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Not to say that nothing should be done before we have it, but until we have the supporting data we don't know if it is a problem of displacement, safety gear, tracks etc and all we can do is speculate and share ideas. It's not likely the same causes for pros versus amateurs versus weekend warriors that accounts for the serious injuries.
Regarding indoor supercross tracks; perhaps governing a maximum average speed could be the answer, we know how long each track is and how long lap times are and so we could adjust obstacles (add wall jumps and sand sections etc after press day) to ensure average speed per lap is within a safer range.
If you don't have the Data you can't do an Analysis because if you do it's knee jerk and does little good and we all suffer.
Plus I wanna do this and I could but my skill set says NO. Now the guy doing it has a different skill set and he feels perfectly comfortable some of us do on a 60' Table top.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=439168642912511&pnref=story
Jason
We need data to analyze to recommend the safest recommendations.
I am expecting something like - high risk for death and paralysis: 13-15 Year Old Male, Novice to Intermediate. 250F
In that case - recommend 125cc and 180F class for 13-15 years old.
Look at Cianciarulo..... he rode a 125 for while before going 250F. Smart dad and Team Manager.
Need hypothesises. Data. Analysis. Prove or Disapprove.
This data analysis needs to be ongoing. This sport has radically changed in 20 years. Had four strokes never been developed..... were would two strokes be today? Better
Major injury analysis:
Variables:
Sport (arena cross, supercross, motocross)
Gender (male female)
Bike Size (50cc -450cc)
Skill (beginner, novice, intermediate, expert, pro, vet, vet pro)
Engine Type (two stroke, four stroke)
Type of Injury (death, paralysis)
Obstacle
Relevant information
And we need a large sample size.
The mission is not to attack and manufacturer, gear company, track owner, promoter.... its to provide the safest, most exciting racing at all levels.
Should novice riders be on the same track as National Pro?
There is a lot of moving parts to shift through to find the best answers.
What we need to explore -
* Other Sports Best Practices (from football to Nascar)
* Data Analysis
* Track design (slow it down? more moto style?)
* Gear (lead innovation)
* Proper training
* Bikes
How do you factor in the aspect of skill level + flat out balls/llack of fear/pressure on a rider that maybe throw a bit of water over the bikes are too powerful argument.
I mentioned Joel Elliot in my earlier post (RIP).
I remember him at a local SX event in my home town showgrounds many many years ago...there was a section where everyone (250 pro 2 strokes included) were doing double single. Joel was coming out of the corner with zero run up and doing a massive huck to triple double. He was the only one doing it the whole night, everyone was amazed and he was riding a 125.
What about Laroccos leap? Larocco did it on a 125 and how many pros jump it these days constantly on the 250F? Bagget, Musquin? Then you get riders who (from pressure) try an obstacle like this and come unstuck.
So theoretically if an massive obstacle is there it's safer to be on a more powerful bike if you are even going to attempt it right? Wrong?
So then we go back to Chad's argument for everyone to race flat track...oh dear
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They are too young and they get out right away. J
I don't think we'll see new lower CC bikes. I'd bet my left testy the factories are getting ready for the Electric revolution. We know KTM's been preparing themselves.
Another F1 comparo. Mercedes had a jump start on the competition with the new technology. Look where they are in respect to the rest of the field ATM. If you were going to buy an F1 engine. What would it be? Not Renault I'm betting.
The big 4 would want to be keeping their eye on the ball. The ball would be, KTM.
When it happens. It will happen quickly. Like the 4T revolution.
We have to make the sport safer. We also have to coexist with the general public. More land isn't becoming available and in the future the world will be facing a food shortage. Land will be prioritized for agriculture. All bad news for our sport if we refuse to change.
Hence why I think MX will end up pretty much, indoors only.
Think I'm tripping?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indoor+Quad+MX+track
Those charts show a four stroke making 90% of their power over a really broad range.
IF an oem could make a 40HP plus 125, if, there's no way that shit would be usable and capable like a current four stroke. It'd still be peaky.
