CAS FULL REASONED AWARD IN CASE OF JAMES STEWART

kongols
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5/22/2015 1:33am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2015 1:37am
Fraser wrote:
Smile at least my opinion has been validated by this report
kongols wrote:
That`s your opinion.
Fraser wrote:
And the opinion of CAS.
If I remember correctly all this time you said he was doping to gain unfair advantage, that he was a cheat and a doper. Did CAS confirm that?
Fraser
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5/22/2015 1:59am
You don't remember correctly.
sende
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5/22/2015 2:26am
Fraser wrote:
I've not read the full report yet, but I suspect neither have some of the above that are once again using this to vent their Xenophobia...
I've not read the full report yet, but I suspect neither have some of the above that are once again using this to vent their Xenophobia.

Lets face it the diehard JS fans that will never accept he did anything wrong are not about to change their opinions now, whatever that report says.

Where's JS's full and honest in-depth explanation for his fans that he promised he'd write as soon as all this was over? He's got nothing to say on the subject as usual.

Its the JS fanboys that are still butt-hurt (and RV of course), not the FIM.
Pleeeeaase.
5/22/2015 2:43am
You idiots are an embarrassment to US motocross. The facts are, James KNEW the rules, BROKE the rules, and then ignored the FIM ban after he...
You idiots are an embarrassment to US motocross. The facts are, James KNEW the rules, BROKE the rules, and then ignored the FIM ban after he was caught. He is lucky the punishment was not worse than it was.
JM485 wrote:
You realize you cannot just make up your own reality right, there is one around you that you have to live in? He was not "banned"...
You realize you cannot just make up your own reality right, there is one around you that you have to live in? He was not "banned" at the time he raced, he was "provisionally suspended", and was told by the organization that runs the outdoor series that he was eligible to race as long as the official ban was not in effect. Not saying people aren't being ridiculous about this, but don't just make stuff up that is provably not true.
I used the word ban when I should have used "provisionally suspended" but he was not supposed to be racing and he knew it. The fact that MX Sports allowed him to race is irrelevant, they don't get to make that call, and neither does James.

The Shop

5/22/2015 2:46am
BAMX wrote:
How did he ignore the ban? He raced in non sanctioned races. Are they sad that they don't control everything?
Just as the AMA is the US affiliate of the FIM, USADA is the US affiliate for WADA, and USADA is a signatory to the World...
Just as the AMA is the US affiliate of the FIM, USADA is the US affiliate for WADA, and USADA is a signatory to the World Anti Doping Code. If WADA bans an athlete, they are banned everywhere and in all sports.

Any more questions?
BAMX wrote:
If that is true....why was he allowed to race by MX Sports?
MX Sports shouldn't have allowed James to race but it really is not their job to prevent him, it was James responsibility to comply with the suspension and he chose to ignore it.
seph
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5/22/2015 3:12am
seph wrote:
"Well, the FIM pushed the issue (didn't have to) whether it governed MXSports and AMA Pro Racing, and it lost." That is yet to be determined...
"Well, the FIM pushed the issue (didn't have to) whether it governed MXSports and AMA Pro Racing, and it lost."

That is yet to be determined, isn't it?
Nope. CAS ruled that the FIM can, internally, react to AMA Pro Racing anyway it wants, and it can weigh what an athlete does in in...
Nope. CAS ruled that the FIM can, internally, react to AMA Pro Racing anyway it wants, and it can weigh what an athlete does in in a non-FIM governed series if the athlete is under an FIM license, but as I read it, CAS held the FIM cannot force MXSports to do anything. AMA Pro Racing and MXSports, according to CAS (the entity with thesay on it) is unaffiliated with the FIM and not under the FIM umbrella. If the FIM wants to make its contract arguments, it has to make them in some civil court, but against the backdrop of this award acknowledging that MXSports does not answer to the FIM as a subordinate sporting entity as the AMA itself is and was when it ran racing before it sold AMA Pro Racing.

