Good read on Yamaha written by Matthes

JJO741
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2/9/2012 1:41pm
mxdude105 wrote:
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to...
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to see how James would do against the current competition on a works/JGR YZ250 race bike. He finished 4th out of the big four last year and is currently sitting in the same spot with the same issues he was having in 2011. Why not try it for a few races? What does he/they really have to lose? I have to believe that If you were to put someone of James' skill level on a bike that weighs less and handles better he could be competitive. Or at least as competitive as he has been thus far.
It will never happen. You can have a works 2 stroke for play riding, but at competition there is no way in hell you will see a rider on a 2 stroke in the 450 class at that level.

If the YZ250f had a better motor it would probably be a winner in a shootout. The suspension and handling are good but the motor is weak compared to Honda, Suzuki, and Kawasaki. I have no idea about the 450. Like its been stated, Yamaha makes good bikes but they need to step up with their support for teams and develop the bikes better.
newmann
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2/9/2012 1:57pm
So what Matthes says and JGR backs up is that Yamaha produces an innovative, yet mediocre bike and puts it out there with little to no support or refining. I can see that from Southeast Texas. Just more proof that the Japanese OEM's aren't concerned about moto. Must have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Thank goodness for KTM.
gjbruny
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2/9/2012 2:02pm
mxdude105 wrote:
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to...
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to see how James would do against the current competition on a works/JGR YZ250 race bike. He finished 4th out of the big four last year and is currently sitting in the same spot with the same issues he was having in 2011. Why not try it for a few races? What does he/they really have to lose? I have to believe that If you were to put someone of James' skill level on a bike that weighs less and handles better he could be competitive. Or at least as competitive as he has been thus far.
JJO741 wrote:
It will never happen. You can have a works 2 stroke for play riding, but at competition there is no way in hell you will see...
It will never happen. You can have a works 2 stroke for play riding, but at competition there is no way in hell you will see a rider on a 2 stroke in the 450 class at that level.

If the YZ250f had a better motor it would probably be a winner in a shootout. The suspension and handling are good but the motor is weak compared to Honda, Suzuki, and Kawasaki. I have no idea about the 450. Like its been stated, Yamaha makes good bikes but they need to step up with their support for teams and develop the bikes better.
i agree that we will probably never see it, but i am not sure that JS couldn't do as well as he currently is on a factory 2T....... but he would have to get into better condition. lol

look at it this way, everyone said that the 350 couldn't compete in the SX class and Short is exactly in the same spot with the 450 as he was with the 350...... People doubted that RD5 could hang on the KTM but he is right where he was last year on the Zuki.

in the right hands of someone like JS or CR22, who have raced 2Ts, i think the bike would be at less of a disadvantage than the 350, could be able to create lines that the 450s and 350s couldn't ect and is lighter than both bikes while feeling even lighter than it actually is.

tomac has been running top 3 to 4 average 450 lap times consistently on a bike that has much less power....... now imagine JS on a bike with power close to the 450s that weigh less than the 250Fs. of all the people, i think the 2T caters to JS's style. i for one don't think he would get slaughtered...... might even bring back some of his lost popularity.
Matthes
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2/9/2012 2:27pm
Everyone who is turning my column into a James Stewart can't win on a Yamaha or a (gasp!) two-stroke vs four-stroke comparison is way off base here.

It's not that at all- it's about how in my eyes, the failure to have a race team and the latest R&D tools developing what is, by all accounts, a different machine has hurt the company at pro racing levels. With plenty of privateers running away from Yamaha in both classes and pro teams switching brands- there's something amiss with Yamaha. Again, in my opinion.

For those saying I have a grudge against Yamaha, nothing could be further from the truth. I make fun of myself, KTM, Yamaha, Moto XXX and pretty much every team and rider I worked for over the years. Yes Yamaha comes up now and then but so does everyone else.

HERE'S something I wrote about Honda a year ago, sort of like what I wrote about Yamaha.

The Shop

lucero10x
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2/9/2012 2:33pm
Matthes wrote:
Everyone who is turning my column into a James Stewart can't win on a Yamaha or a (gasp!) two-stroke vs four-stroke comparison is way off base...
Everyone who is turning my column into a James Stewart can't win on a Yamaha or a (gasp!) two-stroke vs four-stroke comparison is way off base here.

