Rethink the four stroke, the future?

kiwifan
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kiwifan 10/15/2013 8:43pm
10/15/2013 8:43pm
Harry_Gray wrote:
In regards to the original intent of the post; they're here and we're going to have to deal w/ them. But another person posted an interesting...
In regards to the original intent of the post; they're here and we're going to have to deal w/ them. But another person posted an interesting point: Buy the KTM's or the Husky two strokes or the two stroke YZ's if you're inclined to do so. We can sit here and talk about things but if you aren't happy w/ the four strokes, don't buy them. Simple as that. They're are still a lot of two strokes out there that are available to the general public. Yes, you won't see the Two-Strokes in the SX/MX series (with the exception of a few die-hard supporters campaigning them) but at the local/regional level, ride/race them to you're hearts' content. Unless you're trying to get a LL/Amateur title or getting a factory ride w/ one of the Big Five, buy what you want, race/ride what you want.
isnt that what people do now? If they want a 2 stroke they get one, if they want a 4 stroke they get one .... that hasnt changed the AMA rules so obviously thats not solving the 'problem'
Trav138
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Trav138 10/15/2013 8:48pm
10/15/2013 8:48pm
Has anybody noticed its the same people bitching about the bitching. The same people in all the 2vs 4 threads come in and blah,blah,blah. If its that annoying to you stay the fuck away from it, its not that hard don't click on it but you can't resist.
dantheman
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dantheman 10/15/2013 9:06pm
10/15/2013 9:06pm
Hello, Vital Nostrodumbass here and this is what I predict for the future:

Local tracks will continue to close, along with the "local" MX scene drying up. Issues revolving around households(Mom's, Dad's... hell most everyone) not being able to afford it being a big factor. We'll move on.

Afterall, there are only two 40 man gates at each National! Whether you have 1000 contestants to draw from or 50,000 it makes no difference, you will fill those gates. Hell even the GP's continue on, and "expand", and they can't even fill 40 gates!

Growing the sport does not equate with revitalizing it in a grass roots effort, thus making the sport more affordable and readily competitive for those starting or with Pro aspirations. This has been implied and stated by both GuyB and Davey. It simply means increasing paid sponsors and VIEWERSHIP! Hard core minority motofans means little, think NasCRAP. HUGE "spectator" fanbase for digesting all the advertisements and product placements. In essence, buy their stuff! Then the races will carry on.

If that doesn't succeed, well... implosion back to less than the way it was, but with no more same day LIVE TV coverage or... worse.

Bikes will never come back down in price, and the only good a resurrection of 2 strokes would be that catastrophic failures(head/valve train costing thousand+) would be less of a financial burden. But you will pay the same amount for a "new" and improved 2 stroke as you would a 4 stroke if that were to happen.

Why would Japanese OEM's go back to selling MORE of a product for less money when they can perfectly sell LESS of a product for substantially more money!!! Parts and services included.

And aftermarket companies, FFS... 1300.00 DUALS for both(250/450) 2014 Honda's right? Do you realize what percentage of cost that is in regards to the actual bike. A KX250 back in the day was what??? 5200.00 and exhaust for it was what??? 250.00, a little more?

Now these are just "thoughts" of what I think will happen, and is happening, but it matters little to me. As I'm 49 and a few years back I just got tired of being hurt bad once each year Sad I didn't want to settle by "slowing down" and still riding. I know what you're thinking and I will say, "everyone" has their own "fast" speed, and you know when you are not doing that. It sucks. So I stopped riding. I miss it, but also when the economy was crashed in "2008" I lost most of my riding buddies anyway Sad

What's the point in all of this??? Nothing I guess Wink The writing's on the wall but they used invisible ink to hide it, we just can't see it yet!

Hell, or maybe... I'm jus' full of shit Tongue Time will tell.
mxb2
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mxb2 10/15/2013 9:44pm
10/15/2013 9:44pm
burn1986 wrote:
Keep in mind that GrapeApe and mxb2 obviously have plenty of money to throw at bikes.
All good here burn1986, hope to have a new smoker in the near future to add to my stable. I love the sport and all mx bikes, and spend money on them. Life is short ,ride while you can.and you are right I have some money dropped in my bikes.