The FIM did not have to press that point, but apparently couldn't help itself.
I agree that the FIM cant FORCE MXSpoerts to do anything BUT the ruling did state that MXSpoets can uphold the ruling if it wishes. If JS lines up for a national before Aug. 12th then I agree with you. If he does not line up before that date then I would argue that the FIM DOES have tacit control over the AMA nationals.

Sorry but I don't have time to post the salient points from the ruling right now.
plowboy
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5/22/2015 3:15am
Up front I'll tell you that I'm a huge Stewart fan. That being said, this situation isn't that difficult to understand. James did not comply with the rules. I don't know if it was intentional or just negligence. It doesn't matter which it was. Like it or not this is what sometimes happens when a superstar wrongly believes that they deserve some sort of special dispensation or consideration based on their perceived self importance. Before you rant or hate on what I've just said....go back and read the first line of my post. Peace.
KlootZak
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5/22/2015 3:27am
Did Stewart lie? Yes
Did Stewart use medication / PED without consenting FIM? Yes
Did he have a TUE before the positive test? No
Was Stewart negligent? Yes

However,
Did Stewart have a legitimate reason to use aderall? Yes
- He was diagnosed for ADHD in 2012 (by several doctors) and started to use aderall ever since. A TUE would have been granted if he had submitted every document at the right time.
Did Stewart gained any advantage compared to other competitors because of his medicine? No
- Stewart's medication insures that his concentration level is the same as an average person. He had a deficit compared to any normal person and now it's just the same.


For me, this is a big difference compared to people who actually cheat (= taking PEDs without any medical reason and only for the purpose to gain advantage over the competition). Therefore he should not have a 16 - 24 months ban like those people but more 6 - 12 months ...
plowboy
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5/22/2015 3:39am
KlootZak wrote:
Did Stewart lie? Yes Did Stewart use medication / PED without consenting FIM? Yes Did he have a TUE before the positive test? No Was Stewart...
Did Stewart lie? Yes
Did Stewart use medication / PED without consenting FIM? Yes
Did he have a TUE before the positive test? No
Was Stewart negligent? Yes

However,
Did Stewart have a legitimate reason to use aderall? Yes
- He was diagnosed for ADHD in 2012 (by several doctors) and started to use aderall ever since. A TUE would have been granted if he had submitted every document at the right time.
Did Stewart gained any advantage compared to other competitors because of his medicine? No
- Stewart's medication insures that his concentration level is the same as an average person. He had a deficit compared to any normal person and now it's just the same.


For me, this is a big difference compared to people who actually cheat (= taking PEDs without any medical reason and only for the purpose to gain advantage over the competition). Therefore he should not have a 16 - 24 months ban like those people but more 6 - 12 months ...
Agree with everything you stated except the last part. From what I've seen/read he already receive a fairly lenient suspension compared to others with similar infractions. Not pleasant but not what it could have been.
gsxrcr28
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5/22/2015 4:45am
Bottom line is WADA agrees he needs the medication, and he can race with it in a few months. The same few people are going to continue to cry about it to push their agenda. Give it a rest people, you look pathetic.
sandtrack315
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5/22/2015 4:56am
Boom line: later this year, he can race while taking the same medication he was banned from racing for taking. Cool. Makes a lot of sense that we lost out on a full year of watching one of the greatest do his thing.
kongols
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5/22/2015 5:08am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2015 5:09am
Boom line: later this year, he can race while taking the same medication he was banned from racing for taking. Cool. Makes a lot of sense...
Boom line: later this year, he can race while taking the same medication he was banned from racing for taking. Cool. Makes a lot of sense that we lost out on a full year of watching one of the greatest do his thing.
Yup, that`s what`s absurd about this whole mess. It does not make sense. It was a punishment for the sake of punishment.
Markee
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5/22/2015 5:17am
I like how dude said "i haven't read the whole document" but here is some shit i have to say about it..

