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Per your previous message: It's always been the case, but it's worse now than it had been for a long long long time.
. Do you think this is truly because of the bikes or because we have more people competing at a higher level? Frequency maybe?
Think insurance companies only interest is making money? Tell me more about the progression of unibody vehicles. Tell me more about ABS on street bikes. Tell me more about the multiple distance sensors our modern vehicles have. Insurance data surely doesn't do dick for the safety of anyone else or help the companies making the equipment. But once again, your opinion. Cupcake!
Frequency? Do we wanna look at bike sales now and then? Don't think so... and is high competition really the issue? Racers will get hurt in Supercross because it's supercross. Unfortunately, that's part of the nature. I just don't see how giving them bikes that have 65 horsepower when they're (Quite obviously) fine at 45 is a good idea. Or that those same bikes should be available to Tom who can't ride, and Harry who weighs half as much. You wouldn't give Tom the key's to Riccardo's F1...
And again, all your insurance examples–Wonderful. Not MX. Leatt/6D plus more have consistently got torn a new one by naysayers because their data isn't qualified/broad/available/tested/averaged blah blah blah. You guys have your data, again, it's not doing anything for the people making the equipment or the tracks or anything to do with mx. Who cares if it helped cars. We're not talking about cars, and your employer isn't applying them to MX. If they are, what is it? How is it helping all these kids we keep hearing about?
And if bikes aren't the real issue... what do you want to fix? Tracks–It's supercross. Outside supercross, who's gonna regulate it? Mandatory Safety Gear–How you gonna not get sued? Modding what's available–Who's gonna officiate it...
The big bikes got here because of a rule. Change the rule, give em time to adjust, bring it back to some normalcy... No one needs a rocketship when the stadiums, dirt, tracks, bones are all the same and bikes were easily fast enough 10 years ago.
Chad Reed brought up an excellent point on DMXS last night. The same chest protector he used to wear riding 80's is the same one he buys for his son today. You're going to sit here and tell me something doesn't need to change here?
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If Chad chooses to buy the same chest protector for his kid that he used it is nothing but that... a choice. I get that he has something against that company but others make them as well.
Although change in the bikes might have some minor impact and changes to the track perhaps a little greater to the number and severity of incidents of injury, education/training of young riders perhaps would have the greatest impact. The article makes this categorical conclusion:
Off-road motorcycle riding, like operating motor vehicles on roadways, requires physical skills and judgment that children and young teens do not possess. In 2000, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended that parents not allow children and teens aged less than 16 years to ride off-road motorcycles or ATVs and that states prohibit the use of such vehicles by children and teens in that age group (5). Studies of ATV use indicate that state laws with age restrictions for off-road vehicle use can be effective in decreasing the proportion of riders under the minimum age and that requiring riders of off-road vehicles to wear helmets can reduce the risk for fatal injury (7,8). However, only 19 states require off-road motorcyclists aged less than 18 years to wear helmets, and only eight states† set minimum ages (range: 8--14 years) for operation of off-road motorcycles, according to the American Motorcycle Association (9).
Now don't get me wrong, I am not agreeing with an age restriction, just suggesting that a great number of the incidents can probably be traced back to bad decisions by the rider. Case in point:
So is introducing a smaller displacement full size MX bike. Everyone knows the 250Fs run comparible lap times to 450Fs.
The problem is having a smaller displacement full size four stroke. People complain about reliability of modern race 250Fs. How do you think a 150F in a full size frame will hold up?
Manufacturers are in a pickle.. they don't parity because KTM/Husky/Yamaha privateers will mop up the big name pros with lighter, cheaper two strokes... or so we're led to believe.
Outdoors?! Create an Open class for all the crazies!
Good point
The irony.... Unadilla is probably my favorite race and has few big jumps.
And what is the point about talking about chest protectors, when no one wheres them, regardless of their progression as a product? You can't force them to wear anything other than the stuff that's been mandatory since the beginning of time. The first chest protector that cuts the skin will be the first in a zip-loc bag in court. JT basically said that's a concern at Fly, they're offering gear but will never force it, it's too risky.
