Since it needs no further introduction, I give you the MPS masterpiece:

AlisoBob
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AlisoBob 1/3/2013 7:00pm
1/3/2013 7:00pm
This is how Service Honda used to do it, on a $ 10,000 bike.



Just keep feeding wire into a big puddle of shit, and let it all just pool together..... and some people call this "Craftsmanship" or "Artwork".



How Paulie does it...

AlisoBob
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AlisoBob 1/3/2013 7:03pm
1/3/2013 7:03pm
TerryK wrote:
Right, BUT, if he would have gotten the the two bolts directly in line with the engine's theoretical pivot trajectory, it would be a rigid structure...
Right, BUT, if he would have gotten the the two bolts directly in line with the engine's theoretical pivot trajectory, it would be a rigid structure. Triangulating eliminates the need to do this but both techniques will work.
Hut wrote:
That sounds reasonable but I imagine there is a reason the factory designs it the way they do. I assume it is to keep everything tied...
That sounds reasonable but I imagine there is a reason the factory designs it the way they do. I assume it is to keep everything tied together like a truss.
EXACTLY Hut. There is only one way to do the headstay correctly, the OEM way.
newmann
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newmann 1/3/2013 7:03pm
1/3/2013 7:03pm
Bob,beautiful work, but...Laughing





CR500Rider
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CR500Rider 1/3/2013 7:11pm
1/3/2013 7:11pm
newmann wrote:
Bob,beautiful work, but...:laugh: [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/JimmasAF023.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.willybanjo.com/shop/smoking_supplies/bongs/glass_bongs/regular_glass_bongs/images/main_coloured_glass_bong_GRS132.jpg[/img]
Bob,beautiful work, but...Laughing





You can't take a Hoon anywhere.

The Shop

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BAMX
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BAMX 1/3/2013 7:16pm
1/3/2013 7:16pm
TerryK wrote:
Wrong: [img]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q156/holtre1/2011KX500Build038.jpg[/img]
Wrong:

CamP wrote:
The main problem with that mount is not using the second bolt hole in the frame to create a fully rigid, 3-bolt head stay. That 2-bolt...
The main problem with that mount is not using the second bolt hole in the frame to create a fully rigid, 3-bolt head stay. That 2-bolt head stay is just a big rocker arm.
TerryK wrote:
Right, BUT, if he would have gotten the the two bolts directly in line with the engine's theoretical pivot trajectory, it would be a rigid structure...
Right, BUT, if he would have gotten the the two bolts directly in line with the engine's theoretical pivot trajectory, it would be a rigid structure. Triangulating eliminates the need to do this but both techniques will work.
I guess a lot of this has to do with what you are trying to accomplish and how strong you want to make it. That mount does a lot of things like keep the cylinder from vibrating and cracking. Plus it stiffens the whole frame and transfers the forces where they need to go. You could model it in Solidworks and run FEA to see what the stock motor did if you had the model or a few hunded hours to model it all up. My guess would be to go as close to stock as possible since a lot of guys who are all smarter than everyone here spent a lot of time designing that bike. Along these lines, I have always wondered why Service Honda uses billet Al instead of tubing on the frame rails, like the factory.
AlisoBob
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AlisoBob 1/3/2013 7:16pm
1/3/2013 7:16pm
Its a imported vase......honest!
Hut
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Hut 1/3/2013 7:22pm
1/3/2013 7:22pm
Hey whatever it takes to keep that golden arm laying a smooth bead in there. Cool
BAMX
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BAMX 1/3/2013 7:23pm
1/3/2013 7:23pm
AlisoBob wrote:
Its a imported vase......honest!
You must have left the flowers in too long the water looks dirty. Smile
AlisoBob
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AlisoBob 1/3/2013 7:29pm
1/3/2013 7:29pm
125 wrote:
I wish someone would post a complete photo of a Paul stoffer framed bike. Even if it is a hill climber. I just want to see...
I wish someone would post a complete photo of a Paul stoffer framed bike. Even if it is a hill climber. I just want to see a 5-hundo wedged in there without a cobbled-together cradle.
AlisoBob wrote:
Stoffers does everything.... From WILD [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/JimmasAF025.jpg[/img] [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/JimmasAF023.jpg[/img] To MILD [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/NewFolder159.jpg[/img] [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/NewFolder150.jpg[/img] A Service Honda looks like dog shit compared to Paulies bikes... In form, fit, and...
Stoffers does everything.... From WILD





To MILD





A Service Honda looks like dog shit compared to Paulies bikes... In form, fit, and function. If your impressed by a S/H, all I can say is that you must impress easily. Their cobbled together, and thats a fact. Do they work? Yea. And thats all they do. EVERY magazine photo is taken from 20' away. Every wonder why? They look like shit. Paul takes in down to here.... before starting his conversion.



