Are the 450's too powerfull?

flarider
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9/22/2008 6:47pm
The power makes it too easy to do too much, to jump to far, to go to fast, to hit something to hard.

Every motorsport in the world has taken steps at one time or another to slow the equipment and tracks down, except for motocross

Tracks are an issue
Suspension is an issue
Horsepower is an issue

This sport needs to figure out whatever it is and fix it fast, or the Fed will step in and do it...and that will not be pretty.

If you do not believe me, look up "ATC's and the CPSC"
CamP
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9/22/2008 6:51pm Edited Date/Time 9/22/2008 6:53pm
I've said this a million times but horsepower is not the problem. Advances in suspension technology is why bikes are faster and tracks are more technical. Today's suspension is so good that even novices think they can hit anything wide open without negative consequences.
9/22/2008 7:01pm
flarider wrote:
The power makes it too easy to do too much, to jump to far, to go to fast, to hit something to hard. Every motorsport in...
The power makes it too easy to do too much, to jump to far, to go to fast, to hit something to hard.

Every motorsport in the world has taken steps at one time or another to slow the equipment and tracks down, except for motocross

Tracks are an issue
Suspension is an issue
Horsepower is an issue

This sport needs to figure out whatever it is and fix it fast, or the Fed will step in and do it...and that will not be pretty.

If you do not believe me, look up "ATC's and the CPSC"
I agree with this 100%.

450s produce to much usable power for your average rider. They have become too easy to ride for the average rider, your average rider can ride over his head on a 450 without even knowing it and get himself into trouble. An old 500 2 stroke wasnt as easy to ride above your head because the power was so unusable for your average rider, it made more power but was harder to ride.

I am not going to blame bikes for a rider getting hurt, but 450s do tend to give a guy more confidence in something he wont normally do.
nc_mx_kid
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9/22/2008 7:02pm
I believe the power coupled with the weight of a 450 leads to some of these crashes.

The Shop

Motodrew295
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9/22/2008 8:11pm
False confidence, the bikes are nimble, fast and for the most part stable. I think the "usable power" argument can go all the way down the dipslacement line. We are comparing 450s to 500s when they were ment to compete against 250 TS. The 250 TS is closer to the 250F now according to the AMA. Whats wrong with putting everybody on slower bikes and making them work harder?

It's no argument the bikes are faster... do they cause more injuries? That is not for sure but its a good place to start pointing fingers.

Before fourstrokes the a persons limits were defined by their ability and bike performance, now the 4 strokes fill the gap of ability with tourque and lots of it.

Around here I feel like the jumps haven't got any bigger, most tracks have small jumps and high speed. I usually find myself wanting more jumps.
todder
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9/22/2008 8:19pm
I'll never understand why the pros aren't required to wear all the safety gear available. Seeing some of these guys going as fast as they are in just a long sleeve shirt is just stupid and a bad example for kids.
MX7MX
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9/22/2008 8:27pm
The internet makes hearing of this news WAY easier than ever before, back then when there was no internet, how often did you hear of those things happening Dave?
9/22/2008 8:32pm Edited Date/Time 9/22/2008 8:36pm
Hello, this my first post. I've been a follower of the sport for about 15 years... I just registered here due to Blair Morgan's tragic accident...
Hello, this my first post. I've been a follower of the sport for about 15 years... I just registered here due to Blair Morgan's tragic accident to spread some of my thoughts on the increasing number of professional rider injuries as of late.

I'm not sure what the specifics of his wreck were. And what I mean by that is that each wreck has a series of events that make it what it was (not every wreck is the same and each have a unique set of variables in contrast to other wrecks). However, Statistically speaking though, if you look at injury rates lately - at least on the professional level -things do seem to be getting worse.

Now it disturbs me to sit back and watch as more and more riders severely injure themselves. This wreck appears to be the worst this year thus far for a professional racer, but this season has to be the worst season as far as factory riders sitting out on the bench goes.


Here is something I typed after Mike Alessi's crash this summer....

"We can all agree the AMA has done some pretty stupid stuff in the past; I just happen to believe the people who set the rule in stone for the new displacement size of "big bike" four strokes were not a group of thinkers.