It's not that at all- it's about how in my eyes, the failure to have a race team and the latest R&D tools developing what is, by all accounts, a different machine has hurt the company at pro racing levels. With plenty of privateers running away from Yamaha in both classes and pro teams switching brands- there's something amiss with Yamaha. Again, in my opinion.

For those saying I have a grudge against Yamaha, nothing could be further from the truth. I make fun of myself, KTM, Yamaha, Moto XXX and pretty much every team and rider I worked for over the years. Yes Yamaha comes up now and then but so does everyone else.

HERE'S something I wrote about Honda a year ago, sort of like what I wrote about Yamaha.
Come on, Steve, you weren't expecting thoughtful, insightful discussion were you? Every thread here, if it lives long enough, turns into a 2 strk vs. 4 strk or a James sucks because of X, Y and Z thread.
mark_swart
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2/9/2012 3:03pm
If JGR is serious enough about wanting to win that they try Dunlops when they are under Pirelli contract, I have to wonder if there's a shot they would ditch Yamaha ahead of schedule to go with something else if JS can't get it done by the end of SX. I'm racking my brain here and I just can't think of anything good that has happened for any of the top Yamaha pros since that new 450 design came out. Sure James has won a few, but that's from a guy who normally wins a LOT and not a few.
Underdog999
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2/9/2012 3:03pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 3:05pm
What is "proper R&D (at the racing level)" exactly ? IYO?
IceMan446 wrote:
Think that is pretty much self explanitory. JGR will get it figured out. They have the reaources and the ability to make components. Just going to...
Think that is pretty much self explanitory.

JGR will get it figured out. They have the reaources and the ability to make components. Just going to take some time to dail it all in.
No it isn't. (explanatory)

Everyone has a different take on what R&D and testing actually is.

And, if they are doing it "properly."

I also wonder, how does everyone know, like they seem to be saying here, that Yamaha didn't do their testing?? Just because someone said so on the internet and JS crashes alot???
DrSweden
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2/9/2012 3:24pm
Can someone please explain what MC and crew really did on the CRF to make it "that much better" for 2012? Stiffer fork springs, and cloning the aftermarket linkage to delete the stink bug thing (which actually Windham seems to like since he always used stock linkage on his Geico scooter), some revalving and new engine mapping?

Same frame, steering stem and forks. Engine in the same place as well while it sounds like MC reinvented the wheel over there?
Hank_Thrill
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2/9/2012 3:25pm
Great article!

Steve's right. Check it out for yourself this weekend folks.
The only people in the 450 main on a YZF will be Milsaps and Stewart.

Props to JGR. If Stewart is still racing next year I'll be surprised if JGR continues with Yamaha (barring some long term contract).
txmxer
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2/9/2012 3:28pm
sO mATTHES thinks that James will never win again, the YZ450 is the worst bike ever and everyone should go back to riding two strokes? Did I get that right?
Electro
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2/9/2012 3:58pm
tbanks wrote:
All of this makes me factor in James's decision to ride at JGR. His two choices were on a team and bike, with a program that...
All of this makes me factor in James's decision to ride at JGR.

His two choices were on a team and bike, with a program that seems IMO to be losing or falling away (factory suzuki). Or a team that can do everything you want with a bike lacking development from the builders (JGR).