Piss off
Funyun
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5/22/2015 5:47am
If they are mad he kept racing after being tested positive why was he even allowed to race those rounds I'm confused.
KlootZak
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5/22/2015 6:23am
Funyun wrote:
If they are mad he kept racing after being tested positive why was he even allowed to race those rounds I'm confused.
I think he had an approval from MX Sports (the dudes who run the outdoors) because MX Sports say they are not connected with FIM or any sort. Therefore Stewart decided to race a part of the nationals. However FIM does not agree with MX sports and say the provisional suspension also applied to AMA nationals.

No idea who is right though ... I did read somewhere that the suspension does prohibit him from riding any event (international, national, one time, series, ...)
Crush
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5/22/2015 6:29am
KlootZak wrote:
I think he had an approval from MX Sports (the dudes who run the outdoors) because MX Sports say they are not connected with FIM or...
I think he had an approval from MX Sports (the dudes who run the outdoors) because MX Sports say they are not connected with FIM or any sort. Therefore Stewart decided to race a part of the nationals. However FIM does not agree with MX sports and say the provisional suspension also applied to AMA nationals.

No idea who is right though ... I did read somewhere that the suspension does prohibit him from riding any event (international, national, one time, series, ...)
I believe the wording at the time, and it's important, was not approval, rather they didn't have any ground on which to prevent him from competing–and risk lawsuit from him/suzuki/yosh etc–because they weren't being forced to ban him because of the AMA pro vs AMA/FIM thing.
5/22/2015 6:52am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2015 9:57am
ML512 wrote:
Am I the only one that read points 7-17 very carefully? Him failing to turn in his FIM paperwork before the first round, false information on...
Am I the only one that read points 7-17 very carefully? Him failing to turn in his FIM paperwork before the first round, false information on the paperwork and falsely claiming he had a TUE when the first outdoor drug test rolled around...
Fraser wrote:
No you're not. There's lot of blatant lies from JS here, Guess you guys don't want to see it and prefer to protect him with the...
No you're not. There's lot of blatant lies from JS here, Guess you guys don't want to see it and prefer to protect him with the 'just a paperwork issue' line. Point 9 of the background information states that even though JS had been taking adderal since 2012 twice a day, he signed the FIM medical history form on 17 January 2014. In it he replied 'NO' to the question ' do you take any medicine or drugs regularly'.

That's not a paperwork issue, that's lying to the FIM. Why the hell did he do that?

On June 17 2014 at thunder valley he told the AMA he had a TUE for Adderall which was not the case. Again, why would he lie to the authorities? The AMA should also have banned him for that.

I'm only 2 pages in and it's not looking good

I'm not arguing with the punishment. I thought 16 months was excessive, but in hindsight maybe not so much. It may have been the right situation to make an example out of him and send a message to other top riders to take this seriously.

I have zero doubt that if he and his camp took the testing seriously and knew adderall was banned they could have gotten a TUE. In fact, they have the TUE now. Maybe I suspend him for SX but I see the FIM's argument here.

The whole process is a complete joke though. This document was not professional at all. James deserved some sort of punishment but no one deserves to be put through this hilarious process. He didn't know the punishment until a few weeks before SX started.
Crush
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5/22/2015 7:05am
I'm not arguing with the punishment. I thought 16 months was excessive, but in hindsight maybe not so much. It may have been the right situation...
I'm not arguing with the punishment. I thought 16 months was excessive, but in hindsight maybe not so much. It may have been the right situation to make an example out of him and send a message to other top riders to take this seriously.

I have zero doubt that if he and his camp took the testing seriously and knew adderall was banned they could have gotten a TUE. In fact, they have the TUE now. Maybe I suspend him for SX but I see the FIM's argument here.

The whole process is a complete joke though. This document was not professional at all. James deserved some sort of punishment but no one deserves to be put through this hilarious process. He didn't know the punishment until a few weeks before SX started.
They weren't making an example of him. In fact their sentence was lenient compared to others that have been handed out for the same substance under the WADA code. Why do people think it's a witch hunt? These are the same people that take down the biggest names in world sports, they probably were surprised motocrossers even get tested!
IceMan446
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5/22/2015 7:24am
Crush wrote:
They weren't making an example of him. In fact their sentence was lenient compared to others that have been handed out for the same substance under...
They weren't making an example of him. In fact their sentence was lenient compared to others that have been handed out for the same substance under the WADA code. Why do people think it's a witch hunt? These are the same people that take down the biggest names in world sports, they probably were surprised motocrossers even get tested!
Crush I think the problem is, with the report, the FIM looks like they wanted more. Just because he chose to race the nationals.