No one else does. S/H SCABS onto 2" long stubbs they left sticking out of the foot peg pockets. Why? Because they can because most people who buy S/H bikes dont know any better and will buy anything. A S/H is made as cheaply as possible. Paulies bike are made as well as possible. Theirs a HUGE difference......
Evil
jtomasik
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jtomasik 1/3/2013 7:30pm
1/3/2013 7:30pm
125 wrote:
I wish someone would post a complete photo of a Paul stoffer framed bike. Even if it is a hill climber. I just want to see...
I wish someone would post a complete photo of a Paul stoffer framed bike. Even if it is a hill climber. I just want to see a 5-hundo wedged in there without a cobbled-together cradle.
AlisoBob wrote:
Stoffers does everything.... From WILD [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/JimmasAF025.jpg[/img] [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/JimmasAF023.jpg[/img] To MILD [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/NewFolder159.jpg[/img] [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/NewFolder150.jpg[/img] A Service Honda looks like dog shit compared to Paulies bikes... In form, fit, and...
Stoffers does everything.... From WILD





To MILD





A Service Honda looks like dog shit compared to Paulies bikes... In form, fit, and function. If your impressed by a S/H, all I can say is that you must impress easily. Their cobbled together, and thats a fact. Do they work? Yea. And thats all they do. EVERY magazine photo is taken from 20' away. Every wonder why? They look like shit. Paul takes in down to here.... before starting his conversion.



No one else does. S/H SCABS onto 2" long stubbs they left sticking out of the foot peg pockets. Why? Because they can because most people who buy S/H bikes dont know any better and will buy anything. A S/H is made as cheaply as possible. Paulies bike are made as well as possible. Theirs a HUGE difference......
Nice work. No doubt. But, in the manufacturing world, there's 'good enough'. You start finding recent Service Honda's that have had structural/operational issues, then we'll talk.
TerryK
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TerryK 1/3/2013 7:35pm
1/3/2013 7:35pm
BAMX wrote:
I guess a lot of this has to do with what you are trying to accomplish and how strong you want to make it. That mount...
I guess a lot of this has to do with what you are trying to accomplish and how strong you want to make it. That mount does a lot of things like keep the cylinder from vibrating and cracking. Plus it stiffens the whole frame and transfers the forces where they need to go. You could model it in Solidworks and run FEA to see what the stock motor did if you had the model or a few hunded hours to model it all up. My guess would be to go as close to stock as possible since a lot of guys who are all smarter than everyone here spent a lot of time designing that bike. Along these lines, I have always wondered why Service Honda uses billet Al instead of tubing on the frame rails, like the factory.
I dont understand where you are going with this statement. Are you saying that the mount in that picture is ok?? No one said they know more than the designers of said mounts, but in the case of that picture, a monkey could see whats wrong with that set up.

If you look at OEM design for this mount (with a 250 engine) you'll see that they did it right, but once you put a taller engine in, the mount dosen't work.
TerryK
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TerryK 1/3/2013 7:36pm
1/3/2013 7:36pm
PS: why are we bashing Service Honda? I haven't seen any complainants here.
AlisoBob
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AlisoBob 1/3/2013 8:05pm
1/3/2013 8:05pm
TerryK wrote:
PS: why are we bashing Service Honda? I haven't seen any complainants here.
This isnt bashing, these are facts. MPS and S/H build a inferior product.
AlisoBob
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AlisoBob 1/3/2013 8:12pm
1/3/2013 8:12pm
This is a proper Gen 4 / Gen 5 headstay conversion