It's a tough choice to make, and I have to say I probably would have choose the same. He didn't have any other decent offers....
Maybe , in time , the Yamaha will work out, I believe he has a lot of faith in JGR and their crew. Just been a rocky start but, by no means, nails in the coffin yet.
motomike137
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2/9/2012 4:24pm
mark_swart wrote:
If JGR is serious enough about wanting to win that they try Dunlops when they are under Pirelli contract, I have to wonder if there's a...
If JGR is serious enough about wanting to win that they try Dunlops when they are under Pirelli contract, I have to wonder if there's a shot they would ditch Yamaha ahead of schedule to go with something else if JS can't get it done by the end of SX. I'm racking my brain here and I just can't think of anything good that has happened for any of the top Yamaha pros since that new 450 design came out. Sure James has won a few, but that's from a guy who normally wins a LOT and not a few.
I think they put the Dunlop on to get a baseline feel in a certain condition/type of dirt in order to help with the Pirelli development. As for nothing great happening on the new design Yamaha since it came out James is the only one of the top 4 who has been contracted to ride it and he has ridden pretty much like he has always ridden but his competition has multiplied in numbers and gotten better. There doesn't appear to be many (if any) privateer Honda's out there either.
2/9/2012 4:57pm
Yamaha scored the most points of any brand in last years 450 Supercross series, how could that be? this year it looks like Kawi will get it.
Sprew
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2/9/2012 5:26pm
josh8811 wrote:
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes...
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes is a talking head funny guy and should avoid engineering speak.
x2
andymoto
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2/9/2012 6:30pm
Hill was a podium regular on the '10 before injuries slowed him down.
zippy895
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2/9/2012 7:14pm
does any of this have to do with contigency money being low on a yamaha?
also, what is yamahas situation over the pond .the same?
easton
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2/9/2012 7:22pm
If you ride all the other bikes then ride the Yami you will go to the pits and leave it there. Worst handling bike at speed i have ever rode. Never does the same thing twice and has a weird front end feel coming out of turns.

James will not be on a Yami next year.
Hando
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2/9/2012 7:35pm
in a few years, no teams will have factory backing and mx will be like ATV racing

yamaha was the first to make a 4-stroke MX bike and they will be the first to stop supporting the teams entirely
fader418
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2/9/2012 7:51pm
easton wrote:
If you ride all the other bikes then ride the Yami you will go to the pits and leave it there. Worst handling bike at speed...
If you ride all the other bikes then ride the Yami you will go to the pits and leave it there. Worst handling bike at speed i have ever rode. Never does the same thing twice and has a weird front end feel coming out of turns.

James will not be on a Yami next year.
pretty sure JGR signed a multi year deal with Yamaha. IF that is true James will indeed be on a Yamaha next year....
Xsenter
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2/9/2012 9:46pm
easton wrote:
If you ride all the other bikes then ride the Yami you will go to the pits and leave it there. Worst handling bike at speed...
If you ride all the other bikes then ride the Yami you will go to the pits and leave it there. Worst handling bike at speed i have ever rode. Never does the same thing twice and has a weird front end feel coming out of turns.

James will not be on a Yami next year.
fader418 wrote:
pretty sure JGR signed a multi year deal with Yamaha. IF that is true James will indeed be on a Yamaha next year....
Yes they did !

What amazes me most is that people in here seems to believe this the last model of the yz450f Yamaha will ever produce !!!?
Who knows...maybe Yamaha comes out with an new chassi in 2013 ?
IceMan446
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2/9/2012 11:00pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 11:07pm
easton wrote:
If you ride all the other bikes then ride the Yami you will go to the pits and leave it there. Worst handling bike at speed...
If you ride all the other bikes then ride the Yami you will go to the pits and leave it there. Worst handling bike at speed i have ever rode. Never does the same thing twice and has a weird front end feel coming out of turns.

James will not be on a Yami next year.
fader418 wrote:
pretty sure JGR signed a multi year deal with Yamaha. IF that is true James will indeed be on a Yamaha next year....
Xsenter wrote:
Yes they did ! What amazes me most is that people in here seems to believe this the last model of the yz450f Yamaha will ever...
Yes they did !

What amazes me most is that people in here seems to believe this the last model of the yz450f Yamaha will ever produce !!!?
Who knows...maybe Yamaha comes out with an new chassi in 2013 ?
Doubt it. Their 2013 model is already done. Like Matthes said in the PulpShow, they are probably already working on the 2014 and use a 4 year plan for each model. Besides the two strokes obviously.

They wont do for James what KTM did for Dungey.
IceMan446
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2/9/2012 11:06pm
What is "proper R&D (at the racing level)" exactly ? IYO?
IceMan446 wrote:
Think that is pretty much self explanitory. JGR will get it figured out. They have the reaources and the ability to make components. Just going to...
Think that is pretty much self explanitory.

