Running a moto track

Moto331
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Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:07pm
Why is it so expensive? I dont understand. If you own the equipment, and the land, what else could be so extreme? Water? Insurance? If a track is open 3 days a week, and brings in 200 riders a day, thats 600. 600 times 20 bucks is 12000 bucks. Times that by four and that is almost fifty thousand dollars! A month!! I just dont understand. Ofcourse you wont get that many riders all the time. Please help me out with this because I have always wanted to have my own track but people keep saying its not worth it..
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Moto331
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Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
12/18/2011 9:40pm
I forgot about paying track people (flaggers ect) and the bathrooms. I bet that is pricey.
TerryK
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12/18/2011 9:57pm
lol, where do I start? Bee there, done that!

Insurance is ridiculous, as are ambulance fees. If you have an all volunteer staff that will help, but chances are that wont happen, especially when people know you are making bank. You need at least 20 people to run a tack on a practice day and more than double that on a race day. Do the math. Then there's fuel for equipment, not to mention maintaining said equipment, buying things like a starting gate, lumber and such for buildings, PA system, tools, banners, signage, track markers, fencing, water pumps, hose, office supplies, furniture, advertising, etc etc etc. Plus there's taxes and county fees etc. And it's not just on days you have practice or races that you spend money. You have to maintain and repair the track and building between events and unless you are committed full time, you are going to have to hire people and that is not cheap and neither is the fuel for the equipment they'll be running.

Trust me, I could go on.

Many many people ask the same question you do because it looks so easy, but the trick is to see the hidden and not so hidden costs. It's a tough go but if you want to try it make sure you OVERESTIMATE your costs by at least 40% so you have a buffer. And be prepared to have NO life other than the track. It's a commitment probably beyond anything you've ever done. You'll work your ass off and people will still bitch at you every single day. Ever try pleasing 200 people at the same time?
Moto331
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Coeur d'Alene, ID, USA
12/18/2011 10:10pm
WOW. Yeah, sounds tough. I couldnt imagine. I have always thougt of just having a really sick track at home where guys would still come to ride. 10 bucks a head or something.
mx510
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1993
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Gig Harbor, WA, USA
12/18/2011 10:11pm
^^^^^^^^^^^^This. Track owners and operaters are GREATLY unappreciated in the PNW at least. MXers are a fickle bunch to try and please, and its seemingly getting worse.

The Shop

Moto331
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12/18/2011 10:13pm
Well with all that said Terry, how much would you make a year? I know it depends on alot of things, but what would you say?
TerryK
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12/18/2011 10:23pm
Moto331 wrote:
Well with all that said Terry, how much would you make a year? I know it depends on alot of things, but what would you say?
Well its hard to say because the number of riders you get each time varies wildly. Things like conflicting events and rain really cut your entries. I can tell you that with 250-275 entries, after expenses we were bringing in about 3500 - $3800 on a race day with paying spectators. Thats not very much considering you still have expenses during the week and the initial start up costs. Part of it also depends on what you think YOUR time is worth? If you are willing to work for 5 bucks an hour this might be your deal lol 12-16 hour days are the norm, and the more people that show up to race and spectate, the more work it is and the longer the hours. Do you reralize how much garbage 275 racers, there families and friends (say, 600) and spectators (1000 or more) make??? Someone has to clean that mess up at the end of the day before they go home. Have fun finding people to pick up garbage after working in the hot sun and dust for 8 hours. lol
12/18/2011 11:39pm
who owns that kind of land or equipment straight up anymore these days?
mx757
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Pueblo, CO, USA
12/19/2011 12:10am
Im good friends with the owner of a track (race and practice) about 45 miles from my house. What he has said is that he makes more running small, non sanctioned races with nearly 100 riders than he does having a full blown full day race weekend. For the unsanctioned races he runs a skeleton crew of flaggers (maybe 5 total, including the finish line) 2 people in sign up, no scorers (AMB transponder system) and running track prep himself, however the sanctioned races, he has an ambulance crew on hand (i wanna say 40-50 an hour) 10 flaggers, 3 scorers, 3 sign up people, someone at the entrance gate, a stager, plus a sanctioning fee, and $1 from every race sign up goes into the pro points fund for the end of the year payout. From what I understand he needs 375 sign ups to break even for a race weekend.
Walter
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Tucson, AZ, USA
12/19/2011 5:26am
I have been down this road as well. TerryK has hit the nail on the head in his posts.

You also start with some pretty big "ifs": already owning the land and the equipment.
P
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Greensboro, NC, USA
12/19/2011 5:59am
20 people to run a track on a practice day? Not where I live. That might be a good race day number though. Two or three gets it done here from what I've seen. I can't imagine advertising being that much here either. It's all word of mouth, fliers, and the internet. The main track that I go to has one large water truck and maybe two tractors/bulldozers. This is a track that holds pretty big races in the Southeastern United States. I'm not saying that it's inexpensive I'm just throwing out what I've encountered in my area.


