Bike Classes / Displacement Fixes ?

Slow450
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1/30/2012 5:29pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2012 5:29pm
I agree it would be exiciting to see all the top guys in the SX class on 250s or something in between, but I don't see that happening until everyone (or at least a couple of the Japanese brands) is fielding 350s or 250 TC's. I'm sure they have enough clout with AMA to prevent having to react to change like that by the seat of their pants. I think what happened in the late 90s was a result of most not thinking four strokes would work again and yamaha taking a leap of faith. I don't see that happening again going the other way.
Neil_Romero
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Sacramento, CA, USA
1/30/2012 5:48pm
I think there might be a simple solution that will solve many problems and save everyone money all at the same time.

A REAL claiming rule in the 250 class. ONLY in the 250 class.
If any bike in the class could be "claimed" for say..$12K. (I'm guessing at the number here.)

Privateers could actually afford to be compete, as it stands now, unless you are dumping buckets of $$ into your 250F motor EVERY race you can't compete.
Even the bigger teams benefit - because they won't need to invest nearly as much as before. They still maintain a competitive advantage-spending more money on training / testing.
When you hear team managers saying they can't afford to go racing in that class, there is a real problem there. This class is supposed to be the entry level to SX / MX?
I don't claim to know the other ramifications of this rule, are there any?
Discuss.
Toste
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Fantasy
1/30/2012 7:01pm
Mstock wrote:
Put the Factory and Satelite teams in 1 premier class. Yep. Tomac, Wilson, Rattray, Roczen, Musquin, Bagget, M Stewart, Barcia, all them boys are better than...
Put the Factory and Satelite teams in 1 premier class. Yep. Tomac, Wilson, Rattray, Roczen, Musquin, Bagget, M Stewart, Barcia, all them boys are better than the bottom 10 in the "premier" class. That is wrong.
^^^This.
bents
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Fantasy
1/30/2012 9:03pm
Supercross-250cc 2 or 4 stroke=premier class, 125 cc 2 stroke developmental class with 18 yr old age restriction. Heats, semi's, LCQ's, and consolation final in the premier class. Outdoors, 450=premier class (MX1), 250, 2 or 4 stroke (MX2), and 125cc class=developmental with 18 yr old age restriction.

The Shop

PFO186
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Brewerton, NY, USA
1/31/2012 11:08am
have an open class where you run what you brung (most likey a 450) and then have a 125cc or a 150cc class with an extremely STRICT production rule to allow for much cheaper racing. it would actually be a feeder class, not the more expensive class like it is right now. would even out the playing field and give PC and FC much less of an advantage. i'm sure mitch would love it if he only had to spend 1/10th of the money he does now, maybe more of his money can go towards the riders and not R&D and parts.
Ing
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1/31/2012 12:42pm
mrquick wrote:
Yep...125's 250's and a 450 open class. Now we're talking.
Quoted for truth.
burn1986
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bossier city, LA, USA
1/31/2012 12:49pm
Rupert X wrote:
My opinion, since you asked so delicately, politely and inquisitively, is that 450's gots no bi'ness in Supercross. Also, this summer, outdoors, proved that the 250's...
My opinion, since you asked so delicately, politely and inquisitively, is that 450's gots no bi'ness in Supercross.

Also, this summer, outdoors, proved that the 250's, in some sections, appear faster and capable of clearing things

the 450's can't or won't (?)

While it is also apparent - and has been for some time, that the top 250 riders can get around the indoor courses AS

FAST - or FASTER than many of the dudes on For-Fiddies - is it time we make 250's the premiere class in SX ?

AS it used to be ?

And, dare I say it, let the junior class be smoking about on machines with less valves and cams and what-not ?

Speak now, or forever hold your launch control..
I agree that 450s are too fast for SX. I don't see the 250Fs being the premier clase. However, I can see the OEMS considering a less dispplacement of the 450. The only way that will happen is to eliminate the 2s. This will be priority number one in the next year. The juniors should be on 125s, but this won't happen.
FourFoopty
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Basking Ridge, NJ, USA
1/31/2012 11:24pm
cc for cc wont change PC's advantage? I bet even Mitch Payton himself would disagree with that.
Ltiszen ihme hte irfst one ot say i love 4 stonks, but.

