I send the cylinder back to Eddie. He sounds pretty confident in the kit and I have seen his big bore 250r motors run....they are monsters. I'm hopeful we can get it ripping.
Berm
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6/3/2015 9:27pm
MR. X wrote:
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower...
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower then the older carbed models.
Not to mention it is about a $3,000 upgrade to go from the 600 ski-doo carb engine to the 600 di-efi setup.
BobPA
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6/3/2015 9:53pm
One other small issue is that premix in a DI setup will not provide sufficient lubrication to the crank. there will have to be a secondary oil system to provide oil to the crank..adding more weight and complexity.
JW381
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6/3/2015 10:22pm
A carb adds a level of customization that is simple and relatively safe. Granted I'm still learning, that's better than not being able to learn/fix problems at all.

No one should buy a dirtbike with no intention of maintaining it themselves, at least the basics.
Tony Grove
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6/3/2015 10:45pm
MR. X wrote:
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower...
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower then the older carbed models.
Thats false and always has been.
In both sleds and outboards for boats.

The reasons are beyond it being "Jetted" Correctly.

And the mileage, ah,not at WFO. See above sentence.
Tony Grove
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6/3/2015 10:51pm
BobPA wrote:
One other small issue is that premix in a DI setup will not provide sufficient lubrication to the crank. there will have to be a secondary...
One other small issue is that premix in a DI setup will not provide sufficient lubrication to the crank. there will have to be a secondary oil system to provide oil to the crank..adding more weight and complexity.
DI isnt the best setup anyway, and its more dangerous with the fuel pressures needed.

Fuji cough Liberty and Suzukis, cough Cats new system is just better.

There isnt much wrong with Carbs, but carbs need better Tech.

I enter.



Tony Grove
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6/3/2015 10:58pm
MR. X wrote:
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower...
DI 2 strokes have been around in snowmobiles for awhile now , their only advantage is better fuel mileage , they don't make any more horsepower then the older carbed models.
Its just nicer with the sleds not having to rejet them in the winter with temp changes
But the average guy doesnt have to. Its not that critical with even an 80 degree change from -40 to 40 above. Unless its jetted for 40 above all year. LOL

The guy that benefits is some clown that tries to take his 121" slednecks wannabe sled from MN to the Rockies at 12,000 feet and its like the choke is on.
Thats why they put that nice little sticker in there with clutch and jetting recommendations for elevation.
c_dub
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6/4/2015 12:20am
FI2T wrote:
I've had one off FI kit and now run APT carbs on my YZ345 and my 465 Banshee (don't judge me I grew up on quads)...
I've had one off FI kit and now run APT carbs on my YZ345 and my 465 Banshee (don't judge me I grew up on quads). The EFI was ok, the smart carbs are lighter and perform amazing. EFI could be a great thing but the smartcarbs are light and so far I see no need for it based on how they work. My plugs look perfect. How many average Joe's think 2strokes are junk cause they run them fat or lean and burn them down?
Exactly FI2T! I've been saying as much for awhile now as well. Put a metering rod carb (APT/Lectron...is there more?) and be done with it. Basically all the advantages of DI without the complexity and cost. Seems like a win/win to me and can't for the life of me figure out why some manufacturer hasn't bought one of those guys out. And started using them on their production 2 strokes.
Tony Grove
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6/4/2015 1:00am
Guys, the point of EFI on other machines like boats and sleds is 95% for emissions, and the rest to keep idiots from burning down their rigs and causing warranty work.
Wrong jetting, shitty gas, you name it, same as cars.

And its easier to sell an idiot something that starts by pulling a rope or turning a key to start than to teach some modern age total idiot how to pull a choke lever to start a cold engine.
Thats why Grandpa can fire up a Honda generator, but 12 year old billy would never get it to start cold.............Whats a choke?

Hell now, they have programmed in Break in Mixtures for fuel and oil ratios for a set # of hours as well. Again, because modern age idiots cant figure out how to add a quart of oil to the first tank(If the dealer didn't do it for you.)

It just so happens They have them burning so clean now that they are cleaner than a comparable HP 4 stroke. And those segments, weight is a major factor in performance and a heavy four stroke just doesn't work as well, by a LONG Shot.

It also happened that they could get even more performance out of a simple throttle body injection of 25 years ago, and now have improved on that immensely as far as clean burn. Again, mostly to keep beating CARB emissions standards.