Irrespective of that, it's the capability bit... You say it's only a little more, but when you're dealing with 36 to 42Hp, that's a 15% swing. That's huge! And it's traction, and characteristics of the motor and the ability of the suspension.
Bikes have always been dangerous, but bones and bodies have remained the same whilst the bikes have gotten faster, the jumps longer and the suspension better... which is why I posted the video of 86 anaheim to 14 toronto. The biggest jump on the track was that triple at Anaheim, and they had to swing wide to do it. RJ cased it, nasty, but it was fine.... The quads and rhythms that James was doing was about the same, and more consequences if he fucked up.
There is no single answer but certainly track design some bike changes could help although you will never prevent death and serious injuries in this sport.
Motor characteristics and traits can be modified in the blink of an eye. Don't believe me? Go ride an early crf450 then a 2015 crf450 and tell me your thoughts on the engine braking. Furthermore, forget the engine braking, just add a slipper clutch and you've all but eliminated that. Suspension more advanced? From what 1970? Sure. Otherwise the majority of the technology in the suspension category has been around for a long time. Don't believe me? Then how did Jerry Robin qualify for Loretta's on a freaking 85 CR250. Almost 30 year old suspension must be inferior!
You've all but solved your own argument with your OWN statement: Bikes have always been dangerous, but bones and bodies have remained the same
Yes our bodies have remained the same. What advancements other than a Leatt and hats off have been made in terms of safety gear? None. That is where we need to start. I even posted this earlier in the week. Could easily be adapted to MX through body armor. Check it out:
http://www.alpinestars.com/tech-air
How are you gonna modify and moderate the engine traits to be safer? The AMA uses a fucking tape measure to look at swingarms... Couldn't organise a root in a brothel.
One kid qualifying for a race on an old bike doesn't prove jack about anything except he had the skill to do it, how does that apply to the masses... Should every kid run an old bike and see what happens? Are you really trying to say they aren't faster around a track now than they were!? Why the fuck did they change to them then?
And how do you suggest safety equipment is the answer in the over litigious environment you guys have over there? There's not even qualified privately funded, publicly available data out there, let alone any robust enough to stand up in a potential court case.
Simplest action is to regress the bikes ability... Funnily enough, it's not gonna be the first time it's happened in out sport or other motorsports.
Once again traction is a variable and that's an opinion. Modification of engine traits is once again a very easy thing to modify. Ever ridden a two stroke with a large flywheel weight? Slipper clutch on a 4 stroke? Better yet put a slipper in one of the early redesigned R6 street bikes and take it for a rip and get back to me on that. If you think the OE's wouldn't consider this, you are sadly mistaken.
Jerry Robins case is the proof in the pudding. In the hand of a capable mechanic (I believe Chad Watts built Jerrys bike for Lorettas, correct me if I'm wrong here). Any bike can be made into a highly competitive machine. What you were trying to portray by showing the two races above is that the bikes were slower and couldn't clear the smaller obstacles. So yes, you were insinuating we should digress with our technology and make the bikes "slower". However Jerry proved bikes of 30 years yesteryear are still competitive with todays machines. The OEM's changed based on what the EPA regulated and what the public wanted. Case closed.
And this my friend is where you can pull your foot out of your mouth. I have worked for multiple large insurance companies as a data analyst for a good while now. If you think we don't have data on motorcycle accidents already, take this into consideration: none of the big 5 insurance companies offer collision coverage on any type of closed course motorcycle event. What's that tell you. If we really want to make an impact we would enforce each state to require helmet laws on the street. Then we would be making headway in reducing overall motorcycle deaths.
I ride a 450 BTW and also believe that it is too much fuggin bike, same as I thought of the 500's
Pit Row
It is exactly like someone waltzing into your garage and informing you that you had to use a briggs and stratton motor strapped to your weedwacker now. Nevermind that your weedwacker is doing just fine for the purpose it serves, but now you have a heavier engine to deal with, and it's underpowered. The solution obviously is to redesign the 4 stroke to make more power - so now you have a firebreathing weedwacker that is still heavier and obliterates the weeds. But it's also snapping shafts and can't keep string in it. So you have to visit your dealer way more often to pay lots of money in upgrades and tweaking your new (more expensive) fire breathing weedwacker. And when it works, sure, it works beautifully, but you have to hold it at half throttle or else the thing will torque out of your hands and break shafts.