I wear all the gear I can, a fox titan, atlas brace, 6D, I hate knee braces but I wear them... I think "they" should. I know you can't make them.
Remember the Windham vs Stewart heat race from 2012 Houston? I hated that Kevin wasn't able to pull that one out.
....
We aren't gonna see any 175cc full size four strokes.. people whine about 250f's self destructing today.. just imagine what life would be like with a four stroke with 75 fewer cc's run at race pace for 30+ minutes.
...
I ride a 450 and that's what I want to ride. I haven't tried a 250 2 stroke in about 13 years, last one I rode was a 2002 CR250 and it was like riding a chain saw. Way too "buzzy" for me. If that was all there was to ride, I would find another hobby, but that is just me.
I started my son on 65's and went to 85's then 105's and then a 125 for 6 months. I bought a 250F thinking it would be good for him to start learning on it and he would need some time to get used to it. I bought it on a Wednesday and took it to a race that weekend where practice was on a Friday night, he rode the 125 the first 2 practice rounds and then I asked him if he wanted to ride the 4 stroke. He took it out and didn't look back. That was basically the last weekend he wanted to ride the 125. I sold it 45 days later. Recently I lined up a 2013 Yz250 for him to take some laps on thinking he might like it and want to give it a try. Nope, after about 7 laps on the track he came back, parked it and said he wasn't interested in riding a 2 stroke. BTW, he is 15.
Last year we chased the dream of making it to Loretta's and made it to the regional and that was it. Good experience and we had a darn great year riding and racing. This year we are doing it again and he has already qualified in the SC region so we are going to Freestone for the regional. I have always wanted to ride there so it looks like we will get our chance. We are planning on going to WW Ranch for the SE qualifier next weekend and then to Monster also. We will just have to see how things go.
Being a father you can damn well bet this injury stuff weighs on me. Both me and my son have been hurt. Back in 2010 he broke his arm in practice and the very next day I broke my collar bone in my first moto. In 2011 while doing our last practice before Mini o's my son crashed and got a concussion and also damaged a nerve behind his left ear and has lost all but 4% of hearing in his left ear. Lastly, in 2013 we were practicing at a track not too far away with a friend and he crashed, had 2 compound fractures (wrist / leg) and was knocked out with a TBA. He was in rough shape and we didn't know for sure he was going to make it. Me and my son were first to reach him so my son saw everything. When we went to the hospital it really sunk in seeing him in the bad shape he was in. So, after all this one may ask why we still ride or why I allow my son to ride. It's simple, this is the absolute best sport a family can do together. Injuries and tragedy are on my mind every time I swing a leg over my 450 or he gets on his 250. Me and my son pray before practice and races every time. Do I think this will keep us from getting hurt or worse? Not necessarily, when it's our time, it will be our time. But we do everything we can to minimize the risk by wearing safety gear and such.
Do I think tracks could be safer? Yes, we all see things that we think could be better or changed. We also see folks riding over their head or being reckless in general. Have any of you said anything to them? I have only when they endanger myself or my son but not when I see them do it to someone else. Maybe I should? We all play a role in making this sport as safe as it can be. We are never going to eliminate the danger but maybe we can mitigate it just a little if we all get out of our own little bubble and confront unsafe acts when they occur. It's just a small piece that "might" help besides the other things I have read about in this thread.
Ride safe!
Pit Row
Anyways. I have to disagree slightly with the idea of restricting kids bikes as the Cobra president suggested. They already are by their capacity. A 65 will never be faster than an 85 etc. 85s aren't more dangerous than 65s. But why not at least get them back to 60, 80, 100. There's your restrictor.
The 100 class (Big Wheel 80 with the 100 motor) should be pushed as well as the 125 class. This is where the outdoor nationals have a big part to play in this. If there was a Pro or amatuer 125 class at nationals parents and kids alike will have a reason to ride them seriously. (Everything the pros do is emulated weather its what brand of gear they wear or what they supposedly drink) If you have the 125 class featured at Nats it will feed down and catch on in a big way. Right now they see the 250 4 strokes as the goal so thats what dad puts them on.