The Shop

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HenryA
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HenryA 10/16/2013 2:16am
10/16/2013 2:16am
I get your point, what I don't get is why 2 strokes are so freakin' expensive. They are indeed easier to work on, but every bike out there, except from the KTM, is really outdated. And for the average joe, a four stroke is much easier to go fast on. Compare a KTM 2013 450 to a KTM 2013 250 2-stroke and it's almost silly how much easier it's to go fast on the 450. Still, no one will touch the 450 in 4 years. Wich is kinda strange, it could be the evolving of the 4-stroke that could come in to play here, we have seen a lot of changes just the past 5 years. Fuel injection, air forks, launch control etc. So in 5 years the bike will be outdated and no one wants to buy it. But the 2-stroke engine is pretty much the same since 10 years back.

Idk if I would buy a bike that's slower and harder to ride even if it's easier to work on. A 4-stroke engine is not rocket science, but it's getting more complicated, that's for sure.

Stumbled across a crf250 -11 for 18500sek (2.8k$) yesterday, below was a cr125 -02 and that guy was asking 20000sek(3.1k$). What the fuck?
DrSweden
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DrSweden 10/16/2013 2:24am
10/16/2013 2:24am
CR250Rider wrote:
"The sum of the above crap is that I think the OEM has missed an essential point. I'm not only as a rider I buy, I'm...
"The sum of the above crap is that I think the OEM has missed an essential point. I'm not only as a rider I buy, I'm hobby mechanic as well. The whole point with motors and racing is also to wrench, the entry of four strokes killed that part. The previous glory in buying a bike, restore it, or buy a new, and restore it, show the creation and then race it was for many the essence. Not all agree, but how many people here rides, hasn't felt at least some appeal to do a top end job. Now, the fear of the complexity kills that. Some are ven hocked up with an PC on the track to change the engine maps, and sending the head away has no guarantee to be a success. If we get another season with the valves in spec, we are lucky. At least thats the feeling, our faith are in the hands of some guy (sorry, but most likely with ADHD) that we don't know, the only certainly is that it will cost us tons of money"


Thats a good point I haven't seen in words. Buying new tools for thumpers andkeeping up with the peculiarities of each new model year takes a toll. It's quite an investment.... Hobby mechanic defines me
Glad we agree. I guess some people are wired differently, if a gadget breaks, I want to fix it, they idea of throwing away, rent some other persons skills just because someone thought it was nessesary to add a computer to the blender makes me frustrated. Maybe wrong, but any modern engine has become to much to handle, I'm fine with that when it comes to the family car since that means better mpg and no passion in wrenching that turd anyway. But the previous working with a 64 1/2 Mustang yourself to working to whatever will be a classic in 30 years that needs 4 new CPUs that no one gets other than its a black plastic box is hard to grasp. Dirt bikes have been some sort of hands off, but now it's a brave new world were people end up changing the black box and have no clue what is damaged. And for me the high tech angle has done nothing for the sport other than maybe make the privateers having a 450 that is closer to factory. But those benefitting are lesser in numbers than those not benefitting. I don't like to see ABS, auto trannys, traction control etc in this hobby. But again if a majority dig that, I have to accept it. Just hope there will be a primitive bike in the line-up as well.
themrtoad
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themrtoad 10/16/2013 3:18am
10/16/2013 3:18am
Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki are giant companies that lost touch with their market. Perhaps they feel the market is too small(quantity) to listen to all demands on the amateur level. Therefore they do not have a good choice for 50cc-65cc-85cc(Honda 150? nobody wants them) and twostroke 125-250-300.

These are entry level bikes, and they are also easier to maintain than fourstrokes. A lot of consumers choose to pick up a KTM/Yamaha/Husqvarna instead. These brands listen to the market, or at least they are better suited to make a profit on products in small quantity.

What I listed in the 2nd phrase is good for motocross. What I listed in the first phrase is for hardcore racers. More often than not a machine starts in the group of hardcore racers, and after x hours ends up in the group of weekend warriors. Nowadays the weekend warriors are fed up fourstrokes. This can't be good for the market in anyway. We are all victims whether we are hardcore racers( low resale value) Weekend warriors( Overpriced used twostrokes)

When things are like this I find it amazing that we still let Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki dictate the terms. Ther are not in touch with their market and not the ones we should ask. They want minimum loss, not maximum gain.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 10/16/2013 4:30am
10/16/2013 4:30am
themrtoad wrote:
Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki are giant companies that lost touch with their market. Perhaps they feel the market is too small(quantity) to listen to all demands on the amateur...
Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki are giant companies that lost touch with their market. Perhaps they feel the market is too small(quantity) to listen to all demands on the amateur level. Therefore they do not have a good choice for 50cc-65cc-85cc(Honda 150? nobody wants them) and twostroke 125-250-300.