JGR will get it figured out. They have the reaources and the ability to make components. Just going to take some time to dail it all in.
No it isn't. (explanatory) Everyone has a different take on what R&D and testing actually is. And, if they are doing it "properly." I also wonder...
No it isn't. (explanatory)

Everyone has a different take on what R&D and testing actually is.

And, if they are doing it "properly."

I also wonder, how does everyone know, like they seem to be saying here, that Yamaha didn't do their testing?? Just because someone said so on the internet and JS crashes alot???
I'm pretty sure that Matthes would have more insight on this topic then anyone else on this board next to DV. Since he would know first hand what Factory Yamaha did or did not do for the MC last year.

And like Matthes said, they have suspension and components but they are so expensive no one will buy them. So sure, they may do some testing but who is doing it. And if they don't share the findings, is it even really worth it? No.

And outdoor testing doesn't do a thing for SX. So the GP's don't help much at all.

I doubt James and every other Yamaha team has got any good support from the Factory, in either R&D, testing, motor help or anything. Which is why JGR decided to build all their own shit.

Lets say, Yamaha gets a black eye from this whole thing. Do you think they will step up to the plate to help the teams that run Yamaha's?

JGR might just say forget y'all and do their own thing, since they have been forced to already.
Rizzo
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2/9/2012 11:40pm
Xsenter wrote:
Matthes is soo Yamaha bitter ! In almost every pulpshow or podcast he finds something to bad talk Yamaha . Its almost commical. I really like...
Matthes is soo Yamaha bitter ! In almost every pulpshow or podcast he finds something to bad talk Yamaha . Its almost commical.

I really like Matthes work with pulpshow and podcasts ...its awesome to be completely honest. But this Yamaha trash talk is really starting to be a bit annoying.

To normal riders the bike ain't any worse than the other brands. Awesome motor , good stock suspension components and superior quality. The handling is different but it's all about learning to set it up...it needs a little different thinking.
Pro' s in both US and world mx have won on it last season. James Stewart in sx and Steven Frossard and David Philephaerts in world GP's.


It's time to give up this crap talk that bike is the reason for bad results. James failures are mostly done by bad judgement and to eager to outshine the competion. Most crashes has happened when James done things others won't dare to try. He jumps stuff that wornt built to jump...is it really that strange he crashes ?!
"To normal riders the bike ain't any worse than the other brands. Awesome motor , good stock suspension components and superior quality. The handling is different but it's all about learning to set it up"..........................................................................................Since when does Matthes or any other moto journalist(use the term lightly) go to PRO races and reports on normal riders? He reports on SX/MX pro's, the top of the food chain, he's not reporting on Joe Smith Northeastern Southwest Arizona regional local pro champion. Your argument was done the minute you said "normal." Proof is in the pudding, results, C-ships, wins, etc. JGR is only using the frame and the cases for the most part, the suspension and motor work is all their own development. Thats the same as their NASCAR cars where the only thing Toyota is the motor and fiberglass body followed by the BIG ASS checks that were deposited from the factory. But, you go ahead and tell it, people are bitter....whatever!
bullpen58
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2/9/2012 11:46pm
Great article Mr. Matthes.

But I still love my Yamaha. Tongue

I got it set-up PERFECTLY for an elderly, beginner level wannabe poser.
Motodave15
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2/10/2012 12:22am Edited Date/Time 2/10/2012 12:25am
I bet, if jgr was to try and bail from the yamaha... there would be a insane amount of litigation.

Also great article!
2/10/2012 12:45am
Matthes wrote:
Everyone who is turning my column into a James Stewart can't win on a Yamaha or a (gasp!) two-stroke vs four-stroke comparison is way off base...
Everyone who is turning my column into a James Stewart can't win on a Yamaha or a (gasp!) two-stroke vs four-stroke comparison is way off base here.

It's not that at all- it's about how in my eyes, the failure to have a race team and the latest R&D tools developing what is, by all accounts, a different machine has hurt the company at pro racing levels. With plenty of privateers running away from Yamaha in both classes and pro teams switching brands- there's something amiss with Yamaha. Again, in my opinion.