At some point you have to ask yourself, what was wrong with my old weedwacker? Why have all the older more user friendly weedwackers been phased out for this thing? You had a tool that worked, but now you've been d*cking around with this "better' one for 10 years, spending countless dollars in upgrades just to kind of get back to where you used to be.
Some people fall over in the tub and die and some people are going to endo over a 6' long tabletop and end up in a chair. That's just life unfortunately.
If you want to reduce injuries, pay attention to those 5 things I listed above and try to figure out how to reduce the risk caused by these factors. Fuck just getting the water trucks off the racing line and keeping riders from going backwards on the track would give us a 20% reduction in severe injuries! That's the easy stuff.
I do have a theory that 4 strokes are more prone to flicking a rider off at inopportune moments but it's just based on personal experiences of mine and I'm not willing to point a finger at the 'wet fart' machines just yet.
Since you're keen on using MXA for info here is some more from them regarding the bike you are comparing:
A: Many modern motocross bikes are fast in spite of their riders’ ham-fisted riding. You can just sit on them, twist the throttle and run out of talent before you run out of speed. Not so with a 2014 KTM 150SX. It only goes fast if you ride it fast. If you sit on a 150SX like a lump of coal and expect it to turn you into a diamond, you will have a long wait.
Unlike with a four-stroke, you have to generate speed from a two-stroke by riding like a spree-killer. Turn it on, never shut it off, reload fast and take no prisoners. If both hands aren’t moving as fast as Liberace’s on the keyboard and you aren’t moving your body like a soap opera actress on “Dancing With the Stars,” you aren’t riding it right.
Here’s a clue. If you can’t hear the engine screaming, you aren’t going fast. It takes an all-out commitment to race a 150SX. That means that it’s not the proper weapon for the old, fat, lazy, uncoordinated, timid or maladroit. It is not an axe that you swing blindly; it is a scalpel.
One point that may have been discussed, but I want to emphasize with is data collection. Our sport, specifically on the local, armature level was never larger than when I began racing in the early 70's into the early 90's. when you count up laps made across the world, in my mind we've fucked our sport and many lives totally devastated with this so called "progression".
I believe with out a doubt...and in my not so humble opinion -the difference in traumatic injury and also death in porportion to laps is off the charts today from our hay day.
So glad my son never caught the bug, but wish he had what I had in my early years.
Racing is a special thrill, that comes with special risks. Choose wisely.
If you tell them they need a universal heavy flywheel, they'll come up with different mapping and gearing, blah blah blah. If you tell them they can't have more than X-horsepower, (Which again, the AMA couldn't pour tea from a teapot) they'd work out a way to have it at X for testing and Y for racing (see sound testing)
The base issue, and the one that needs to be addressed is the bikes are fast as fuck and have suspension/handling that far outstretches the ability of the human body to deal with any possible miscalculations. Again. It's always been the case, but it's worse now than it had been for a long long long time.
And since you're in insurance, you'd surely know that! The only thing what you said about insurance tells me is that someone said it's not viable financially... Cause that's what insurance companies are in the business of, making money. If you guys have data, that's great, good for you. No one else does. It doesn't do dick for the safety of anyone else or help the companies making the equipment... and that still doesn't address anything to do with liability, which is IMPOSSIBLE to solve in the USA... Coffee Cup!
And again, using the Robin example is silly. It's one riders skill, and now you're looking at me posting SX videos and him qualifying at a regional at Millville... an outdoor sand track. He went great, but I bet RJ went faster... but are we judging how safe the bikes are/were by a few exceptions or by common sense that the bikes have progressed in 20 years... OH and every pro from RJ to RC saying they have... I mean... hey... KW cleared a 110feet uphill triple on a bultaco, they must be ready for A1 2016. Let's all buy one!
Are you really trying to suggest the bikes aren't an issue?
Post a reply to: KDub..."450's have to go".