No racing 250fs until your 16+ In australia back before 4 strokes you couldn't race a 250 2 stroke until you were 16. Todays 250 4 strokes are equivalent power wise and to make them worse for kids they're heavier and WAY easier to ride fast. They're simply too dangerous for skinny, weak kids to race. It doesnt matter how skilled they even are. ( I hear they have a whole system in place in Australia before a kid rides a 250 4 stroke now but my ideas, opinions are for the USA.
I also feel the smooth fast practice tracks with the huge jumps I see in all the youtube vids are bad. I know how it works. These tracks need the riders and the second they let a track get rough at least a few riders will whinge because they're paying to ride there and they won't come back. The tracks nowadays look like freeways with huge jumps. It gets to the point where a relatively unskilled rider can still jump huge gaps. Back in the 2 stroke days firstly they would never have got the throttle control / gear selection / clutch slip right to rail the corner before the jump plus the track would have been whooped out. Guys are going crazy speeds now when they only have the skill for half the speed.
I see suggestions of collecting data from now on. Honestly something needs to change NOW. We can't wait 10 years for the data to be analyzed. Hopefully someone can collect and work with past accident data?
Maybe I repeated stuff sorry. I have to admit I'd be very very surprised if anything changes in a noticeable way but hey at least we tried.
I remember as a kid reading a Craig Dack (Aussie motocross legend) interview from around 1986. He had a really bad crash maybe earlier that season in the Mr Motocross series. He was scared at the time while lying on the side of the track in a bad way telling himself "no one has ever died racing motocross" I so wish that was still the case. Sux so much
I don't believe its about horsepower. More to do with how much easier bikes are to ride nowadays and how much smoother and faster tracks have become. Tracks were rougher, bikes needed more skill to get up to speed in the past. The skilled riders went fast and the not so skilled went way slower and usually lost interest.
Exhibit A:
https://instagram.com/p/0jC19cuokL/
People focus on the height and distance of the jumps but it's really the smooth long run-up that enables the lunacy. A real MX track should be too rough and have too many turns to allow for the kind of speed shown in the video.
I had a buddy years ago that thought Carlsbad was too rough so he'd go to Perris then later call me to tell me about the jumps he was clearing. BFD if you ask me......I am a MX racer not some flat biller freestyler wannabe.
MULTIPLY this by thousands of riders and racers and it is no surprise where we are. MX lost its a way when SX influences arrived and we have yet to find it again. EDIT: This is why if the tracks don't change it won't matter what displacement. .....the carnage WILL continue
If this just blows over, then we're going to have more deaths.
Whether a 450 results in less crashes or more is a moot point. The undisputable truth is that people get hurt more when crashing at higher speeds.
We need to follow Nascar and F1 and manage the speed.
It really does come down to 125 and 250 2 strokes being the standard. And even those have increased in speed over 20 years ago.
We should slow down all the classes, then just like F1 allow the manufacturers to figure out how to get more horsepower out of the smaller motors. If it gets past a speed threshold, do it again.
If that results in 2 strokes coming back so be it.
What happens when the technology makes these bikes to 100MPH? What kind of injuries will we sustain?
If F1 and Nascar didn't self regulate, there would be more deaths and the government would be regulating the sport.
If we don't the same will happen. And in our sport we have children riding so it will have more scrutiny.
You're right. We can't stop horrific injuries altogether. We can reduce the number of, and intensity of them dramatically.
Windham is right.
I rest my case.
making it easier to ride would be even worse. Obviously he doesn't have the experience to ride a bike like that much less one that would make it easier for him to get into trouble.
Easier to ride is what gets people hurt. Which would you rather have? a bike steps out on you because the back end breaks loose and making you back off or a bike that tracks forward onto something you might not be ready for? Which one results in something learned? Want to make that double? ok set up the corner before hand and shift perfectly, clutch perfectly get into position before hand. Want to make that double? just crack the throttle on the face of the jump, you'll make it no problem. See what i mean?
Yes the 2 stroke is more peaky but it teaches valuable skills that most kids aren't learning if they jump to a full sized bike.
Post a reply to: KDub..."450's have to go".