Which, from reading the report, sounded like it wasn't a problem. But they felt superior in their judgement and thought he shouldn't have raced.

Honestly, I don't see how or why the FIM is even needed in any series in the US. And I can bet you this, if the guys at MX Sports were the ones handling AC222's suspension if he were to be caught in this predicament, the people in support of the MXGP series would be having a fucking tantrum as well.
JBlain619
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5/22/2015 7:26am
I'm not arguing with the punishment. I thought 16 months was excessive, but in hindsight maybe not so much. It may have been the right situation...
I'm not arguing with the punishment. I thought 16 months was excessive, but in hindsight maybe not so much. It may have been the right situation to make an example out of him and send a message to other top riders to take this seriously.

I have zero doubt that if he and his camp took the testing seriously and knew adderall was banned they could have gotten a TUE. In fact, they have the TUE now. Maybe I suspend him for SX but I see the FIM's argument here.

The whole process is a complete joke though. This document was not professional at all. James deserved some sort of punishment but no one deserves to be put through this hilarious process. He didn't know the punishment until a few weeks before SX started.
Totally agree. I will say that I lost respect for James over the years due to some of his antics off the bike. I always gave him credit for his bike skills, but I wanted anyone to win but him because of it. Then, as he become less of an arrogant ass and more humble and appreciative, I started wanting to see him do well again. So here we are with this fiasco of a failed drug test. I thought that the amount off time to get a ruling and then the ruling itself of 16 months was complete bullshit. I thought 6 races max should be the punishment. After reading and listening to interviews from James, I truly thought the FIM was out to "get" him. He came off as being completely forthcoming and cooperative as far as the timing and honesty with the FIM, WADA, USADA, AMA and such. Now after reading the entire CAS findings, it pretty clear that James has lied to everyone. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what the truth is. He takes a test on Saturday 12April and has his trainer call the AMA Monday 14April. C'mon now! He knew he was in the wrong, knew he was going to pop positive, and tried to circumvent the situation. I'm still torn on the length of the suspension but an example needs to be made.
FreshTopEnd
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5/22/2015 7:32am
You idiots are an embarrassment to US motocross. The facts are, James KNEW the rules, BROKE the rules, and then ignored the FIM ban after he...
You idiots are an embarrassment to US motocross. The facts are, James KNEW the rules, BROKE the rules, and then ignored the FIM ban after he was caught. He is lucky the punishment was not worse than it was.
JM485 wrote:
You realize you cannot just make up your own reality right, there is one around you that you have to live in? He was not "banned"...
You realize you cannot just make up your own reality right, there is one around you that you have to live in? He was not "banned" at the time he raced, he was "provisionally suspended", and was told by the organization that runs the outdoor series that he was eligible to race as long as the official ban was not in effect. Not saying people aren't being ridiculous about this, but don't just make stuff up that is provably not true.
I used the word ban when I should have used "provisionally suspended" but he was not supposed to be racing and he knew it. The fact...
I used the word ban when I should have used "provisionally suspended" but he was not supposed to be racing and he knew it. The fact that MX Sports allowed him to race is irrelevant, they don't get to make that call, and neither does James.
Actually, MXSports does get to make that call, at least under the circumstances here. That's exactly what the decision says. The FIM only get to make the call as to how it will treat a rider subject to FIM discipline happens if a rider chooses that avenue.

There's nothing controversial about Stew being penalized, even if people can't accept that. People outside the sport who look at this for guidance on doping regulation under the WDC are going to say "nothing new here." Hopefully with the notoriety of this ~ Stews folly and apparently the complete abdication by his support team, including Suzuki, and the avoidablility of all this ~ people will be more diligent in view of the cautionary tale on PED.