Eventually, there will come a time - just like in other motor-racing sports - when the technology out-weighs human ability, and human safety. When that time comes, actions will be taken to limit the power of these bikes. Maybe it will be ten years from now, maybe it will be twenty, who knows, but the time will come. I just feel (and this is my personal opinion) that the time is now.

Nothing will change anytime soon as far as the power output of these bikes go - so I'm not looking forward to it, or expecting anything. Instead, we will sit back and watch as more and more top factory riders continue to destroy themselves trying to run a pace on these machines that only a handful of the people on the planet have reached. If riders continue to get injured at this rate, eventually the cause and the solution will be so obvious to everyone that something will eventually happen. Hopefully, it's just minor injuries like we have been seeing lately, instead of more cases like Ernesto Fonseca. In NASCAR, it took the death of racing legend Dale Earnhardt to snap everybody into action concerning new safety standards, when something could have been done long before the sport mourned the death of on of their greatest hero’s.

I think the reason so many riders are injured, now than ever, especially since the 450 take-over, is due to the power of these machines. 250cc two strokes seemed kind of like racing with restrictor plates compared to the way things are now. Riders were able to ride those things to their limit, and it showed with the aggressive style they rode those bikes.

I always remember a few factory riders being out during a supercross or motocross season, but now more riders are out than ever. Factory teams are losing all their riders due to injury and having to hire "3rd and 4th" string riders (metaphorically) just to fill the spot.

Take Mike Alessi's crash for instance. He said himself that he was trying to pass James back immediately and went too fast. All year long he's talked about not riding over his head etc. in a lot of the post race interviews I’ve watched. But from what he said about his recent crash, he was so caught up in the moment he went all out for a moment trying to take the lead. Maybe if he was on a RM250, he wouldn't have been allowed to reach a speed in that area of the track that was apparently over his head.

That may sound stupid to some, but the point is. People are more prone to crash when they are riding over there head. And lately over the past several years, it almost appears that these machines have so much power it allows pros to ride over their heads, more so now than in the past. They all have the same goal: to put in good results, but while doing so on these incredibly powerful machines they seem to be dropping like flies.

I still firmly believe James, Chad Reed, and Ricky Carmichael are really the only people in America able to ride these machines to their limit. I remember Mike Gossler, during Ricky's fuel crisis, saying they have no need to cheat because the bikes almost have too much power.


So, it seems like this slew of professional motocross riders are some of the worst at keeping it on two wheels. Or the bikes may have a bit too much power, and I highly doubt it is the first."

~ End



yeah free helicopter rides are not to uncommon at that track
Oldmotoguy
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9/22/2008 9:00pm
there are just too many jumps and riders get tired

there are way more jumps compared to the old days
TerryK
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9/22/2008 9:15pm
Motocross is a dangerous sport. Period. No matter what size the bike, a paralyzing injury is always possible. It's the nature of the beast. Any sport that involves speed, height, or a number of other factors can and will cause injuries. More people are paralyzed in football, hockey or bicycling than MX. ( however more people compete in those sports)

My point is, if you can fall, or hit something/someone, you run the risk of a spinal cord injury, no matter what the sport.
Jabjr222
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9/22/2008 9:16pm
It is the power delivery, like I said, you would hardly see a beginner even contemplate riding a 500cc bike, yet you can see lots riding...
It is the power delivery, like I said, you would hardly see a beginner even contemplate riding a 500cc bike, yet you can see lots riding 450s!! By ride, I mean ride, not putt around!!

Yes, I agree with the gentleman that said it is easier to ride a250F way over one's head than a 450, there is enough available power to clear anything form just a blip of the throttle!!
I got ya... I had a buddy with an '88 KX500 that I rode a few times... They are brutal. I wouldn't argue that the power delivery isn't more brutal, but how do they match in overall hp?
Jabjr222
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9/22/2008 9:26pm
Every time I had a really bad crash where I got hurt, I was doing something totally stupid... The bike had nothing to do with as I was even on a 125. It's a dangerous sport and when you lose your head, you crash. Of course, shit jumps up and bites you every now and then, or other riders play a role...