Payton wouldn't even have to WORRY about equal capacities,,, He could go back to building 125's and his bikes would be the fastest ones out there...
SwapperMX
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AU
1/31/2012 11:41pm
Rupert is the MAN !! Would be great to see some changes made to the bike classes and to no longer have any displacement handicaps.
Gilletty
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Sunshine Coast, AU
2/1/2012 1:36am
mrquick wrote:
Yep...125's 250's and a 450 open class. Now we're talking.
Ing wrote:
Quoted for truth.
And then the MON would make sense again instead of having the same bike in two different"classes"
2/1/2012 6:17am Edited Date/Time 2/1/2012 6:17am
Rupert X wrote:
I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know...
I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know WTF they are talking about." -

Charles, then I 'm one of those then that doesn't know WTF they are talking about. As much as I love the smokers and want

to see them on equal footing, I think the MAJORITY of riders would turn faster laps on a Geico Honda or a PC 250F

vice any of the current 250 smokers offered. Yes, that's my opinion.
GHR wrote:
This is a real tough one, I am hard pressed to believe that a 250T cant holeshot a 250F given the same weight / talent rider...
This is a real tough one, I am hard pressed to believe that a 250T cant holeshot a 250F given the same weight / talent rider.

It is possible, based on the 250F ergos and compression breaking and such, that it can do lap after lap a tad faster than the 250T but in a 20 man gate we all know how important a holeshot is.....

I say let everyone run what they brung, its each riders call to race what they want....PERIOD.

Get around the track as fast as you can on whatever you want. If you want to build some stupid contraption that gets you a holeshot only to throw anchor, thats your call....

Do a damn free for all....
A 53hp 210lb bike would have noooo trouble holeshotting a 35hp 225lb bike with an equal rider.
GHR
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2/1/2012 8:58am
Rupert X wrote:
I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know...
I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know WTF they are talking about." -

Charles, then I 'm one of those then that doesn't know WTF they are talking about. As much as I love the smokers and want

to see them on equal footing, I think the MAJORITY of riders would turn faster laps on a Geico Honda or a PC 250F

vice any of the current 250 smokers offered. Yes, that's my opinion.
GHR wrote:
This is a real tough one, I am hard pressed to believe that a 250T cant holeshot a 250F given the same weight / talent rider...
This is a real tough one, I am hard pressed to believe that a 250T cant holeshot a 250F given the same weight / talent rider.

It is possible, based on the 250F ergos and compression breaking and such, that it can do lap after lap a tad faster than the 250T but in a 20 man gate we all know how important a holeshot is.....

I say let everyone run what they brung, its each riders call to race what they want....PERIOD.

Get around the track as fast as you can on whatever you want. If you want to build some stupid contraption that gets you a holeshot only to throw anchor, thats your call....

Do a damn free for all....
A 53hp 210lb bike would have noooo trouble holeshotting a 35hp 225lb bike with an equal rider.
X2
GrapeApe
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Mc Kinney, TX, USA
2/1/2012 9:09am
GHR wrote:
This is a real tough one, I am hard pressed to believe that a 250T cant holeshot a 250F given the same weight / talent rider...
This is a real tough one, I am hard pressed to believe that a 250T cant holeshot a 250F given the same weight / talent rider.

It is possible, based on the 250F ergos and compression breaking and such, that it can do lap after lap a tad faster than the 250T but in a 20 man gate we all know how important a holeshot is.....

I say let everyone run what they brung, its each riders call to race what they want....PERIOD.

Get around the track as fast as you can on whatever you want. If you want to build some stupid contraption that gets you a holeshot only to throw anchor, thats your call....