P
jndmx
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South Kingston, RI, USA
12/19/2011 6:07am
mx757 wrote:
Im good friends with the owner of a track (race and practice) about 45 miles from my house. What he has said is that he makes...
Im good friends with the owner of a track (race and practice) about 45 miles from my house. What he has said is that he makes more running small, non sanctioned races with nearly 100 riders than he does having a full blown full day race weekend. For the unsanctioned races he runs a skeleton crew of flaggers (maybe 5 total, including the finish line) 2 people in sign up, no scorers (AMB transponder system) and running track prep himself, however the sanctioned races, he has an ambulance crew on hand (i wanna say 40-50 an hour) 10 flaggers, 3 scorers, 3 sign up people, someone at the entrance gate, a stager, plus a sanctioning fee, and $1 from every race sign up goes into the pro points fund for the end of the year payout. From what I understand he needs 375 sign ups to break even for a race weekend.
No offense but if your friend is running races even "non-sanctioned" races and doesn't have an ambulance crew on hand he is being foolish.
The track where I work mostly runs their own series which is unsanctioned but we always.....always have 2 ambulance crews on site.
We've had riders down even on slow days who were unresponsive and if it were not for the EMT staff they might have died right there on the side of the track.

We go to practice tracks where there isn't an ambulance on hand and quite frankly it makes me very nervous.
justme
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Southern Texas, TX, USA
12/19/2011 6:25am
TerryK wrote:
lol, where do I start? Bee there, done that! Insurance is ridiculous, as are ambulance fees. If you have an all volunteer staff that will help...
lol, where do I start? Bee there, done that!

Insurance is ridiculous, as are ambulance fees. If you have an all volunteer staff that will help, but chances are that wont happen, especially when people know you are making bank. You need at least 20 people to run a tack on a practice day and more than double that on a race day. Do the math. Then there's fuel for equipment, not to mention maintaining said equipment, buying things like a starting gate, lumber and such for buildings, PA system, tools, banners, signage, track markers, fencing, water pumps, hose, office supplies, furniture, advertising, etc etc etc. Plus there's taxes and county fees etc. And it's not just on days you have practice or races that you spend money. You have to maintain and repair the track and building between events and unless you are committed full time, you are going to have to hire people and that is not cheap and neither is the fuel for the equipment they'll be running.

Trust me, I could go on.

Many many people ask the same question you do because it looks so easy, but the trick is to see the hidden and not so hidden costs. It's a tough go but if you want to try it make sure you OVERESTIMATE your costs by at least 40% so you have a buffer. And be prepared to have NO life other than the track. It's a commitment probably beyond anything you've ever done. You'll work your ass off and people will still bitch at you every single day. Ever try pleasing 200 people at the same time?
This is it right here^^^^
Owning your own land and all equipment free and clear is a big plus and the way the economy is going a must anymore unless you have someone out there with gobs of investment $$ then you suddenly have a partner in the mix. Sometimes good more times than not no good. The track scene that was not mentioned is that for every year your open you age 5 years start young!!!!
mark_swart
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Chapin, SC, USA
12/19/2011 8:08am
Was talking to a club member from one of my local tracks yesterday -- he said every practice weekend costs about $900 alone for gas for the heavy equipment. Granted, it's a sand track so the jumps get refaced and everything smoothed back out, but that seems high to me.
mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL, USA
12/19/2011 8:29am
Event insurance per day is $800-$1,000.
On-site ambulance is about $1,200 per day + alot more if that ambulance has to leave and bring another in return.
Proper amount of equipment to run track can get to $100K really fast.
For a proper sized track and parking you need at lest 50-100 acres of land at $5,000 to $10,000 per acre.
Costs for running track, paying employees, etc.

If you don't already own the land and some of the equipment, I would be surprised if the track ever turned a profit without some business partners for financial support.

If you already owned the land, owned some equipment, and continued to gradually build the track and grounds up as finances permitted w/o borrowing huge loans to do so, then eventually you could probably start turning profits. This is the only way to do it.
mjskier
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12/19/2011 9:54am
On-site ambulance is about $1,200 per day + alot more if that ambulance has to leave and bring another in return.

One of my buddy runs the ambulance crew at the local races. His ambulance never leaves the site. He and his crew are there as first response. For anybody that needs to be evacuated the local fire department gets called. I would assume that the cost of the ride falls on the rider being evacuated.
mxtech1
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12/19/2011 10:04am
mjskier wrote:
[b]On-site ambulance is about $1,200 per day + alot more if that ambulance has to leave and bring another in return.[/b] One of my buddy runs...
On-site ambulance is about $1,200 per day + alot more if that ambulance has to leave and bring another in return.