Which begs the question, what causes the majority of crashes? They seem to be classifiable. Gather data and break it down from there. Then address the individual causes. It would be complex but maybe a worthy study. The data doesn't exist now and would take years to compile but it could address a lot of things; dangerous riding, fast bikes, poor tracks, bad suspension; flaggers; safety gear (neck braces). Do a sampling and extrapolate. Volunteers?
9/22/2008 9:37pm
The problem is that you can go get screwed up on a 125 -- crashes happen and often times they happen because riders are riding over their heads. But sometimes (as Bailey and Fonseca proved) even smart riders can go down. When you go down, you never know what is going to happen -- it can be a slow crash and a freak thing and you are done.

I remember when Bailey was paralyzed, I rode 80's at the time and Bailey was (and still is) my hero. I remember riding after I heard the news and thinking as I was riding, "Man, that's pretty scary, anything can happen." I also remember thinking, "If I am going to ride like this and think about that (what happened to Bailey) I might as well hang it up." I realized then that we all take chances and riding dirt bikes was worth the chance to me -- I never looked back and I don't ride thinking about those things.
Lightning78
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9/22/2008 9:48pm
The problem I had with riding the 450's is not necessairly the power but the weight and inertia they carry at speed, most of their weight is carried too high up in the frome so when you get a slam from a 450 the impact in downright nasty. Picture hitting a nail with a sledgehammer (450) and hitting one with a framing hammer (250t or 250f) which one at the same velocity will drive the nail further? 450's are easier to ride than a 500 2t but the impact for example on a highside crash will do some damage...
todder
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9/22/2008 10:03pm Edited Date/Time 9/22/2008 10:04pm
MX7MX wrote:
The internet makes hearing of this news WAY easier than ever before, back then when there was no internet, how often did you hear of those...
The internet makes hearing of this news WAY easier than ever before, back then when there was no internet, how often did you hear of those things happening Dave?
That is a good point. It was mostly Cycle News and those type of reports you just didn't hear about if it wasn't near you.
9/23/2008 3:14am
Tiki wrote:
I love these threads. They come up annually. For the smart guys out there: 1000 bikes go over the same track with the same bumps with...
I love these threads. They come up annually.

For the smart guys out there: 1000 bikes go over the same track with the same bumps with the same bikes. One person gets seriously injured, and this is the bikes fault?

HOW?
Agreed,

Well, well something has to be responsible so say the whiners out there and since blaming an injured rider is never appropriate, let's blame the bike.

In interviews with many riders with irreversible injuries most after a while say "I used poor judgement".

mavs
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9/23/2008 3:53am
10 years ago plus some doug henry busted his back and was kissed on the nuts by a fairy not to have done permanent damage so flarider to say that they didnt happen back then is wrong in in the early nineties in oz a local pro became a paraplegic

alessi said he rode over his limit and he paid the price
5 years ago i rode over my limit on my 125 and paid the price broken tib and fib and crushed t6 and t7 yep i was lucky no permanent damage
2 years ago i rode over my head on my 250f broken femur

people have been hurting themselves always.

the risk is one of the things that makes motocross attractive after i busted my back i went and raced cars......boring it was like a cocoon in there all the roll cage and everything i no longer got the rush even though i was doing 3x the speed

450 are not the problem YOT didnt have a team for half the year and they were not running 450s

It is up to us the rider the person who twists the throttle and no one else pros and amateurs make mistakes and now with the supercross style tracks the one mistake usually is a bigger result than back in the old scrambler type days but i like to ride tracks with jumps to me it is more fun and that is the risk I am willing to take

Oul Han
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9/23/2008 4:05am
Too powerful, too heavy, too noisy, and they are destroying tracks and racing, bring back the two strokes!!!
JPT
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9/23/2008 4:19am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 8:32pm
Go watch On Any Sunday and see what we were doing on bikes in the late 60's early 70's. Then go out and see what the average weekend racer is expected to do these days. And don't even start on what the pro's are expected to do. Back then a death or life changing injury was usually a fluke.

The type's of injuries and the frequencies I hear the guys on here talking about having are much worse than most of the ones we had when I was racing. Back then you could race 5-6 years and expect to get off without a serious injury. Can you say that now?

Tiki I can't say exactly when it changed, but it has. It's not just the power of the bikes, it's what they can do over all. Just like Dave said.
9/23/2008 5:22am
you as a rider have to know your limits. i ride a 450. i dont see how its too much power. but if i get overly tired, then i find myself getting into trouble. you have to know when to shut it down.
JustMX
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9/23/2008 6:01am
flarider wrote:
The power makes it too easy to do too much, to jump to far, to go to fast, to hit something to hard. Every motorsport in...
The power makes it too easy to do too much, to jump to far, to go to fast, to hit something to hard.