CamP
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CamP 1/3/2013 8:16pm
1/3/2013 8:16pm
The '04 Service Honda I looked at a couple of days ago had primo welds. Now, they did forget to put second gear in it when they built the engine, but the original owner was a rich non-rider, so he never knew the difference. Just upshift through two neutrals and leave it in 3rd.
scooter5002
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scooter5002 1/3/2013 8:20pm
1/3/2013 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2013 8:21pm
CamP wrote:
The '04 Service Honda I looked at a couple of days ago had primo welds. Now, they did forget to put second gear in it when...
The '04 Service Honda I looked at a couple of days ago had primo welds. Now, they did forget to put second gear in it when they built the engine, but the original owner was a rich non-rider, so he never knew the difference. Just upshift through two neutrals and leave it in 3rd.
WHAT?! Lol. What the FUCK?! How does that get past QUALITY CONTROL?! They just assembled it and shipped it off. Unbelievable. That's the kind of shit that's just unacceptable. The motor guy should have had the complete piece count in front of him before assembly even started, and had parts left over when he screwed up. You can't make this shit up.
Hut
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Hut 1/3/2013 8:25pm
1/3/2013 8:25pm
CamP wrote:
The '04 Service Honda I looked at a couple of days ago had primo welds. Now, they did forget to put second gear in it when...
The '04 Service Honda I looked at a couple of days ago had primo welds. Now, they did forget to put second gear in it when they built the engine, but the original owner was a rich non-rider, so he never knew the difference. Just upshift through two neutrals and leave it in 3rd.
That's all kinds of funny. Better off starting in 3rd and leavin 'er there! Woohoo
CamP
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CamP 1/3/2013 8:29pm
1/3/2013 8:29pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2013 8:33pm
CamP wrote:
The '04 Service Honda I looked at a couple of days ago had primo welds. Now, they did forget to put second gear in it when...
The '04 Service Honda I looked at a couple of days ago had primo welds. Now, they did forget to put second gear in it when they built the engine, but the original owner was a rich non-rider, so he never knew the difference. Just upshift through two neutrals and leave it in 3rd.
scooter5002 wrote:
WHAT?! Lol. What the FUCK?! How does that get past QUALITY CONTROL?! They just assembled it and shipped it off. Unbelievable. That's the kind of shit...
WHAT?! Lol. What the FUCK?! How does that get past QUALITY CONTROL?! They just assembled it and shipped it off. Unbelievable. That's the kind of shit that's just unacceptable. The motor guy should have had the complete piece count in front of him before assembly even started, and had parts left over when he screwed up. You can't make this shit up.
Shit happens, I guess. Must have been a Friday afternoon engine. The current owner bought it knowing there was a tranny issue. Figured it had a bent shift fork or bad gear dogears. Sean Hackley's dad pulled it apart and it was missing 2nd. Popped a new one in and it works like a champ.

The frame welds, on the other hand, where very nice.

Pit Row

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scooter5002
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scooter5002 1/3/2013 8:32pm
1/3/2013 8:32pm
I guess it would with every fuckin' GEAR on the shafts! Lol. Wow.
Hut
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Hut 1/3/2013 8:40pm
1/3/2013 8:40pm
This one ain't going anywhere.
bigborefan
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bigborefan 1/3/2013 8:40pm
1/3/2013 8:40pm
3rd is all you need on 500 2T anyway. I used to ride the entire Mosier Valley night track on my KX-500 in 3rd gear.

Personally, I prefer the KX 500 motor over the Honda 500, but an AF 500 Honda sure is sexy to look at.
BAMX
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BAMX 1/3/2013 8:40pm
1/3/2013 8:40pm
BAMX wrote:
I guess a lot of this has to do with what you are trying to accomplish and how strong you want to make it. That mount...
I guess a lot of this has to do with what you are trying to accomplish and how strong you want to make it. That mount does a lot of things like keep the cylinder from vibrating and cracking. Plus it stiffens the whole frame and transfers the forces where they need to go. You could model it in Solidworks and run FEA to see what the stock motor did if you had the model or a few hunded hours to model it all up. My guess would be to go as close to stock as possible since a lot of guys who are all smarter than everyone here spent a lot of time designing that bike. Along these lines, I have always wondered why Service Honda uses billet Al instead of tubing on the frame rails, like the factory.
TerryK wrote:
I dont understand where you are going with this statement. Are you saying that the mount in that picture is ok?? No one said they know...
I dont understand where you are going with this statement. Are you saying that the mount in that picture is ok?? No one said they know more than the designers of said mounts, but in the case of that picture, a monkey could see whats wrong with that set up.

If you look at OEM design for this mount (with a 250 engine) you'll see that they did it right, but once you put a taller engine in, the mount dosen't work.
My point was that none of us know for certain if this mount is good other than educated guesses. In fact my guess is that none of these builders modeled this in a computer like even the smallest bike company would. therefore, unless they did a ton of testing, they are all just guessing. Since Honda spent millions developing this bike, he who is closest to stock is probably correct.
If you held my feet to the fire, my guess is that this mount is way wrong. In fact it looks like epic fail on everything from design to fabrication. I find it hard to believe that the two frame mounts don't loosen up constantly since as was pointed out , it looks like a rocker. My feeling is that if you look at this vs the stock mount you will notice that the stock mount would cause the whole center of the frame to be triangulated and very stiff. My 450 CRF has large stiff mounts to tie the head into the frame. This mount doesnt look like it does shit and don't even get me started on those welds or that scrap of Al bar that he used.
My real question is how do the Service Honda's handle compared to the Stoffer bikes. We can leave that junk pile out of the equation since I wouldn't ride it accross a parking lot on a bet. I ask because the Service has most of the bottom half built out of pieces of solid billet where as the Stoffer bike looks to be built like the stock bike. Does anyone know? Has anyone ridden both? Bob?
scooter5002
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scooter5002 1/3/2013 8:45pm
1/3/2013 8:45pm
bigborefan wrote:
3rd is all you need on 500 2T anyway. I used to ride the entire Mosier Valley night track on my KX-500 in 3rd gear. Personally...
3rd is all you need on 500 2T anyway. I used to ride the entire Mosier Valley night track on my KX-500 in 3rd gear.