But two things can be true at the same time, and the biggest thing out of this is that the FIM tried to assert authority over a top motorcycle racing series and was told it has none. That's huge. I'm sure MXSports did not want to be in the middle of this, which is what happened when Stew decided to continue racing, but it's not a bad thing to have the top sports tribunal in the world establish that you, not someone else, governs your affairs.


IceMan446
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5/22/2015 7:37am
Actually, MXSports does get to make that call, at least under the circumstances here. That's exactly what the decision says. The FIM only get to make...
Actually, MXSports does get to make that call, at least under the circumstances here. That's exactly what the decision says. The FIM only get to make the call as to how it will treat a rider subject to FIM discipline happens if a rider chooses that avenue.

There's nothing controversial about Stew being penalized, even if people can't accept that. People outside the sport who look at this for guidance on doping regulation under the WDC are going to say "nothing new here." Hopefully with the notoriety of this ~ Stews folly and apparently the complete abdication by his support team, including Suzuki, and the avoidablility of all this ~ people will be more diligent in view of the cautionary tale on PED.

But two things can be true at the same time, and the biggest thing out of this is that the FIM tried to assert authority over a top motorcycle racing series and was told it has none. That's huge. I'm sure MXSports did not want to be in the middle of this, which is what happened when Stew decided to continue racing, but it's not a bad thing to have the top sports tribunal in the world establish that you, not someone else, governs your affairs.


FTE with your knowledge, is there a way to get the FIM out of the process entirely?

And do you feel like the FIM is needed in anyway when it comes to SX or MX int the US?
FreshTopEnd
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5/22/2015 7:48am
moto899ca wrote:
There needs to be some difference in punishment for different levels of infractions. What WADA says is that they dont care if you were shooting up...
There needs to be some difference in punishment for different levels of infractions. What WADA says is that they dont care if you were shooting up HGH or drinking too much cooffee, youre a criminal all the same. Fuggin bonkers
There is, and it varies among substances. And it's gotten more flexible, but not more lenient.

The problem is that it is a one size fits all model that smaller sports buy into when they cannot afford to have their own system with penalties tailored to the frequency of that sports specific competition. The extreme example is that an Olympic athlete would have missed zero Olympics and Stew will have missed three championship opportunities and close to 30 points and purse paying races.

It's great to view PED testing as some sort of branding that legitimizes a sport, like an organic sticker on produce, but that's just marketing IMO, and it begs e question of whether the regime you adopt makes sense for the sport at hand.
5/22/2015 7:51am
Actually, MXSports does get to make that call, at least under the circumstances here. That's exactly what the decision says. The FIM only get to make...
Actually, MXSports does get to make that call, at least under the circumstances here. That's exactly what the decision says. The FIM only get to make the call as to how it will treat a rider subject to FIM discipline happens if a rider chooses that avenue.

There's nothing controversial about Stew being penalized, even if people can't accept that. People outside the sport who look at this for guidance on doping regulation under the WDC are going to say "nothing new here." Hopefully with the notoriety of this ~ Stews folly and apparently the complete abdication by his support team, including Suzuki, and the avoidablility of all this ~ people will be more diligent in view of the cautionary tale on PED.

But two things can be true at the same time, and the biggest thing out of this is that the FIM tried to assert authority over a top motorcycle racing series and was told it has none. That's huge. I'm sure MXSports did not want to be in the middle of this, which is what happened when Stew decided to continue racing, but it's not a bad thing to have the top sports tribunal in the world establish that you, not someone else, governs your affairs.


That is true with regard to the FIM but not when it comes to PED penalties. MX Sports is voluntarily governed by USADA, which is the national organization in charge of implementing the World Anti Doping Code. If WADA deems an athlete (JS7 in this case) is suspended for a banned substance use then USADA and any sport it governs is required to comply with that suspension/ban.
FreshTopEnd
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5/22/2015 7:59am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2015 8:00am
IceMan446 wrote:
FTE with your knowledge, is there a way to get the FIM out of the process entirely? And do you feel like the FIM is needed...
FTE with your knowledge, is there a way to get the FIM out of the process entirely?