Every motorsport in the world has taken steps at one time or another to slow the equipment and tracks down, except for motocross

Tracks are an issue
Suspension is an issue
Horsepower is an issue

This sport needs to figure out whatever it is and fix it fast, or the Fed will step in and do it...and that will not be pretty.

If you do not believe me, look up "ATC's and the CPSC"
The first sentence is spot on.

Sure the tracks have changed a bit, but they are way behind on adjusting for how much better the bikes have gotten.

All the bikes, all the way across the board have gotten way too fast.

Kids on 50cc bikes are jumping stuff C riders weren't jumping 15 years ago.

If a rider started out on a 125cc two stroke they were limited by their ability to use the clutch and keep their speed up.

Now any 15 year old can hop on a 250f (or even worse a 450) and get an trouble very quickly.

The powers that be have failed this sport in so many ways, but letting the bikes get so fast at the amateur level will be one of our most serious regrets down the road.

At least the AMA has finally seen the light and are holding firm on 150Fs in the mini classes.

We are getting away from the sport I fell in love with 30 years ago.

We used to be able to tell people that it wasn't as dangerous as they thought.

That it was a sport where technique and practice were the most important.

That it was the motorsport that favored rider ability more than any other. We have all heard 90% rider, 10% machine.

That it was the most affordable racing.

None of this is as true as it once was.
KAWboy14
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9/23/2008 6:02am Edited Date/Time 9/23/2008 6:03am
flarider wrote:
The power makes it too easy to do too much, to jump to far, to go to fast, to hit something to hard. Every motorsport in...
The power makes it too easy to do too much, to jump to far, to go to fast, to hit something to hard.

Every motorsport in the world has taken steps at one time or another to slow the equipment and tracks down, except for motocross

Tracks are an issue
Suspension is an issue
Horsepower is an issue

This sport needs to figure out whatever it is and fix it fast, or the Fed will step in and do it...and that will not be pretty.

If you do not believe me, look up "ATC's and the CPSC"
all they have to do is fix the sprocket sizes as a rule! smaller if front bigger in back!
-eagle-
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9/23/2008 6:08am
Tracks not the bikes

In an sx crash you land like a lawn dart
In an mx crash you ragdoll for a while

When your momentum comes to an abrupt stop its more likely to do core damage.
When its dispursed over a long tumble it is more likely to do limb damage.

Nothing to do with the bikes. A poor handling 500 two stroke is twice as powerful and handles twice as bad as a modern 450. Difference being they were ridden in open rough tracks, not a stadium full of jagged aligator teeth.
user760a
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9/23/2008 6:23am
I was tempted to say that the 450 is somewhat to blame but upon further consideration, I believe track design plays a much larger role, and it is only going to get worse as the MX elite continue to blow off outdoor MX and embrace SX only deals- this will only make younger riders that much more determined to jump tricky stuff that maybe they are not ready for. Not everyone was born with the talent of a #4 or a #7...

Need more proof? Go dig out some racing tapes from the 80's or 90's....compare the track from 15 or 20 yrs ago to what is common now- they looked like special test grass tracks with a few knolls to hop thrown in for good measure. Maybe not so much in the 90's but you can see the progression toward more jump oriented, technical tracks.

Personally I love tricky jumps but the truth is that loads of confidence inspiring power and large tricky sx style jumps can make for a much worse crash than what may have happened 20 yrs ago on a 35 HP 235 pound 2-stroke ridden on a much tamer track
9/23/2008 6:28am
i broke my collar bone riding a bmx bike.
9/23/2008 7:07am
I never contemplated the size of the bikes or the tracks until My son started having an interest in riding. He's just now learning on an old KX60 but I'm finding it hard to find places other than the open field by our house to teach him. I'm not wanting all tracks toned down for 60 beginner but most of these tracks around us, I wont even let him putt around on.