Do a damn free for all....
A 53hp 210lb bike would have noooo trouble holeshotting a 35hp 225lb bike with an equal rider.
GHR wrote:
X2
While that may sound like a great fact on paper, in the real world it just doesn't play out that way. If you don't believe me, go to the next big amateur national in your area and watch the 250 classes. There will be a couple of 2 stroke 250's in there, and they don't show any obvious advantage on the starts.
2/1/2012 9:15am
and 35hp @225lbs is a hotrodded 250F. 53hp @210lbs is a bone stock 250SX off the KTM showroom floor. imagine what the 250SX that Cairoli was going to race in the last round of the GPs makes?

interestingly the 450SXF makes 53hp, too and weighs 238-ish lbs.
2/1/2012 9:16am
GrapeApe wrote:
While that may sound like a great fact on paper, in the real world it just doesn't play out that way. If you don't believe me...
While that may sound like a great fact on paper, in the real world it just doesn't play out that way. If you don't believe me, go to the next big amateur national in your area and watch the 250 classes. There will be a couple of 2 stroke 250's in there, and they don't show any obvious advantage on the starts.
And we both know they are clapped 4 year old 46hp YZs. Were any of them 11-12 KTMs?
GuyB
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Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
2/1/2012 9:19am
Okay, poof...we're back to 125s.

What are the GEICO Honda, Troy Lee Designs Lucas Oil Honda, Rockstar Energy Suzuki, and Monster Energy Pro Circuit Kawasaki guys going to ride?
2/1/2012 9:24am
GuyB wrote:
Okay, poof...we're back to 125s. What are the GEICO Honda, Troy Lee Designs Lucas Oil Honda, Rockstar Energy Suzuki, and Monster Energy Pro Circuit Kawasaki guys...
Okay, poof...we're back to 125s.

What are the GEICO Honda, Troy Lee Designs Lucas Oil Honda, Rockstar Energy Suzuki, and Monster Energy Pro Circuit Kawasaki guys going to ride?
You've been around long enough to know that class changes aren't "poof". Look at how Dorna did the MotoGP/Moto2 and most recently Moto3 change.

They make an announcement. The OEM develop/test bikes and they still allow a year or 2 of "co-ed" racing.

and it looks like Suzuki is going to drop a new RM125 with that new FIM (drum roll) class change. Wishful thinking maybe. We'll see.
GrapeApe
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2/1/2012 9:29am
GrapeApe wrote:
While that may sound like a great fact on paper, in the real world it just doesn't play out that way. If you don't believe me...
While that may sound like a great fact on paper, in the real world it just doesn't play out that way. If you don't believe me, go to the next big amateur national in your area and watch the 250 classes. There will be a couple of 2 stroke 250's in there, and they don't show any obvious advantage on the starts.
And we both know they are clapped 4 year old 46hp YZs. Were any of them 11-12 KTMs?
You're right, all of the KTM riders seem to choose the 2011 250f's over the 2011 250 2 strokes. Why is that do you think? I was once a fledgling amateur starving for recognition on the national scene. If I had an option that gave me an undeniable advantage I would have jumped at the opportunity.
Rupert X
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2/1/2012 2:45pm
Mr. Bronson, where your logic fails, is to presume that Supercross is a horsepower battle, if this were the case, the

450's would be getting 50% quicker lap times, which, obviously, they're not, in fact, it does appear that on some tracks

a 250 would be better (in the right hands). I applaud you standing up for the two-smokers, but I think with the last ten years

of development to the four strokers AND especially the bikes in the hands of the right tuners (Geico Hondas and PC Kaws)

- I think we'd have a difficult time finding a current rider on any of the presently offered two-strokes - or past years models,

matching lap times with the strokers. But I still would like to see THAT battle. Let CC's be equal, we say.
2/1/2012 4:20pm
am i the only one who saw a guy who had never raced a 125 two stroke finish 6th in the last GP of 2011? I think he was ahead of Zach Osborne, too.

maybe someone will make a wenkel rotary engine for a bike. then we'd all be in trouble.
LoudLove
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2/1/2012 5:42pm
It's doubtful that the OEMs will allow cross-polinization of 250 & 450 in SX, as it could diminish their marketing strength should one manufacturer's big bike consistently lose to a small bore. It's Japan, not the AMA, that's primarily driving the current racing structure.

But most of us do not ride aggressive SX courses in the tight confines of a stadium or arena. By in large tracks are more "outdoor" in nature, with perhaps a few SX obstacles thrown in. This is where the gap between 250 and 450 is exposed, especially for expert and pro riders. So perhaps mixing displacements won't have a measurable impact on sales. (Just build a great product, and it will sell.)

The concept of blending displacements in a "premier" class has merit, on two fronts: 1) it provides for greater competition and 2) allows the "feeder" class to run 350/450s, which typically require less maintenance and can be "de-tuned" to fit the rider's skill level.