These are entry level bikes, and they are also easier to maintain than fourstrokes. A lot of consumers choose to pick up a KTM/Yamaha/Husqvarna instead. These brands listen to the market, or at least they are better suited to make a profit on products in small quantity.

What I listed in the 2nd phrase is good for motocross. What I listed in the first phrase is for hardcore racers. More often than not a machine starts in the group of hardcore racers, and after x hours ends up in the group of weekend warriors. Nowadays the weekend warriors are fed up fourstrokes. This can't be good for the market in anyway. We are all victims whether we are hardcore racers( low resale value) Weekend warriors( Overpriced used twostrokes)

When things are like this I find it amazing that we still let Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki dictate the terms. Ther are not in touch with their market and not the ones we should ask. They want minimum loss, not maximum gain.
True dat. Dunno why our line of thinking can be so wrong for others. Maybe it's a cash thing? Despite being a doctor, I make less than average in the us. For someone making 100k a year, it's no bigge to buy a new bike for 6k, ask for help with valves from the local shop is no fincial burden, and all spare parts are half the price including gas in contrast to Sweden were the average salary is less, and a new bike cost about 10-11k depending on the dollar. I think I would be a bit more whatever if I could buy a new 13 model for 6-7k I and a left over 10-12 for even less. Seems we are forced to put in much more thought in our purchase, think long term? Our situation is the extreme version of how some might feel in the US? Kind of frustrating as well in buying a new 13, know we have to keep for 4 seasons because it's worth shit after 30 hours only to see the new fantastic 14-model appear shortly that make our 10k buy that we have to stick with loose the aura that made us to outside the comfort zone to start with.

Well we talk in circles. It's all good I guess, maybe more people are happy than frustrated, and I can still buy a new simple smoker for many years to come...
burn1986
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burn1986 10/16/2013 5:28am
10/16/2013 5:28am
burn1986 wrote:
Keep in mind that GrapeApe and mxb2 obviously have plenty of money to throw at bikes.
mxb2 wrote:
All good here burn1986, hope to have a new smoker in the near future to add to my stable. I love the sport and all mx...
All good here burn1986, hope to have a new smoker in the near future to add to my stable. I love the sport and all mx bikes, and spend money on them. Life is short ,ride while you can.and you are right I have some money dropped in my bikes.
Well, we have to come up with something. I've been thinking over the last couple of days what pitch to give the factories and what I think would be a doable plan. It would be nice to have everyone who signed the petition write a letter to Honda and KTM to express their concerns.
Markee
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Markee 10/16/2013 5:52am
10/16/2013 5:52am
Here in the states you got guys that don't ever own a bike, swipe the card, race the shit out of it and sell it. Has been like that for years and years. It has never been cheap. But I disagree a new bike is shit after 30 hours, this your experience?

Motocross to me is 1/3 bike prep 1/3 Riding and 1/3 reflecting on the ride good or bad. I'm a mechanic for a living and run a small fabrication business on my off time http://www.kilbydeuce.com . The excuse that the 4 stroke is so complicated is just not so. Get the timing chain out the way, and pow you have a head, cylinder, piston and rings just like a 2 stroke. Whats the big deal? Valve clearance, use your manual and check and adjust.

People tend to shy away when a manual talks about thousandths of a inch. They tend to get into a replace mode as a form of repair, instead of a diagnostic mode to check parts for wear. Example, toke down a 1982 shovehead motor because I expected a valve not seating due to exhaust reverison (sucking back into combustion chamber). Yes its a single cam vtwin 80ci 4 stroke. Well i found my problem with a 5 dollar set of feeler gauges to find .006 air gap on exhaust valve. While I had it down I checked my piston and cylinders for tolerance no mater what the book or hours/miles is on the motor. 1982 now, piston was in .001 and cylinder was perfect on the money.

Buying tools for a job will always save you money. If you make your special tools, you doing even better. But feeler gauges, and various measuring tools are not special when it comes to any kind of motor, its a must.
JPT
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JPT 10/16/2013 6:15am
10/16/2013 6:15am
Doc, it all started to go to hell when you guys let Husky go.
themrtoad
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themrtoad 10/16/2013 7:31am
10/16/2013 7:31am
There are lot's of posters that make perfectly good sense in here. We try to explain in a logical way why we think motocross took a wrong turn when we went fourstroke. Then we repeat ourselfes, and try to express it in a slightly different way.