Example: My 9y/o son and I went riding at a track with some friends this weekend. I had not been to this track in a long time and I was shocked at what they changed it into. It used to be a nice long MX track with huge bowl turns and decent straights with some minor jumps mixed in. It was a novice track but it was fun and had some pretty good flow. I figured it would be a perfect track for him to increase his skills and confidence. Fast forward a few years and now the track is a 1/4 the size it was and filled with jumps I wouldn't attempt on my 450. The thing that really got me was there were only 2 other big bikes out there; the rest were 60s.

We spent our time on the old track even though it was overgorwn with weeds and only had one line. It was still fun just being able to ride with my son but I doubt we will be going back. I find it's getting harder and harder to find a decent track to coach my son to ride on. He's still getting used to the powerband and clutch so it looks like for a while we will just be riding figure 8s in an open field.

For the first time, I'm actually not too wild about him racing because of the tracks.
level
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9/23/2008 7:24am
The case with Blair Morgan-it was a jump and wreck that most people would of gotten up from. I'm sure Morgan has been in alot more ugly looking accidents and walked away. However, this one paralyzed him. That's scary. Sometimes it doesn't even take a big jump or a big bike for something like this to happen. I would love to see them start developing more equipment to protect the back. The chest protectors only go down about half way and probably aren't enough protection.

I think what we need is better protection for our bodies. The neck brace was a good start, now they need to work on something to protect the back and stomach area.
The Rock
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9/23/2008 7:29am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 8:32pm
Jabjr222 wrote:
How does the HP match between the 450s and the old, OLD 500 2 smokers? I think this might be bullshit but I have been wrong...
How does the HP match between the 450s and the old, OLD 500 2 smokers? I think this might be bullshit but I have been wrong before.
Here is the answer to your question:


http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/...&type=news&mod=News& mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=A206F396F0134C4A950B361256260C33


It is the tracks more so than the bikes.


Course design in both SX and MX needs to change IMO. At the top of the sport the factory teams' practice tracks take out their riders on a regularly basis and SX tracks have gotten way out of hand.


SX obstacles have no business on a outdoor track. We lose amateur riders all over the US because they just have to try this double or triple meanwhile increasing their corner speed is not even considered since they're so jump focused.


Ought to be a law I tell you........(spoken in crotchety old voice)
ncdirtrider
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9/23/2008 7:30am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 8:32pm
Bike size is made relevant by the track. You can have a blast and have very close and competitive racing with a gate full of stock XR100s on a track designed well. You may get a lot more block passing, etc, but it is fun and fun to watch. The tracks are way out of hand IMO. The outdoor tracks should be a lot longer, the jumps should all be singles, even if some of them are huge and high speed, it is not as bad as coming up short on a double, triple, or quad. Full protective equipment should be mandatory across the gate, especially in the Pros. And lastly, flaggers (yes, this again) ... there should be flaggers that travel with the tour who's eyes never leave the section they are assigned to watch and are ON THE SPOT when a rider goes down. No one should get landed on except maybe by a rider directly behind them that is already going air-born when they go down. Back to the tracks though, I think MX tracks should be a lot more like road racing tracks except with some large singles, steep uphills, deep corners, and switchbacks to slow them down.


Problem is the industry seems convinced that the crowd needs the carnival type thrills of seeing riders triple a section. While it is cool & fun to watch (when they make it), it isn't worth what can happen when they don't. Unfortunately, while few admit it, many spectators love seeing the gnarly crash, just as in any motorsport. It's just 'heavy' for them when the rider/driver doesn't walk away.
The Rock
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9/23/2008 7:39am
level wrote:
The case with Blair Morgan-it was a jump and wreck that most people would of gotten up from. I'm sure Morgan has been in alot more...
The case with Blair Morgan-it was a jump and wreck that most people would of gotten up from. I'm sure Morgan has been in alot more ugly looking accidents and walked away. However, this one paralyzed him. That's scary. Sometimes it doesn't even take a big jump or a big bike for something like this to happen. I would love to see them start developing more equipment to protect the back. The chest protectors only go down about half way and probably aren't enough protection.

I think what we need is better protection for our bodies. The neck brace was a good start, now they need to work on something to protect the back and stomach area.
Great point Kemosabe about the back protection!

It will take me a week or two but I will get a picture of the back protection that is mandated in Sweden.

BTW, I am a RXR wearer and couldn't feel safer when I ride.

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