Honda went to 4 stroke bikes to beat the emissions crunch. Mostly because they knew that most race bikes never see a track.
Slosh 112
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6/4/2015 2:58am
resetjet wrote:
So tired of hearing about this crap.......Anyone who thinks a FI or DI 2 stroke engine is gonna change the world needs a talking to.

Haha, all a carby does is mix fuel and air BEFORE it gets to the engine, Fuel injection does the same thing its got nothing to do with what sort of configuration the engine is built around its got everything to do with how much money a brand is willing to tip into something to make it competitive.

FACT, more money is to be made off of spare parts sales on a 4 stroke engine, but it costs more to make them and keep them going and the weekend warrior is beginning to realise this.
FACT, Fuel injection will be the next thing for two strokes, as it was for 4 strokes, don't kid yourself into thinking that the 2 stroke is dead, KTM has never stopped developing their 2 stroke range and the offroad scene is flooded with two strokes from every european manufacturer.
FACT, Direct injection will be the next step in both engine formats.
FACT, KTM is an Austrian brand, Austria is in Europe, the european union has the most stringent emissions laws in the world (Euro4, Euro5) KTM being the primary developer of two strokes will want to continue its dominance of the two stroke market either through the orange bikes or Husqvarna and will want to make them more compliant for the off road market which will soon require Euro5 emissions, and being that typically a well designed fuel injection system is more efficient and than a Carby motor its safe to say that a production FI 2stroke is not far away.
FACT, Motocross four strokes are more competitive than two strokes, look at how quickly they went from trail bikes to SX winners, 2strokes held the crown for so long and the bangers popped up overnight and flogged them. I bet you laughed at the guy riding an XR500 when you smoked him on your CR250, How long until an electric bike thrashes a KX-F down the road?

What are you going to talk about...

As for whats holding them up? Think of how long it took aluminium frames and fuel injection to trickle down from road bikes. Maybe they are waiting to develop the technology through outboards or whatever...
6/4/2015 5:58am
If you put a Lectron on your carb'd two-stroke and actually set it up right, you won't give a shit about EFI. I promise.

croom mx
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6/4/2015 7:04am
Ebs wrote:
...because it only takes a room temp IQ to get a two-stroke running nice and crisp.

Not that I'm against advances in engineering technology or anything.
Yep , you dont need FI. 2 strokes run great anyway.
Tony Grove
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6/4/2015 7:07am
I run the above in the picture, and it's still not as easy as EFI from 1992.
I promise.
And when EFI went batteryless in 1995, it was even simpler.

The whole dirt bike segment is 20 years behind. BNG still sells to the dirt bike crowd.

I remember this certain mag writing that batteryless EFI couldn't work it was too heavy because of the battery weight bla bla bla, before they realized that batteryless EFI was at the time 13 year old technology already in use and OEM making them look completely foolish.

To top it off, the OEM was SUZUKI engines.

In fact, they learned it from a sled forum, and basically copied and pasted information on it way back in 2008 or so.
95 % of these dirt bike mags 2 stroke EFI articles are info taken directly from sled forums. Ive seen some articles that were almost a direct copy and paste of stuff written by Joe Blows on other forums.. So they are reading other forums and other mags.

All these current aftermarket Electronic boxes being sold now is 15 year old technology that has been OEM in other markets.

Same for Air Shocks. In 2003 Air shocks were OEM. Thats 12 years ago. Its all just a gimick really except they are lighter. And for us, lighter is always better. Performance wise though, nah.
YZ125H1
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6/4/2015 7:29am
Instead of putting DI on a motocross bike lets have the 2017 KTM 250SX drop even more weight by switching to air suspension front and back with the new lightened motor.
Tony Grove
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6/4/2015 7:51am
YZ125H1 wrote:
Instead of putting DI on a motocross bike lets have the 2017 KTM 250SX drop even more weight by switching to air suspension front and back...
Instead of putting DI on a motocross bike lets have the 2017 KTM 250SX drop even more weight by switching to air suspension front and back with the new lightened motor.
I'd rather have EFI.
Air forks are a pain in the ass. And air shocks as well. Especially in areas with a long thermometer.

Can you imagine having to adjust your car tire pressure in the AM, and then again in the afternoon when it is 60 degrees hotter when you go home?

Fudge that. I have plenty now I'm responsible for, and to be quite honest, I hate em, and half the time say screw it, and run it as it sits. Luckily for me, I run in pretty consistent temps and check the pressures once a week as it's not as crucial as if I was racing.

Here is the problem. I havent ridden for a month, so I go to ride and have no idea how it is due to seal leakage.




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