Since it needs no further introduction, I give you the MPS masterpiece:

scooter5002
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1/4/2013 7:53am
ehr, you have any photos of that MPS frame failure at Vet Fest, or where we could find them? Be nice to get them up here.
jtomasik
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1/4/2013 7:53am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2013 7:57am
jtom, the SHIT I had to listen from George about AJ was sickening. I've left that out until now, because it didn't matter. Just more little...
jtom, the SHIT I had to listen from George about AJ was sickening. I've left that out until now, because it didn't matter. Just more little details though. I wonder how much time AJ spends bashing MPS to HIS prospective customers. I'm guessing probably less. A LOT less. You sell your product based on it's own merits, not by trashing others personally. Keeping it professional, as it were. It's fine to point out your product STRENGTHS verses others, but again, professionally so.
I haven't followed all of the 500 conversion threads closely enough to have seen the SH bashing until this thread. I'm not saying it's the only one, or that AlisoBob is wrong. I'm just asking for quantification and clarification on his distaste of Service Honda product. I emailed AJ and told him about this thread. Maybe he'll show with some actual product data. Maybe he won't.

Yeah, AlisoBob's buddy who builds that frame does nice work (at least aesthetically so). Structurally, I honestly don't know whether it's necessary. So, I offer the sincere question. And, I ask it because of the times I've run across individuals who do too much and burn time and money.

For example, in the first company I worked for as an engineer, we had a machinist from Switzerland who fancied himself similar to a watch maker. I'd ask him to fab up a couple prototype parts for me. Now, the manufactured version would be subject to typical injection molding tolerances. So, if it was something like an anisotropic glass loaded semi-crystalline material, then those tolerances could be relatively big (in an injection molded part). But, he'd burn 2 days trying to stay within 0.0005" (yes, that's 5 ten thousands of an inch) of nominal. An approach like that can not only burn time and money, but if you make several of them the same, you could throw the test results.

AJ is a great businessman. I bought a used SH 500 that gave SH itself zero profit. One bracket on the pipe was broken when I bought the bike from the kid who owned it. I talked to AJ about it, he explained to me it was a weak area of the Pro Circuit pipe, and I could get the FMF pipe instead, which should solve the problem. He then proceeded to send me several upgrades they did to the bike at no cost to me (not cheap stuff, either....one was a free airbox they started using that allowed air filter access from the side), in addition to some free bling for the bike (custom machined brake reservoir covers and a clutch cover). The guy's good people.
CamP
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1/4/2013 8:01am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2013 8:06am
jtomasik wrote:
You don't have to be a PE to be a good engineer. In fact, I know several guys who came from the blue-collar ranks, don't have...
You don't have to be a PE to be a good engineer. In fact, I know several guys who came from the blue-collar ranks, don't have their PE, and will run circles around a guy who learned everything through academics.

No, I don't have my PE. I am a degree'd engineer (masters in mechanical with a minor in electrical), but the lack of the PE hasn't prevented me from satisfying the needs of the development environment and business that I run.
I agree. When I was a PM at the largest A&E firm in Texas, I had a newly registered mechanical engineer tell me that the outside air temp didn't have any effect on the supply air temp of an air conditioning system. I was forced to provide MEP services early in my career, and it was mostly self taught, so I knew this kid didn't know shit from shineola.

BTW, if you have a BS degree in engineering, I don't mind you calling yourself an engineer. Whether or not you are good at it is a different story.

The Shop

reded
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KS US
1/4/2013 8:04am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2013 8:07am
For me it would come down to the price difference between this...


and this....


I honestly wouldn't spend $10k on the former. The question of whether or not it's structurally sound wouldn't even come into play if I saw that type of weld on a bike that I was considering for purchase. In my mind it doesn't look right and I would always have a mental hangup over it.

It seems like I've read a few threads that stated SH's quality has made some leaps in the last few years so it would be interesting to compare a frame of AJ's from 5 yrs ago to the way he builds them today.
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 8:06am
You make valid points, based on your knowledge of that side of the fence. I can't argue that you're wrong, because you have that knowledge. HOWEVER, I would say that, IMHO, SHs approach is, hmmm, different.
I thinks Pauls way is the best and timewise for the build, not any worse. I'd go his route because it looks OEM, and the most structurally sound. Proper material, formed correctly, not billet inserts with extra unnecessary welds. Nice mounts to weld on, just done with forethought and pride.
Personally, until SH changes their methods, I won't own one. Not because I don't like AJ or anything else. On a personal level, I've only read good things about AJ and his dealings with people. It's just SHs methods I have an issue with. This is NOT an anti SH thread, nor was it ever intended to be. Just here to expose MPS for they are. An unprofessional shop, with a clearly substandard product, to do business with.
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 8:08am
kongols wrote:
[img]https://apeshits.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tumblr_m0fitk7blz1rotwwto1_500.gif[/img]
You'd be the expert on that, wouldn't you klowngols?
jtomasik
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1/4/2013 8:13am
CamP wrote:
I agree. When I was a PM at the largest A&E firm in Texas, I had a newly registered mechanical engineer tell me that the outside...
I agree. When I was a PM at the largest A&E firm in Texas, I had a newly registered mechanical engineer tell me that the outside air temp didn't have any effect on the supply air temp of an air conditioning system. I was forced to provide MEP services early in my career, and it was mostly self taught, so I knew this kid didn't know shit from shineola.

BTW, if you have a BS degree in engineering, I don't mind you calling yourself an engineer. Whether or not you are good at it is a different story.
So, if BS makes you an engineer, then am I correct in assuming that our government is largely staffed with engineers? And I thought they were lawyers...

It blows me away how some engineers get so crossed up by the books. So many of these new guys spend their off-hours playing video games or as musicians...with no practical applications of the world they're getting into. When I hire, I look for guys who either have professional experience in a blue collar world (like mechanics, fabrication, or construction), or if they grew up working on their parents' farm. The farm boys can be extremely practical. There's one guy who wrote convergence algorithms that are used for analysis of aircraft tires during landing (that non-linear stuff is wild...have done a lot of it and it really works if you have the patience to set it up properly and use it practically). His name is Dr. Joe Padavan. The guy grew up on a farm, has one still, and teaches advanced FEA. I guess he's worked for NASA and Goodyear. One of the sharpest guys I've ever met.
CamP
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1/4/2013 8:15am
reded wrote:
For me it would come down to the price difference between this... [img]http://i41.tinypic.com/33oip8p.jpg[/img] and this.... [img]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/pstoffers/NewFolder128.jpg[/img] I honestly wouldn't spend $10k on the former. The question...
For me it would come down to the price difference between this...


and this....


I honestly wouldn't spend $10k on the former. The question of whether or not it's structurally sound wouldn't even come into play if I saw that type of weld on a bike that I was considering for purchase. In my mind it doesn't look right and I would always have a mental hangup over it.

It seems like I've read a few threads that stated SH's quality has made some leaps in the last few years so it would be interesting to compare a frame of AJ's from 5 yrs ago to the way he builds them today.
I've mentioned it 2 or 3 times in this thread already. I looked at a '04 SH 500AF 4 days ago, and all the welds looked excellent. Nothing like that pic at all.
CamP
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1/4/2013 8:25am
jtomasik wrote:
So, if BS makes you an engineer, then am I correct in assuming that our government is largely staffed with engineers? And I thought they were...
So, if BS makes you an engineer, then am I correct in assuming that our government is largely staffed with engineers? And I thought they were lawyers...

It blows me away how some engineers get so crossed up by the books. So many of these new guys spend their off-hours playing video games or as musicians...with no practical applications of the world they're getting into. When I hire, I look for guys who either have professional experience in a blue collar world (like mechanics, fabrication, or construction), or if they grew up working on their parents' farm. The farm boys can be extremely practical. There's one guy who wrote convergence algorithms that are used for analysis of aircraft tires during landing (that non-linear stuff is wild...have done a lot of it and it really works if you have the patience to set it up properly and use it practically). His name is Dr. Joe Padavan. The guy grew up on a farm, has one still, and teaches advanced FEA. I guess he's worked for NASA and Goodyear. One of the sharpest guys I've ever met.
If you have a minimum BS in "mechanical, structural, electrical Engineering", I don't have a problem with you calling yourself an engineer. I have a BS Architecture, but I would never call myself an engineer, even though I provided MEP engineering services for many years.

You right about the farm boys, or girls. My sister-in-law is a EE from Wyoming. She is a kick ass engineer, partly because she grew up on a remote farm. It helps that she has a photographic memory.
scooter5002
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Nanton Alberta CA
1/4/2013 8:26am
Welcome to the party klowngols. You're only a few days late. We're only 10 pages into this,and now you show up. With nothing to contribute.
Didn't think you ever left Non Moto. Shouldn't you be over there, up on your soapbox, spewing your intelectual and societal superiority and anti-American bullshit? Or are you just finally tired of masturbating in your mothers basement and thought you'd step out for a while?
ehr400
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Britton, MI US
1/4/2013 8:34am
ehr, you have any photos of that MPS frame failure at Vet Fest, or where we could find them? Be nice to get them up here.
Trying to find where I have them. Gotta see if my old lady has it on her camera.
jtomasik
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Golden, CO US
1/4/2013 8:37am
CamP wrote:
If you have a minimum BS in "mechanical, structural, electrical Engineering", I don't have a problem with you calling yourself an engineer. I have a BS...
If you have a minimum BS in "mechanical, structural, electrical Engineering", I don't have a problem with you calling yourself an engineer. I have a BS Architecture, but I would never call myself an engineer, even though I provided MEP engineering services for many years.