And do you feel like the FIM is needed in anyway when it comes to SX or MX int the US?
Boy, that's a big question, and it's likely governed by contracts The web of which is probably thicker now that MXSports brought in USADA). But anybody can do almost anything with enough money. I dont think it's a good idea versus other options, but those depend on people being sensible.

But, as a litigator, I'm rarely a witness to sensibility. I'm on the back end when the wheels come off and you wonder what the hell people thought they were doing overplaying their position. The FIM just found out it's less powerful than it thought, the question is how they react. The oems were intolerant of the SX wars back in 03 and I suspect less now of those sorts of turf battles. Motorcycle racing is too small for these organizations not to cooperate, and other than the business cesspool of the SX/MX Commission, which has sold out to Youthstream and rides it's coat tails, the FIM is a solid and important body for motorcycling. These things get screwy when the revenue stream from racing is implicated; that's what led the AMA to get out of professional racing.

FreshTopEnd
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5/22/2015 8:10am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2015 8:15am
That is true with regard to the FIM but not when it comes to PED penalties. MX Sports is voluntarily governed by USADA, which is the...
That is true with regard to the FIM but not when it comes to PED penalties. MX Sports is voluntarily governed by USADA, which is the national organization in charge of implementing the World Anti Doping Code. If WADA deems an athlete (JS7 in this case) is suspended for a banned substance use then USADA and any sport it governs is required to comply with that suspension/ban.
That's true now, but only as long as they have that relationship. That's a contractual web, and really a non issue from here on out. That's what is so stupid about forcing an unnecessary decision. The FIM could have said exactly what the CAS panel held and been satisfied: "We, the FIM, have the right to assess a rider's penalty in view of his conduct and attitude if he under our license." But they went farther and pushed it to "not only do we have authority over riders competing under our license, but MXSports is organizationally subordinate to us and we can tell them what to do."

The fact that they were willing to force an answer to a reality everyone has been adapting to pretty well since 2008 just reflects bureaucratic arrogance, regardless of the fact that Stews violation and penalty played out as they would in any sport.
500guy
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5/22/2015 8:27am
if FIM has no say in who races MXSports events why is Stewart sitting out ?
Crush
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5/22/2015 8:36am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2015 8:36am
500guy wrote:
if FIM has no say in who races MXSports events why is Stewart sitting out ?
WADA->USADA->MXSPORTS
FreshTopEnd
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5/22/2015 8:48am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2015 8:49am
500guy wrote:
if FIM has no say in who races MXSports events why is Stewart sitting out ?
^^^^^
Because everyone wanted it that way.
RY4N37
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5/22/2015 8:53am
IceMan446 wrote:
Crush I think the problem is, with the report, the FIM looks like they wanted more. Just because he chose to race the nationals. Which, from...
Crush I think the problem is, with the report, the FIM looks like they wanted more. Just because he chose to race the nationals.

Which, from reading the report, sounded like it wasn't a problem. But they felt superior in their judgement and thought he shouldn't have raced.

Honestly, I don't see how or why the FIM is even needed in any series in the US. And I can bet you this, if the guys at MX Sports were the ones handling AC222's suspension if he were to be caught in this predicament, the people in support of the MXGP series would be having a fucking tantrum as well.
'And I can bet you this, if the guys at MX Sports were the ones handling AC222's suspension if he were to be caught in this predicament, the people in support of the MXGP series would be having a fucking tantrum as well.'

Well obviously, what point are you trying to make here? First of all, the MXGP series is run by Youthstream in much the same way the MX Sports run the AMA nationals, and they have had nothing to do with this entire process. So the opposite of this situation would not be for MX Sports to handle a European riders ban. Neither Youthstream or MX sports have any jurisdiction over anything except the series that they run. This process has been handled by the FIM, which is the INTERNATIONAL federation for all motorcycle sport, WADA, which is the WORLD anti-doping association, and the court of arbitration for sport, which again, covers sport all over the world. This is not a Europe vs America thing. Stewart broke the rules and as such he had to go through exactly the same procedures as any other athlete from any other country would do

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