For those saying I have a grudge against Yamaha, nothing could be further from the truth. I make fun of myself, KTM, Yamaha, Moto XXX and pretty much every team and rider I worked for over the years. Yes Yamaha comes up now and then but so does everyone else.

HERE'S something I wrote about Honda a year ago, sort of like what I wrote about Yamaha.
One could only wonder what caused Yamaha to pull their factory team huh? (insert sarcasm)
jamma10
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2/10/2012 2:37am Edited Date/Time 2/10/2012 2:39am
zippy895 wrote:
does any of this have to do with contigency money being low on a yamaha?
also, what is yamahas situation over the pond .the same?
The Yamaha's have been really competitive, but then Rinaldi Yamaha is a large, established factory team. Frossard was winning races last year, but they have also had their problems.

This is quite an insightful interview Matthes did with Josh Coppins back in 2011 (yamaha talk starts at 13.50).

Coppins on the YZF
2/10/2012 3:34am
zippy895 wrote:
does any of this have to do with contigency money being low on a yamaha?
also, what is yamahas situation over the pond .the same?
jamma10 wrote:
The Yamaha's have been really competitive, but then Rinaldi Yamaha is a large, established factory team. Frossard was winning races last year, but they have also...
The Yamaha's have been really competitive, but then Rinaldi Yamaha is a large, established factory team. Frossard was winning races last year, but they have also had their problems.

This is quite an insightful interview Matthes did with Josh Coppins back in 2011 (yamaha talk starts at 13.50).

Coppins on the YZF
great interview- you can't argue with josh coppins' credentials!
2/10/2012 4:44am
My stepson who is a pro, rides the 250 in sx right now, but will be switching to the 450 for outdoors. He isn't getting paid...
My stepson who is a pro, rides the 250 in sx right now, but will be switching to the 450 for outdoors.

He isn't getting paid to ride it.
Yeah! The same with my x-2b-son-in-law. Racing 250 now and is moving to the 450 for East and Outdoor. He looked great last week until they lowered the whoops? He is getting paid, has been fast, but not fast enough. That 250 front end was bouncing everywhere. Maybe arm pump? Guessing suspension set-up?
RaceFace
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2/10/2012 4:45am
What is "proper R&D (at the racing level)" exactly ? IYO?
IceMan446 wrote:
Think that is pretty much self explanitory. JGR will get it figured out. They have the reaources and the ability to make components. Just going to...
Think that is pretty much self explanitory.

JGR will get it figured out. They have the reaources and the ability to make components. Just going to take some time to dail it all in.
No it isn't. (explanatory) Everyone has a different take on what R&D and testing actually is. And, if they are doing it "properly." I also wonder...
No it isn't. (explanatory)

Everyone has a different take on what R&D and testing actually is.

And, if they are doing it "properly."

I also wonder, how does everyone know, like they seem to be saying here, that Yamaha didn't do their testing?? Just because someone said so on the internet and JS crashes alot???
I have to agree with this. If Yamaha isn't doing enough R&D to make people happy then how the hell are they going to develop a new bike for coming years? Maybe people forget that a good portion of the development takes place in Japan and we often see the new secret designs being tested in the Japanese Nationals? Bike setup is bike setup, and James has admitted he sucks at it. RC would set his bike up in a fashion that magazine testers could not imagine riding on it, so it is hard to setup a bike for one guy and have it work for another always. It is pretty hard to set up a bike for a guy that can't tell you what it needs. It seems like with James they just throw things at it until his times improve. James has always crashed and has won titles after having big crashes during a series. Nothing new. He did it on a Kawasaki (2 stroke and 4 stroke), he did it on the previous Yamaha design when Yamaha was running a factory team. The only thing that is new is there are guys to make mistakes much more damaging points-wise. In the old days he gets up at round 1 and 2 and still gets 3rd or maybe even 2nd. Now he gets 8th and 6th. Add in that he didn't race for 8 months while everyone else did, he rode a Suzuki for a decent amount of that time and didn't do anything Yamaha related (testing or bike setup) until way late in the preseason. RV started testing the Kawasaki at Unadilla last year before JGR ever even asked for James' phone number.

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