Personally, I prefer the KX 500 motor over the Honda 500, but an AF 500 Honda sure is sexy to look at.
i won't argue the point about not NEEDING lower than third, but how bout if you have an oopsy and hit a neutral on a downshift that shouldn't be there? Ouch.
Hut
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Hut 1/3/2013 8:48pm
1/3/2013 8:48pm
Looking on the bright side you know that rocker arm version must have a way less rigid feel and greatly reduced vibration.Blink
BAMX
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BAMX 1/3/2013 8:55pm
1/3/2013 8:55pm
AlisoBob wrote:
This is a proper Gen 4 / Gen 5 headstay conversion [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/britincali/IMG00230-20110124-1613.jpg[/img]
This is a proper Gen 4 / Gen 5 headstay conversion

This is about 1000X better than that Aluminum rod on the other bike. Since he was making billet parts, why didnt he make some threaded bungs and tie it into the outer frame like the stock bike?
scooter5002
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scooter5002 1/3/2013 9:00pm
1/3/2013 9:00pm
Hut wrote:
Looking on the bright side you know that rocker arm version must have a way less rigid feel and greatly reduced vibration.Blink
Until...................
scooter5002
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scooter5002 1/3/2013 9:03pm
1/3/2013 9:03pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2013 9:06pm
BAMX wrote:
This is about 1000X better than that Aluminum rod on the other bike. Since he was making billet parts, why didnt he make some threaded bungs...
This is about 1000X better than that Aluminum rod on the other bike. Since he was making billet parts, why didnt he make some threaded bungs and tie it into the outer frame like the stock bike?
Won't work. Thought about that for my bike but the cylinder profile is totally different on the 500 cylinder vs the 450. Just not an option. The same setup on the 450 would go right through the intake area on the 500. If you're referring to the 450 style. He DOES however have some billet pcs that run strait across to the OEM frame mounts though. A 2 pc deal, bolts to the frame spars.
AlisoBob
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AlisoBob 1/3/2013 9:19pm
1/3/2013 9:19pm
BAMX wrote:
My point was that none of us know for certain if this mount is good other than educated guesses. In fact my guess is that none...
My point was that none of us know for certain if this mount is good other than educated guesses. In fact my guess is that none of these builders modeled this in a computer like even the smallest bike company would. therefore, unless they did a ton of testing, they are all just guessing. Since Honda spent millions developing this bike, he who is closest to stock is probably correct.
If you held my feet to the fire, my guess is that this mount is way wrong. In fact it looks like epic fail on everything from design to fabrication. I find it hard to believe that the two frame mounts don't loosen up constantly since as was pointed out , it looks like a rocker. My feeling is that if you look at this vs the stock mount you will notice that the stock mount would cause the whole center of the frame to be triangulated and very stiff. My 450 CRF has large stiff mounts to tie the head into the frame. This mount doesnt look like it does shit and don't even get me started on those welds or that scrap of Al bar that he used.
My real question is how do the Service Honda's handle compared to the Stoffer bikes. We can leave that junk pile out of the equation since I wouldn't ride it accross a parking lot on a bet. I ask because the Service has most of the bottom half built out of pieces of solid billet where as the Stoffer bike looks to be built like the stock bike. Does anyone know? Has anyone ridden both? Bob?
I have had the opportunity to ride many, many homemade A/F's, S/H, Teem Trubble. Halo, Stoffers Racing, GTS. Sargent Fab Works, and prolly' others I cant remember. Without question... the ones built closer to stock OEM Honda methods vibed less, the funky ones vibe more. S/H uses a one sided billet headstay that looks trick, but works like crud.



this is my OEM style two-sided headstay


The best handling ones seem to be the Gen 3 CR250r based bikes. They are stable, but turn on a dime. The Gen 3 CR125r based bikes are a bit twitchy at speed. I ride a home made Gen 4 CRF250x based bike. Its comfortable and does most things very well.


Cut



Mount


Ride

These bikes are very simple to build........

http://www.bannedcr500riders.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=894&postdays=0&p…
slipdog
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slipdog 1/3/2013 9:19pm
1/3/2013 9:19pm
Mother F'in Hall of Fame!
nadeauracing229
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nadeauracing229 1/3/2013 9:23pm
1/3/2013 9:23pm
Who built the bike Robbie Maddison or whoever that was that jumped that record jump a few years ago? I'd trust that company.

Post a reply to: Since it needs no further introduction, I give you the MPS masterpiece: