Air SHOCKED!

Top End
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2/3/2013 8:10am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2013 8:20am
bvm111 wrote:
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on...
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on a supercross bike... its just retarded! they are harsh, "spring rate" constantly changes... they suck!
I just rode a new Santa Cruz LTC 29er and liked the new Fox air shocks over the old coil springs. The new tubeless tires now those are retarded when you drop anything over 6"
dirthead1
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2/3/2013 9:15am
Gabriel J wrote:
Without knowing how the KTM air shock works, i'm really just reaching. But if the design is anything like the air sprung shocks from mountain bikes...
Without knowing how the KTM air shock works, i'm really just reaching. But if the design is anything like the air sprung shocks from mountain bikes, it looked like Dungey's shock could have leaked out air OR the air traveled from the positive to negative air chamber resulting in a stuck down position..Fox shocks had it happen frequently for a few years



That shock should have another 1.5" or so of shock shaft exposed, but when the air went to the negative chamber it basically creates a vacuum pulling the shaft inward, rather than pushing it out. Fortunately on a MTB, the fix is pretty simple and involves less than $20 in parts.
I was at A3 last night and knew when I saw his bike, that a "stuck down" had happened. I had to walk my mtn bike back for miles one day after it did and said never again to a rear air shock. Went with a Fox RC4 and Ti spring and never looked back. The only true advantage air sprung suspension has to coil spring is less weight. Airsprung systems still do not feel as good as coil sprung.
zookie
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2/3/2013 9:33am
I can't say that I am not surprised they have had issues, but I have to give KTM HUGE HUGE HUGE credit for going outside the box to try new things. Kudos to KTM for having a large set of cajones to run a part like that in a sport that is so dominated by everyone trying to do the same thing all the time. If I was not so heavily invested in Suzuki (4 bikes, lots of spare parts, lots of knowledge, friends with lots of knowledge, etc), KTM would be the bike that I own.
Hut
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2/3/2013 9:40am
No one got thrown under the bus. He just said Dungey likes the feel of the air shock and they wanted to run it.
I bet Dungey likes the feel of coil springs a little better now though. Cool

The Shop

Gabriel J
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2/3/2013 10:09am
bvm111 wrote:
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on...
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on a supercross bike... its just retarded! they are harsh, "spring rate" constantly changes... they suck!
Each time I read replies like this I think to myself: "Wow, these guys are fucking retarded geniuses. They don't know shit, but they sure believe they do".

I've put thousands of miles on MTB's with air shocks, and haven't run into any issues. To each his own.

Come to think of it, coil shocks ARE superior to air shocks on mountain bikes. I am throwing away my Santa Cruz Tallboy carbon and it's fucking useless Fox air shock and hitting up Wal-Mart for something more dependable and trail worthy

Xsenter
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2/3/2013 10:59am
Mr KTM .... please let the Japanese do the development and you copy it later... like it used to be !!!
Kartwheel84c
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2/3/2013 11:12am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2013 11:23am
I put a Manitou bumper fork on a bike in '92, and I have a Manitou air fork on a hardtail cross country bike now. That air fork is probably 6-7 years old (I forget exactly when I got it) and it has never failed. Maybe its from starting out in off road instead of MX I want a coil spring just because of the fail-safe aspect, I'm sure for someone at RD5s level the air forks/shocks can work better.
jeffro503
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2/3/2013 11:18am
KTM is taking a lot of chance with using that air shock at the races. I don't get why they don't stick with the conventional rear shock (oil and spring ).....and leave the air shock at home until it has more testing.

BTW......RD's bike looked a lot better once they went back to the older shock. Just leave it alone until the air shock gets the kinks worked out of i!
Parris
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2/3/2013 12:01pm
Back in 1980, a Lockheed employee developed an air shock for MX based on the aircraft strut. The shock was race tested in the Atlanta area by different riders on different bikes which included Team Green Kaw kx 250 Uni Trak raced by Billy Liles. The Lockheed employee was offered $60,000 plus $6.00 per shock installed for the use of the patent. The deal was he would have to leave his job at Lockheed in order to file for the full patent rights. He said it was not worth it to leave Lockheed. What if Kaw. only used the shock for one or two years before something better came along.
jeffro503
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2/3/2013 12:21pm
Just to be clear......what I'm saying is ....R&D on a bike should be done more in the off season......then trying to risk it during a championship chase.

Just so you guys know......the air shock is NOT the only thing on RD's bike that they have had issues with. The forks , the motors ( he's tried like 3 -4 ) , the geometry of the frame and other things.

The conventional rear shock was proven to work really well.......which is why I said I think they should test the air shock some where else....besides the actual race. Shit like what we saw in his heat race when it completely failed.....could be not only a way to ruin a championship run.......But put RD in the friggin' HOSPITAL if it fails during a race!

See what I'm saying?
grimey
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2/3/2013 1:36pm
This has to be a collective decision, I just can't believe otherwise. Rodger's comments about the shock have to be taken with a grain of salt. The embarrassement alone would be tough to handle which is why I believe his comments came off (insert opinion here). Ryan obviously handled it well and lets not pretend that anyone else knows more about about it then both of them.
grimey
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2/3/2013 1:40pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Just to be clear......what I'm saying is ....R&D on a bike should be done more in the off season......then trying to risk it during a championship...
Just to be clear......what I'm saying is ....R&D on a bike should be done more in the off season......then trying to risk it during a championship chase.

Just so you guys know......the air shock is NOT the only thing on RD's bike that they have had issues with. The forks , the motors ( he's tried like 3 -4 ) , the geometry of the frame and other things.

The conventional rear shock was proven to work really well.......which is why I said I think they should test the air shock some where else....besides the actual race. Shit like what we saw in his heat race when it completely failed.....could be not only a way to ruin a championship run.......But put RD in the friggin' HOSPITAL if it fails during a race!

See what I'm saying?
Absolutely, and that reality showed its ugly self last night. Before he even left the gate all I thought was thank sweet jebus that it happened then!
gjbruny
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2/3/2013 2:45pm
how easy everyone forgets (including Fro and RC) that all the factory guys on hondas and kawi are on air shocks....... just on the front of their bikes.

what happened to RD5 can happen to any of them....... and don't kid yourselves, all of them are smack ass in the middle of R&D on the pneumatic forks...... none of them are as dialed as their forks were on last year's bikes..... none and their current points standings and their lack of consistency reflect it. the guy that currently has the pneumatic suspension on the back of the bike is ahead of ALL of the guys with the pnuematic suspension on the fronts of their bikes.

on top of that, KTM gives their factory teams the options to run what THEY WANT....... not what the FACTORY wants. RV and CR have been bitching the entire season about the forks..... but their teams FORCE them to continue R&D during the season. look at Yamaha....... one of the biggest overhyped failures in SX and their backward thinking is forcing teams to still run that backward engine....... the air shock failed for KTM, and the old shock is back on the bike in minutes. i really wonder how honda will respond if one of their forks dumps air..... you think they will allow the team go back to the conventional forks f/or the rest of the race night?...... if so, i have some swampland for sale.


while i wouldn't trust ANY of the pneumatic suspension just yet, KTM seems to be the one advancing their machines by far and away the most from year to year..... just look at how far they have come in the last decade, last 5 years, last 2 years ect. the US is the only place they don't dominate..... yet......... but anyone that thinks they wont here in the future........ well.......... look what the future in the US was on last night. this pic is a sad statement for the jap companies .

VoR
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2/3/2013 3:15pm
What I really don't get is RC & Emig acting like they really aren't sure wth he is running. "Hmm I think he might have an air shock?"
2/3/2013 3:27pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Just to be clear......what I'm saying is ....R&D on a bike should be done more in the off season......then trying to risk it during a championship...
Just to be clear......what I'm saying is ....R&D on a bike should be done more in the off season......then trying to risk it during a championship chase.

Just so you guys know......the air shock is NOT the only thing on RD's bike that they have had issues with. The forks , the motors ( he's tried like 3 -4 ) , the geometry of the frame and other things.

The conventional rear shock was proven to work really well.......which is why I said I think they should test the air shock some where else....besides the actual race. Shit like what we saw in his heat race when it completely failed.....could be not only a way to ruin a championship run.......But put RD in the friggin' HOSPITAL if it fails during a race!

See what I'm saying?
grimey wrote:
Absolutely, and that reality showed its ugly self last night. Before he even left the gate all I thought was thank sweet jebus that it happened...
Absolutely, and that reality showed its ugly self last night. Before he even left the gate all I thought was thank sweet jebus that it happened then!
This thread sucks but you are railing the fuck out of that three wheeler.

Win some, lose some.
bvm111
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2/3/2013 3:36pm Edited Date/Time 2/3/2013 3:37pm
bvm111 wrote:
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on...
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on a supercross bike... its just retarded! they are harsh, "spring rate" constantly changes... they suck!
Gabriel J wrote:
Each time I read replies like this I think to myself: "Wow, these guys are fucking retarded geniuses. They don't know shit, but they sure believe...
Each time I read replies like this I think to myself: "Wow, these guys are fucking retarded geniuses. They don't know shit, but they sure believe they do".

I've put thousands of miles on MTB's with air shocks, and haven't run into any issues. To each his own.

Come to think of it, coil shocks ARE superior to air shocks on mountain bikes. I am throwing away my Santa Cruz Tallboy carbon and it's fucking useless Fox air shock and hitting up Wal-Mart for something more dependable and trail worthy

Yeah thats funny... I know I am retarded but comparing a lame XC bike to a WC Downhill bike is pretty retarded as well dont you think?

Look at any serious DH guy.... what is he running? Air or Coil?

I say again....they are harsh, "spring rate" constantly changes... they suck!
Frank
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2/3/2013 4:02pm
We could all go back to land line phones for our sole source of communication. Shit worked fine for decades. Just saying.
WFO!
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2/3/2013 5:58pm
bvm111 wrote:
Yeah thats funny... I know I am retarded but comparing a lame XC bike to a WC Downhill bike is pretty retarded as well dont you...
Yeah thats funny... I know I am retarded but comparing a lame XC bike to a WC Downhill bike is pretty retarded as well dont you think?