You right about the farm boys, or girls. My sister-in-law is a EE from Wyoming. She is a kick ass engineer, partly because she grew up on a remote farm. It helps that she has a photographic memory.
I'd throw in the industrial and manufacturing engineering degrees, too. They've been taught quantification of their environment, which falls in line with the other engineering disciplines. The Chem E's have me scratching my head. We'd get the flunkies from their program, and those guys would sleep through our courses and still ace them. Weird. Chem was hard, but it didn't seem that difficult. I wonder what their program is like.

Oops, back on subject....I'm thinking of taking some pics of my '05 SH frame. I wasn't thrilled with how they fitted the engine, but the bike works damn good (best all around machine I've ever ridden), and, like a sore dick, ya' can't beat it! Had the opportunity to take it to the Utah dez once, and holy shit that is THE bike to have in the sand!
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 8:51am
ehr, you have any photos of that MPS frame failure at Vet Fest, or where we could find them? Be nice to get them up here.
ehr400 wrote:
Trying to find where I have them. Gotta see if my old lady has it on her camera.
Awesome. Throw 'em up when you find them!
ehr400
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1/4/2013 8:52am
My buddy is coming down to ride from toledo and he may have them too. Lol I know someone from our group of 6 has some fucking pics of it.
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 8:53am
jtomasik wrote:
I'd throw in the industrial and manufacturing engineering degrees, too. They've been taught quantification of their environment, which falls in line with the other engineering disciplines...
I'd throw in the industrial and manufacturing engineering degrees, too. They've been taught quantification of their environment, which falls in line with the other engineering disciplines. The Chem E's have me scratching my head. We'd get the flunkies from their program, and those guys would sleep through our courses and still ace them. Weird. Chem was hard, but it didn't seem that difficult. I wonder what their program is like.

Oops, back on subject....I'm thinking of taking some pics of my '05 SH frame. I wasn't thrilled with how they fitted the engine, but the bike works damn good (best all around machine I've ever ridden), and, like a sore dick, ya' can't beat it! Had the opportunity to take it to the Utah dez once, and holy shit that is THE bike to have in the sand!
A 500 will EAT a 450 alive in the sand, there's just nothing like that raw unbridled 2-stroke h.p. in spoke deep sand, is there?
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 8:55am
ehr400 wrote:
My buddy is coming down to ride from toledo and he may have them too. Lol I know someone from our group of 6 has some...
My buddy is coming down to ride from toledo and he may have them too. Lol I know someone from our group of 6 has some fucking pics of it.
Lol. We can wait. Me thinkst this thread will live a few more days. Evil
jtomasik
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1/4/2013 9:10am
A 500 will EAT a 450 alive in the sand, there's just nothing like that raw unbridled 2-stroke h.p. in spoke deep sand, is there?
What surprises me is how well the bike can do in slick conditions if you don't ride by the seat of your pants; tractor it off idle and don't let the engine rev, and you'll find yourself motoring pretty damn good with the best of 'em. Additionally, the effect of the flywheel's inertia can be used to your advantage. Keep the rpm low, and the bike can be thrown around like a 250. Let the engine rev, and the bike will stabilize itself from the flywheel inertial effects. It's handy when you're hauling ass. The bike does NOT swap (at least my SH doesn't...maybe it's those 'shitty' welds...lol).

But, I'll agree is that it really shines in the sand. A sand wash is one fantastic place to let that baby rip. Never had it on the dunes, yet. Had my old CR500 and rode some dunes in Johnson Valley (albeit small ones), and it was a blast. I imagine this SH is a lot better, as it is in all other conditions than the old 5-hunny.

'Course none of this happens if you can't get your engine into the frame....lol.
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 9:23am
Lol. Exactly. My steel frame was HUGELY improved with putting the Showa Twin Chambers from my 04 on the front end. The overall performance was that much and then some, with the ally frame. I qualify it as I hung on to the steely, I ride the ally frame. Although in the mid 90's, I definitely rode the bitch. However, I was in my low 30's.
TerryK
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1/4/2013 9:28am
Rode Millville a few times on my steel framed CR500. First time there I struggled in the first session. I thought the track was beating the shit out of me. At the suggestion of a friend I tried leaving it in higher gears everywhere, which helped a lot. 3rd session I said fuck it, stuck it in 3rd and left it there. Viola! The whole track from whoops to big uphills and downhills, tight corners to fast sections: 3rd gear. Just use a little clutch in the tight stuff and chug through the rest. Try that with your so called "tractor" 4 stroke. Tongue
jtomasik
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1/4/2013 9:39am
TerryK wrote:
Rode Millville a few times on my steel framed CR500. First time there I struggled in the first session. I thought the track was beating the...
Rode Millville a few times on my steel framed CR500. First time there I struggled in the first session. I thought the track was beating the shit out of me. At the suggestion of a friend I tried leaving it in higher gears everywhere, which helped a lot. 3rd session I said fuck it, stuck it in 3rd and left it there. Viola! The whole track from whoops to big uphills and downhills, tight corners to fast sections: 3rd gear. Just use a little clutch in the tight stuff and chug through the rest. Try that with your so called "tractor" 4 stroke. Tongue
I'd bet! Millville is one of the tracks from the Nat's I'd love to ride. The torque on the 500 is so smooth it's deceiving. It feels like almost nothing is happening, but the bike is really pulling like a mo' fo'. Ride one of these by the seat of your pants, and you're dead meat. The bike'll kill ya'. The total rpm range is only about 6800 r's, so by the time you feel the mid-range hp hit, you have to shift. I always try to use the taller gear approach.