It's obvious that logic doesn't apply here. There are forces in the puzzle that somehow thinks status quo is fine.

I can see their motives kind of...DC doesn't wanna jeopardize the cashflow in his business. Honda doesn't want to go through all the problem of offering twostroke motocross to sell maybe 10.000 units worldwide etc.

What I can't understand is Average Joe defending a system that makes our sport louder and more expensive. What are your motives? Are you looking for a job at the pressdepartment at MX Sports or Honda off-road?

I'm sorry to break it to you, but it probably aint gonna happen since our sport is getting smaller and smaller as we speak due to economical problems and tracks getting shut down. Maybe DC will give you his job if you defend him really well?
Motocross83 10/16/2013 8:45am
10/16/2013 8:45am
Aside from 4 strokes, I think the sport's just become so damn expensive in general. Not saying 4 strokes aren't partly (mostly?) responsible for that but as already mentioned, the current economic state is so appalling that all of us ordinary people have felt the squeeze. Don't know how it is over in the U.S but I remember showing up at local tracks on my 98 YZ 125 years ago - the entry fee was £15, you could park wherever you wanted and ride straight through the pits. Nowadays you're looking at £25 - £30 just to ride, crowded pits, group sessions, and of course potentially expensive bike failures. I'll always adore the sport but there's no doubt I enjoyed it a whole lot more back in the day. Whether it be 4 stroke or 2, I doubt that most people can really afford to spend the best part of 10 grand every year on their hobby. Yamaha want just over £6,000 for a new YZ 250 these days.
Mitch_Berger
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Mitch_Berger 10/16/2013 8:55am
10/16/2013 8:55am
here is my 3 cents worth
350 and 250 4 strokes are easier to ride
2 strokes are more fun to ride and easier on the bank account
4 strokes will earn you more southwest cc miles
dkg
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dkg 10/16/2013 9:35am
10/16/2013 9:35am
DrSweden wrote:
To sum it, four strokes are to complex to work on, doesn't matter if we get 100 hours out of them, it has killed resales, and...
To sum it, four strokes are to complex to work on, doesn't matter if we get 100 hours out of them, it has killed resales, and as a consequence affects sales. Logic says there's a correlation.
What about the idea of planned obsolescence? ("planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time. Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor who might also rely on planned obsolescence. For an industry, planned obsolescence stimulates demand by encouraging purchasers to buy sooner if they still want a functioning product.")

Just an extrapolation from your comment. Shouldn't really apply here as the the machines can be rebuilt however, could be planned obsolescence with a cost/benefit variable. I hate trying to spell "obsolescence" right consistently. Sick
GeorgiePorgie 10/16/2013 10:10am
10/16/2013 10:10am
Sounds like you need to buy a bike in the US and have it shipped to Sweden. Might be cheaper.
Markee
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Markee 10/16/2013 10:31am
10/16/2013 10:31am
themrtoad wrote:
There are lot's of posters that make perfectly good sense in here. We try to explain in a logical way why we think motocross took a...
There are lot's of posters that make perfectly good sense in here. We try to explain in a logical way why we think motocross took a wrong turn when we went fourstroke. Then we repeat ourselfes, and try to express it in a slightly different way.

It's obvious that logic doesn't apply here. There are forces in the puzzle that somehow thinks status quo is fine.

I can see their motives kind of...DC doesn't wanna jeopardize the cashflow in his business. Honda doesn't want to go through all the problem of offering twostroke motocross to sell maybe 10.000 units worldwide etc.

What I can't understand is Average Joe defending a system that makes our sport louder and more expensive. What are your motives? Are you looking for a job at the pressdepartment at MX Sports or Honda off-road?

I'm sorry to break it to you, but it probably aint gonna happen since our sport is getting smaller and smaller as we speak due to economical problems and tracks getting shut down. Maybe DC will give you his job if you defend him really well?
The sport is getting smaller because people and society in general aways steer towards mediocrity and laziness. People go to college to work inside, not out. They work out to be social accepted as "hot" "in shape" not as a body to be used as tool for a job or sport. These are general terms for the masses. Motocross is a niche market and always will be.

"You hate fourstrokes"? Really. You hate your car or truck? How about a vtwin harley davidson or a inline 4 Japanese sport bike? How about a V5 superbike? How about a good old honda XR 100?

The milk has gone sour and its your attitude, not a motorcycle. You get mad when a 50 year old man passes you on a 4 stroke? You probably blame it on the industry huh? Not yourself, or possibly that 50 year old man rips on what ever he rides.

The average Joe is you.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 10/16/2013 10:38am
10/16/2013 10:38am
burn1986 wrote:
Keep in mind that GrapeApe and mxb2 obviously have plenty of money to throw at bikes.
mxb2 wrote:
All good here burn1986, hope to have a new smoker in the near future to add to my stable. I love the sport and all mx...
All good here burn1986, hope to have a new smoker in the near future to add to my stable. I love the sport and all mx bikes, and spend money on them. Life is short ,ride while you can.and you are right I have some money dropped in my bikes.
burn1986 wrote:
Well, we have to come up with something. I've been thinking over the last couple of days what pitch to give the factories and what I...
Well, we have to come up with something. I've been thinking over the last couple of days what pitch to give the factories and what I think would be a doable plan. It would be nice to have everyone who signed the petition write a letter to Honda and KTM to express their concerns.
Not sure why you would just write to Honda and KTM, why not Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki??? And while you are writing to Yamaha please thank them for introducing the YZ400F, that started this whole movement to four strokes whether Honda haters like it or not ....if you cant be bothered writing to them then build a bridge and get over it.

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kiwifan
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kiwifan 10/16/2013 10:40am
10/16/2013 10:40am
themrtoad wrote:
There are lot's of posters that make perfectly good sense in here. We try to explain in a logical way why we think motocross took a...
There are lot's of posters that make perfectly good sense in here. We try to explain in a logical way why we think motocross took a wrong turn when we went fourstroke. Then we repeat ourselfes, and try to express it in a slightly different way.

It's obvious that logic doesn't apply here. There are forces in the puzzle that somehow thinks status quo is fine.

I can see their motives kind of...DC doesn't wanna jeopardize the cashflow in his business. Honda doesn't want to go through all the problem of offering twostroke motocross to sell maybe 10.000 units worldwide etc.

What I can't understand is Average Joe defending a system that makes our sport louder and more expensive. What are your motives? Are you looking for a job at the pressdepartment at MX Sports or Honda off-road?

I'm sorry to break it to you, but it probably aint gonna happen since our sport is getting smaller and smaller as we speak due to economical problems and tracks getting shut down. Maybe DC will give you his job if you defend him really well?
Markee wrote:
The sport is getting smaller because people and society in general aways steer towards mediocrity and laziness. People go to college to work inside, not out...
The sport is getting smaller because people and society in general aways steer towards mediocrity and laziness. People go to college to work inside, not out. They work out to be social accepted as "hot" "in shape" not as a body to be used as tool for a job or sport. These are general terms for the masses. Motocross is a niche market and always will be.

"You hate fourstrokes"? Really. You hate your car or truck? How about a vtwin harley davidson or a inline 4 Japanese sport bike? How about a V5 superbike? How about a good old honda XR 100?

The milk has gone sour and its your attitude, not a motorcycle. You get mad when a 50 year old man passes you on a 4 stroke? You probably blame it on the industry huh? Not yourself, or possibly that 50 year old man rips on what ever he rides.

The average Joe is you.
And you do realise that venting in a forum here will not change what the OEMs produce dont you? when the YZ400F's first came out if people hadnt brought them in droves then the other OEM's would of not folowed suit...
themrtoad
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themrtoad 10/16/2013 12:40pm
10/16/2013 12:40pm Edited Date/Time 10/16/2013 12:44pm
Markee wrote:
The sport is getting smaller because people and society in general aways steer towards mediocrity and laziness. People go to college to work inside, not out...
The sport is getting smaller because people and society in general aways steer towards mediocrity and laziness. People go to college to work inside, not out. They work out to be social accepted as "hot" "in shape" not as a body to be used as tool for a job or sport. These are general terms for the masses. Motocross is a niche market and always will be.

"You hate fourstrokes"? Really. You hate your car or truck? How about a vtwin harley davidson or a inline 4 Japanese sport bike? How about a V5 superbike? How about a good old honda XR 100?

The milk has gone sour and its your attitude, not a motorcycle. You get mad when a 50 year old man passes you on a 4 stroke? You probably blame it on the industry huh? Not yourself, or possibly that 50 year old man rips on what ever he rides.

The average Joe is you.
I am a pretty average rider, but I do live like I preach and preferes twostrokes. I know I can appear to be bitter and quite passionate in this subject on Vital, but wait until you meet me irl. Then you will be forced to listening to me trying to sound like a 250twostroke through the whoops.

I have no trouble with you attacking me. If you dish it out you must be able to take it as well.
After all I'm just a guy who grow up with and on twostrokes. I Think the racing would be more fun with them involved, racing cc for cc of course.

People have passed me on fourstrokes, but I killed all of them after the moto using an old KX500 exhaust. Yes I have used a few since I'm a poor rider, but luckily they cost nothing compared to a 4stroke dito :-)

I obviously don't hate all 4stroke engines, don't be stupid. This is a motocrossforum.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 10/16/2013 12:48pm
10/16/2013 12:48pm
DrSweden wrote:
To sum it, four strokes are to complex to work on, doesn't matter if we get 100 hours out of them, it has killed resales, and...
To sum it, four strokes are to complex to work on, doesn't matter if we get 100 hours out of them, it has killed resales, and as a consequence affects sales. Logic says there's a correlation.
dkg wrote:
What about the idea of planned obsolescence? ("planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a...
What about the idea of planned obsolescence? ("planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time. Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor who might also rely on planned obsolescence. For an industry, planned obsolescence stimulates demand by encouraging purchasers to buy sooner if they still want a functioning product.")

Just an extrapolation from your comment. Shouldn't really apply here as the the machines can be rebuilt however, could be planned obsolescence with a cost/benefit variable. I hate trying to spell "obsolescence" right consistently. Sick
I like your analysis. Watching a defect KX250F/RM250Z from 2004-2005, or the first gen of CRFs has planned obsolescence written all over them, but I doubt that was the intention back then? Just a happy outcome in hindsight that they now maybe have in their business eqation.

Funny thing, when Porsche released the 1976 (?) 911, they went with zinc plated steel body rather than aluminum, because they didn't want them to last forever...
Harry_Gray
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Harry_Gray 10/16/2013 4:35pm
10/16/2013 4:35pm
Harry_Gray wrote:
In regards to the original intent of the post; they're here and we're going to have to deal w/ them. But another person posted an interesting...
In regards to the original intent of the post; they're here and we're going to have to deal w/ them. But another person posted an interesting point: Buy the KTM's or the Husky two strokes or the two stroke YZ's if you're inclined to do so. We can sit here and talk about things but if you aren't happy w/ the four strokes, don't buy them. Simple as that. They're are still a lot of two strokes out there that are available to the general public. Yes, you won't see the Two-Strokes in the SX/MX series (with the exception of a few die-hard supporters campaigning them) but at the local/regional level, ride/race them to you're hearts' content. Unless you're trying to get a LL/Amateur title or getting a factory ride w/ one of the Big Five, buy what you want, race/ride what you want.
kiwifan wrote:
isnt that what people do now? If they want a 2 stroke they get one, if they want a 4 stroke they get one .... that...
isnt that what people do now? If they want a 2 stroke they get one, if they want a 4 stroke they get one .... that hasnt changed the AMA rules so obviously thats not solving the 'problem'
I honestly don't see the AMA budging; I'm sure you would like to see changes to bring back the two strokes, and I would like to as well, but...it's not going to happen anytime soon. As much as I've been critical of the FIM, it seems like they're trying to go in the right direction with this (can't believe I defended the FIM, smh...) and if interest picks up, hopefully the AMA will be receptive to some changes as well. I think the 300cc two strokes would match nicely against the 450 4 strokes. Get some more privateers out there racing and the factories can campaign 4 strokes if they still have a hard-on for them. The reason I'd like to see adjustments made for the two strokes is to get more European OEM's cycled into the US market and consequently, into the AMA SX/MX series. I'd love nothing more to see the big 4 Japanese OEM's mixing it up w/ KTM (which has become a big player in AMA SX/MX now...) and have folks like Husky, TM, etc...get in the mix as well. I'm not anti-two stroke, none at all, I just think we ought to take a more metered approach towards things.
mark_swart
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mark_swart 10/16/2013 6:07pm
10/16/2013 6:07pm
Maybe the future looks like more and more late model 250F chassis with blown engines getting retrofitted with big bore 250cc two stroke engines? I'm pretty sure you could put something decent together for $5K. Didn't the ATV guys go through something similar after the two strokes got discontinued, I seem to remember a huge aftermarket following for especially the Hondas.
mx_563
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mx_563 10/16/2013 6:09pm
10/16/2013 6:09pm Edited Date/Time 10/16/2013 6:11pm
DrSweden wrote:
Sweden is such a small market, but still needs an importer for each brand, and many distributors, dunno about the figures, but I guess they sell...
Sweden is such a small market, but still needs an importer for each brand, and many distributors, dunno about the figures, but I guess they sell about 500 new CRF450 a year? But that's a guess. It means each bike needs 30-50% margins to make sense to import and sell with profit, if u sell 5000 of thease, using the same infrastructure u could decrease profit on each bike but still increase the total profit, in the US Even a Volvo or a spare part is cheaper than in Sweden.

I figure Yamaha would increase sales on the yz250/yz125 if they made a new version, but obviously not enough it seems, or they would already be in that process. I don't get how it works, why KTM does it, build new versions all the time and get away with it though? It's all pretty simple business 101. Don't get why Yamaha still spits them out, while Honda ended? The business angle is impossible to get, no figures are there to absorb. Would be easy to compare KTM, Yamaha and Honda figures, see if actually KTM has benefitted by the void or not or if they spit out new smokers is some kind of goodwill and the bulk are the exc, sxfs.

Next new bike I buy (if ever) will be interesting, but no way on earth will it be the latest model int the local shop. People here buy containers from the US with left overs for 2k less. I can't justify buying a scooter for the same price as a decent family car. But I want to support KTM if I do, because they feel my needs since I want to be able to repair it myself.

I actually looking forward to electic bikes, simply solution, even less work, cheaper construction and hopefully more riding. Maybe those will make a rebirth of the sport?
I am having trouble understanding the business side of it too.

As for electric bikes, I'm sort of looking forward to that as well. I'm within driving distance of BRD Motorcycles, Mission Motors, and Zero. We will see how it works out but so far electric bikes are much more expensive than internal combustion bikes.

As for new bikes, I think I'm done too. No new bikes for me. Luckily I have one of the last RM250s (good reputation) and an 08' CRF450 (also a good reputation). I don't have to hook up a computer to either bike, I don't have to deal with the growing pains of air suspension, and at 39 years of age, I don't have to worry about my race results sucking because I'm on a "bad" bike. The prices of new bikes have "jumped the shark". Sadly, I don't think it is reversible. Even two-stroke prices are ridiculous. I got my 08 450 brand new for ~$6k out the door. Has inflation gone up THAT much in the last 5 years? Is fuel injection THAT much more expensive? The consumers are getting screwed and I'm glad used-2-strokes are becoming popular.
Tiki
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Tiki 10/16/2013 11:04pm
10/16/2013 11:04pm
Two Stroke? Four Stroke? Both are crap! Rotary Bishes!
https://youtu.be/TeQv60OZuP8

She isnt in MX trim, but she sure sounds good.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 10/17/2013 1:09pm
10/17/2013 1:09pm
mx_563 wrote:
I am having trouble understanding the business side of it too. As for electric bikes, I'm sort of looking forward to that as well. I'm within...
I am having trouble understanding the business side of it too.

As for electric bikes, I'm sort of looking forward to that as well. I'm within driving distance of BRD Motorcycles, Mission Motors, and Zero. We will see how it works out but so far electric bikes are much more expensive than internal combustion bikes.

As for new bikes, I think I'm done too. No new bikes for me. Luckily I have one of the last RM250s (good reputation) and an 08' CRF450 (also a good reputation). I don't have to hook up a computer to either bike, I don't have to deal with the growing pains of air suspension, and at 39 years of age, I don't have to worry about my race results sucking because I'm on a "bad" bike. The prices of new bikes have "jumped the shark". Sadly, I don't think it is reversible. Even two-stroke prices are ridiculous. I got my 08 450 brand new for ~$6k out the door. Has inflation gone up THAT much in the last 5 years? Is fuel injection THAT much more expensive? The consumers are getting screwed and I'm glad used-2-strokes are becoming popular.
I hear you. The only new bikes that have been bough among my friends are left overs, or imported left overs from the US. A guy went all crazy and bough a new TM but with a huge discount that made it cheaper than any of the japanese bikes in the store. I was wondering if we are a bunch of poor people, but none of us are, all of us are above normal income. Maybe have always been the deal that a new bike cost the same now as they did 1989 (in contrast to income etc), but for average Joe with a family, buying a dirtbike that is being used on top once a week, is hard to justify at this price? It's either you buy a new car, or a car with a few years on the neck and a dirtbike. That's way I end up buying used bikes for around 3k. If I could find a new one for 5k, I would hit it, but 10k is too much. Even the 8k in the US is to much...

But again, maybe this was the issue previously as well...
The Rock
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The Rock 10/17/2013 1:56pm
10/17/2013 1:56pm Edited Date/Time 10/17/2013 1:58pm
DrSweden wrote:
Sweden is such a small market, but still needs an importer for each brand, and many distributors, dunno about the figures, but I guess they sell...
Sweden is such a small market, but still needs an importer for each brand, and many distributors, dunno about the figures, but I guess they sell about 500 new CRF450 a year? But that's a guess. It means each bike needs 30-50% margins to make sense to import and sell with profit, if u sell 5000 of thease, using the same infrastructure u could decrease profit on each bike but still increase the total profit, in the US Even a Volvo or a spare part is cheaper than in Sweden.

I figure Yamaha would increase sales on the yz250/yz125 if they made a new version, but obviously not enough it seems, or they would already be in that process. I don't get how it works, why KTM does it, build new versions all the time and get away with it though? It's all pretty simple business 101. Don't get why Yamaha still spits them out, while Honda ended? The business angle is impossible to get, no figures are there to absorb. Would be easy to compare KTM, Yamaha and Honda figures, see if actually KTM has benefitted by the void or not or if they spit out new smokers is some kind of goodwill and the bulk are the exc, sxfs.

Next new bike I buy (if ever) will be interesting, but no way on earth will it be the latest model int the local shop. People here buy containers from the US with left overs for 2k less. I can't justify buying a scooter for the same price as a decent family car. But I want to support KTM if I do, because they feel my needs since I want to be able to repair it myself.

I actually looking forward to electic bikes, simply solution, even less work, cheaper construction and hopefully more riding. Maybe those will make a rebirth of the sport?
I am actually looking forward to electric bikes, simply solution, even less work, cheaper construction and hopefully more riding. Maybe those will make a rebirth of the sport?

Whoa cowboy! :-) I'm not ready to sing the praises of electric bikes just yet. Being a sound advocate you'd think I'd be all over electric bikes....and I am up to a point especially in principle. Reality however involves factors like the cost of batteries whether it is a motorcycle or an electric automobile. Four strokes brought much higher costs while failing to deliver on the "oh they are so clean burning they'll be EPA approved" yeah right. If you think a used four stroke can be a tough sell picture the owner of the electric motorcycle with a spent motorcycle that needs a replacement battery.

I don't have hard figures (and please correct me if I'm off based) but from what I remember we're talking about multiple thousands of dollars which will make a grand rebuild on a four stroke look cheap.

Have you heard some of the new dual sport four strokes? Man those things are quiet! Until battery prices drop I'll go with a diesel automobile over a hybrid or electric and prefer quiet two stroke and four strokes over electric bikes. KTM is delaying their bike for the very same reason.....battery costs.

For me a big part of the future of our sport is getting people off the couch and riding again. Be source of new business is from existing customers and anyone that still has a bike and riding gear gathering dust is a potential rider/racing. I think TT and scrambles could make a comeback promoting dual sport, old dirt bikes and a run what ya brung mentality. There's a lot of people that like to compete but not if it involves big air either because they're beginners or have reached a point in their life they no longer feel comfortable airing it out.

Okay that;s my rant and I'm sticking to it.

When comparing diesels and hybrids, consumers should just be aware that “performance” in the categories of air pollution, global warming pollution and oil dependence are not merely a function of the vehicle’s fuel economy, but rather also a function of its emissions control system and even of the fuel’s chemical makeup.
Barrett57
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Barrett57 10/17/2013 2:09pm
10/17/2013 2:09pm
DrSweden wrote:
To bad you see it that way, I'm open to new inventions, and felt the importance to discuss the future of bikes, dunno what's more important...
To bad you see it that way, I'm open to new inventions, and felt the importance to discuss the future of bikes, dunno what's more important to discuss on a dumb fuck forum for those interested in motorcycles that run in circles over fabricated obstacles by people in clown suits? J-Law coming back? Dungey having a bad day? There's always some amount of reason and sense in everything, and maybe this thread is another retard expose, but to sit on high horses and claim to be the sane one kind of went away the moment you signed up...

Not saying you are wrong though...
a dumb fuck forum for those interested in motorcycles that run in circles over fabricated obstacles by people in clown suits

Just Awesome Grinning Grinning
bullpen658
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bullpen658 10/17/2013 9:03pm
10/17/2013 9:03pm
Two strokes are CLEARLY better, which is why practically nobody rides them anymore.

Post a reply to: Rethink the four stroke, the future?