Look at any serious DH guy.... what is he running? Air or Coil?

I say again....they are harsh, "spring rate" constantly changes... they suck!
Don't want to piss anybody off, but bvm111 is 100% correct.

A cross country bike is about as far away from a motocross bike as one could get.

Meanwhile a true DH (downhill) rig is about as close to a motocross bike as you could get. (chassis wise)

Air shocks are for "gram weenies" and are notoriously "untunable" in anything beyond a casual cross country roll.
If they fail on a flatland cross country bike? Whoopie. The rear end will drop a whole 2-3". No danger there.

If you want to compare then post pics of bikes that make sense to compare.

Like this Tomac rig...yep, same Tomac family.



Or this DH rig.....Titanium coil sprung. No 'air shocks'.



Yep, this is a BICYCLE making that drop.....you can keep your air shock thank you.

Flatliner
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2/3/2013 6:01pm
Jawdrop. Remember bender going for that years back.
jeffro503
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2/3/2013 9:50pm
That has to be the most badass bike I think I have ever seen! I don't know much about DH or mtn bikes in general.....but the fit and finish and just the way that bike is put together.....holy crap that thing is beautiful!
jeffro503
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2/3/2013 9:50pm
Damn it....forgot the pic!

Crush
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2/3/2013 9:54pm
bvm111 wrote:
Yeah thats funny... I know I am retarded but comparing a lame XC bike to a WC Downhill bike is pretty retarded as well dont you...
Yeah thats funny... I know I am retarded but comparing a lame XC bike to a WC Downhill bike is pretty retarded as well dont you think?

Look at any serious DH guy.... what is he running? Air or Coil?

I say again....they are harsh, "spring rate" constantly changes... they suck!
WFO! wrote:
Don't want to piss anybody off, but bvm111 is 100% correct. A cross country bike is about as far away from a motocross bike as one...
Don't want to piss anybody off, but bvm111 is 100% correct.

A cross country bike is about as far away from a motocross bike as one could get.

Meanwhile a true DH (downhill) rig is about as close to a motocross bike as you could get. (chassis wise)

Air shocks are for "gram weenies" and are notoriously "untunable" in anything beyond a casual cross country roll.
If they fail on a flatland cross country bike? Whoopie. The rear end will drop a whole 2-3". No danger there.

If you want to compare then post pics of bikes that make sense to compare.

Like this Tomac rig...yep, same Tomac family.



Or this DH rig.....Titanium coil sprung. No 'air shocks'.



Yep, this is a BICYCLE making that drop.....you can keep your air shock thank you.

Is that Bender?!

Did he ever land it?
bvm111
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2/3/2013 10:01pm Edited Date/Time 2/3/2013 10:08pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Damn it....forgot the pic! [img]http://www.nsmb.com/assets/images/Interbike%202008/fergs/day3/_I4I3175_1.jpg[/img]
Damn it....forgot the pic!

jeffro if you like that tomac... google Turner DHR or Intense M9.... i just caught the DH bug this past season it is a blast and a true crossover to riding MX!

sorry im just too retarded to figure out how to post a pic yet!
bvm111
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2/3/2013 10:18pm Edited Date/Time 2/3/2013 10:19pm



oh shit after 50 tries it worked!
seth505
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2/3/2013 10:31pm
bvm111 wrote:
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on...
you have never ridden with an air shock have you... you couldnt pay me enough money to run one on my MTB or better yet on a supercross bike... its just retarded! they are harsh, "spring rate" constantly changes... they suck!
Top End wrote:
I just rode a new Santa Cruz LTC 29er and liked the new Fox air shocks over the old coil springs. The new tubeless tires now...
I just rode a new Santa Cruz LTC 29er and liked the new Fox air shocks over the old coil springs. The new tubeless tires now those are retarded when you drop anything over 6"
whaaaat? I ran tubeless for DH and they were/are fine for big drops. Since you are in NY, do you ever hit Plattekill? I used to race there a ton.
Big E
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2/3/2013 10:50pm
Dungey just won with a spring shock. You wont see the air shock for the rest of SX.
Choppy
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2/3/2013 11:01pm
Big E wrote:
Dungey just won with a spring shock. You wont see the air shock for the rest of SX.
Thankfully some people understand there is more than one way to skin a cat other then it's asshole. Everything will be looked at and considered.
HenryA
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2/3/2013 11:59pm
Kinda surprised over the comments here about the interview with Roger. For once it felt like we heard the true story, he could have just say something completly else. JS is good at that, remember a few weeks back when everyone was asking him about the knee? That's how you avoid answering a question like a champ.
GuyB
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2/4/2013 12:13am
JW381 wrote:
Not to mention, no matter how long Roger has been stateside, if he's not routinely practicing and learning English, he probably won't get far beyond where...
Not to mention, no matter how long Roger has been stateside, if he's not routinely practicing and learning English, he probably won't get far beyond where he was when he first came here. That being said, stuff can still get lost in translation, I'm sure that happens quite often for him.
Have you ever talked to him? Roger's English is fine.

There are a handful of guys in the pits who, if you ask the question, they'll generally give you a pretty straight answer. Roger's in that group.

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