Ever try one with a Rekluse?
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 9:44am
Thinking that a Rekluse is the next thing on my list of "things to buy for my 500".
ehr400
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Britton, MI US
1/4/2013 10:30am
450 [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/01/04/farmall_83618.jpg[/img] 500 [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/01/04/BIG_farmall_368223.jpg[/img] Case closed.
450



500



Case closed.
Nice analogy! I have driven both styles of them tractors and it is pretty similar! Lol
125
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ZW
1/4/2013 10:35am
Lol. Exactly. My steel frame was HUGELY improved with putting the Showa Twin Chambers from my 04 on the front end. The overall performance was that...
Lol. Exactly. My steel frame was HUGELY improved with putting the Showa Twin Chambers from my 04 on the front end. The overall performance was that much and then some, with the ally frame. I qualify it as I hung on to the steely, I ride the ally frame. Although in the mid 90's, I definitely rode the bitch. However, I was in my low 30's.
if you have a chance, try putting the shock, swing arm and linkage from your 04 on to your steel CR500. Let me know if it fits.
ehr400
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1/4/2013 10:45am
Lol. Exactly. My steel frame was HUGELY improved with putting the Showa Twin Chambers from my 04 on the front end. The overall performance was that...
Lol. Exactly. My steel frame was HUGELY improved with putting the Showa Twin Chambers from my 04 on the front end. The overall performance was that much and then some, with the ally frame. I qualify it as I hung on to the steely, I ride the ally frame. Although in the mid 90's, I definitely rode the bitch. However, I was in my low 30's.
125 wrote:
if you have a chance, try putting the shock, swing arm and linkage from your 04 on to your steel CR500. Let me know if it...
if you have a chance, try putting the shock, swing arm and linkage from your 04 on to your steel CR500. Let me know if it fits.
I believe the diameter of the swing arm bolt is different size from the newer frame to the steel frame. Also I think the shock overall length may be different too.
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 10:52am
It could probably be done, but it's more work than I'm willing to pursue. I know the linkage ratio is off pretty badly on the steely, but I doubt it's anywhere near a direct crossover swap. I have an Ohlins on my 04, and I know THAT won't fit. Plus I have my 500 shock on my 93 chassis, so I can have the valving for my weight and the low and high speed compression adjustment. I'll try the swap, since the 04 is apart and needs the linkages greased anyway, but don't hold your breath. That's stepping into some seriously uncharted territory there, and I know that shock length difference between the 04 and 500 is HUGE. ( Although the difference in the pivot may compensate for that.) Already checked that. Wink
125
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1/4/2013 10:52am
Lol. Exactly. My steel frame was HUGELY improved with putting the Showa Twin Chambers from my 04 on the front end. The overall performance was that...
Lol. Exactly. My steel frame was HUGELY improved with putting the Showa Twin Chambers from my 04 on the front end. The overall performance was that much and then some, with the ally frame. I qualify it as I hung on to the steely, I ride the ally frame. Although in the mid 90's, I definitely rode the bitch. However, I was in my low 30's.
125 wrote:
if you have a chance, try putting the shock, swing arm and linkage from your 04 on to your steel CR500. Let me know if it...
if you have a chance, try putting the shock, swing arm and linkage from your 04 on to your steel CR500. Let me know if it fits.
ehr400 wrote:
I believe the diameter of the swing arm bolt is different size from the newer frame to the steel frame. Also I think the shock overall...
I believe the diameter of the swing arm bolt is different size from the newer frame to the steel frame. Also I think the shock overall length may be different too.
shock length shouldnt matter if you switch all the linkage and swing arm over with it. Swing arm pivot would be the only dealbreaker.
scooter5002
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1/4/2013 10:55am
Don't be so sure on that. The top mount height would figure into this as well. Plus the positioning of the reservoir, etc: It's more complicated than you think. Ive got bike parts coming out my ASS in my shop, and I've checked compatibility on a LOT of things.

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