Like that's ever going to happen...
GHR
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2/1/2012 7:06pm
Rupert X wrote:
Mr. Bronson, where your logic fails, is to presume that Supercross is a horsepower battle, if this were the case, the 450's would be getting 50%...
Mr. Bronson, where your logic fails, is to presume that Supercross is a horsepower battle, if this were the case, the

450's would be getting 50% quicker lap times, which, obviously, they're not, in fact, it does appear that on some tracks

a 250 would be better (in the right hands). I applaud you standing up for the two-smokers, but I think with the last ten years

of development to the four strokers AND especially the bikes in the hands of the right tuners (Geico Hondas and PC Kaws)

- I think we'd have a difficult time finding a current rider on any of the presently offered two-strokes - or past years models,

matching lap times with the strokers. But I still would like to see THAT battle. Let CC's be equal, we say.
SX indeed is NOT a horsepower battle but the starts are.

and the start (unless your Hansen going ending up in 10th no matter what as we have seen) is very important to how the race turns out at the end....

I believe the 250F is faster all around bike on SX track once the start is over.

But give me a 250T on a start against 250Fs with same skilled riders as me and I will show you more holeshots than not.

Unless of course the start is abnormally short straight.... Pulling the same 2nd gear, then click 3rd with a bigger motor and lighter bike equals holeshot more often than not given the same skilled riders. Stopping however takes more skill on the 250T....so there is truth there too..
Slow450
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USA
2/1/2012 7:28pm Edited Date/Time 2/1/2012 7:28pm
and 35hp @225lbs is a hotrodded 250F. 53hp @210lbs is a bone stock 250SX off the KTM showroom floor. imagine what the 250SX that Cairoli was...
and 35hp @225lbs is a hotrodded 250F. 53hp @210lbs is a bone stock 250SX off the KTM showroom floor. imagine what the 250SX that Cairoli was going to race in the last round of the GPs makes?

interestingly the 450SXF makes 53hp, too and weighs 238-ish lbs.
With as much as knowledge as you drop on the regular I would expect better in your assessment of 250Fs. 35 is bottom of the barrel for the stockers. KX250Fs are closer to 40 off the showroom floor, and what you can DIY with some cash puts you into the mid forties. That's not the only metric of success for everyone from pro's to joe's either, but it is what the discussion is at this point. 35hp on a hot rodded 250F? Maybe in 2004.
chump6784
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2/1/2012 7:58pm
and 35hp @225lbs is a hotrodded 250F. 53hp @210lbs is a bone stock 250SX off the KTM showroom floor. imagine what the 250SX that Cairoli was...
and 35hp @225lbs is a hotrodded 250F. 53hp @210lbs is a bone stock 250SX off the KTM showroom floor. imagine what the 250SX that Cairoli was going to race in the last round of the GPs makes?

interestingly the 450SXF makes 53hp, too and weighs 238-ish lbs.
Slow450 wrote:
With as much as knowledge as you drop on the regular I would expect better in your assessment of 250Fs. 35 is bottom of the barrel...
With as much as knowledge as you drop on the regular I would expect better in your assessment of 250Fs. 35 is bottom of the barrel for the stockers. KX250Fs are closer to 40 off the showroom floor, and what you can DIY with some cash puts you into the mid forties. That's not the only metric of success for everyone from pro's to joe's either, but it is what the discussion is at this point. 35hp on a hot rodded 250F? Maybe in 2004.
also i have never seen the ktm 250 sx make 53hp. MXA states 50 in their latest test.

if MX/SX was drag racing on asphalt the 2 stroke would be king but its not. Traction is a big issue when riding on dirt and that is where the 4 stroke has its advantage.

I have been racing an RM 250 against 250f's and the initial jump they get off the line is slightly better than mine, they seem to wheelstand less while still getting good grip. (technique is obviously involved here too). once i click 3rd and the bike starts to rev out i start to make good ground on any 4 stroke that got the jump on me and if it is a decent straight where i can click 4th and hold it for a little bit i can pretty much holeshot. a supercross start is fairly short and i dont think you would see a huge difference there, outdoors is a different story though

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