One of my buddy runs the ambulance crew at the local races. His ambulance never leaves the site. He and his crew are there as first response. For anybody that needs to be evacuated the local fire department gets called. I would assume that the cost of the ride falls on the rider being evacuated.
Yes the transport cost is paid by the rider. At our track, the injured rider can always refuse ambulance treatment and services if they are hurt in such a way that it is not an emergency or life-threataning. In alot of cases, the injured riders will have a buddy drive them to our hospital which is only about 10 minutes away
mjskier
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12/19/2011 10:12am
It probably depends on the contract, but my buddy doesn't charge for treatment (oxygen, ice packs, bandages...) That's covered by his fee to the track. And as you said, riders can refuse the trip to the hospital.

Also my local track is fairly cheap on practice days ($15 and they groom a couple times a day and water as needed) but they don't have an ambulance or flaggers except on race days. So if you hurt yourself, you rely on other riders to help you, and wait for the ambulance to show up if you are really hurt. I think most riders are aware and ride pretty conservatively.
TerryK
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12/19/2011 10:19am
Ambulance up here was 1750.00 per day and a government funded ambulance is required for race days. ST Johns or volunteer is fine on practice days but neither can transport off site. Imo, you'd have to be insane to do the following as a track owner/promoter:

-have an unapproved ambulance crew at any track day/race
-have less than a full contingent of good flaggers at any time
-not have your senior referee overseeing the entire day
-run "open" practice days with peewees, minis and big bigs on track at the same time
-not have the full insurance coverage at all times
-allow ATVs on the track with any sized bike.


5 flaggers P? This guy seriously does this? He must have the best lawyers and the best insurance because he's hanging his own ass out to dry if he gets sued when someone gets killed because he didn't do everything in his power to make his track safe.
TerryK
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12/19/2011 10:21am
mjskier wrote:
It probably depends on the contract, but my buddy doesn't charge for treatment (oxygen, ice packs, bandages...) That's covered by his fee to the track. And...
It probably depends on the contract, but my buddy doesn't charge for treatment (oxygen, ice packs, bandages...) That's covered by his fee to the track. And as you said, riders can refuse the trip to the hospital.

Also my local track is fairly cheap on practice days ($15 and they groom a couple times a day and water as needed) but they don't have an ambulance or flaggers except on race days. So if you hurt yourself, you rely on other riders to help you, and wait for the ambulance to show up if you are really hurt. I think most riders are aware and ride pretty conservatively.
No flaggers and no medical crew on site? Insanity by both the riders and the track owner.
bangmyhead
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Comin' Straight Outta Compton, CA, USA
12/19/2011 10:23am
going to tracks that are understaffed is not fun at all, there are a couple socal tracks that are scary due to the fact if you go down there are no flaggers around
WhKnuckle
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12/19/2011 10:35am
We have a membership at a place that is primarily an off road/trail facility, about 1500 acres, with a simple and non-maintained moto track, camping facilities, a permanent bathrooom/shower, and that's about it. Annual membership is $780 per family - I would guess they have maybe 150 or so family memberships. They don't have much in the way of expenses because once you're a member you ride for free, they don't usually hold races at all, the property is WAY in the back of a National Forest area, I doubt they pay much for insurance because members agree to a blanket liability waiver when they sign up, and one family owns and operates the facility. If someone was looking to make a living from a track, this might be a good way to do it.
MBR
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FI
12/19/2011 10:43am
You US guys wouldn't want to ride in Europe (maybe UK is different), since most of the tracks are groomed like once or twice in a week and no flaggers on practice days. Also the entrance fee can be something like 25 USD. And in Finland the tracks are open only from April to October before weather goes bad, so no wonder Finland is not dominating the world of motocross. Every time I have chance to ride in Socal it's like heaven, tracks are in really good condition and designed so that they are good even for slow rider like myself.
mjskier
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12/19/2011 11:12am
TerryK wrote:
No flaggers and no medical crew on site? Insanity by both the riders and the track owner.
Like I said, most of the riders ride within their comfort level.
When you think about it, it is still a lot less dangerous than riding off-road where you are in the middle of nowhere with no easy access. I've ridden with people who ride the trail like a 10 minute moto. WFO all the time, with no idea what's around the next bend.
That to me is insanity.
Our track is right off the highway, within 10 minutes from the local fire department. Shit does happen sometimes, and that 10 minutes can too long for some cases. But that's pretty rare. I think most people who go there are glad they have a fairly cheap facility available all year long.
bangmyhead
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12/19/2011 11:28am
TerryK wrote:
No flaggers and no medical crew on site? Insanity by both the riders and the track owner.
mjskier wrote:
Like I said, most of the riders ride within their comfort level. When you think about it, it is still a lot less dangerous than riding...
Like I said, most of the riders ride within their comfort level.
When you think about it, it is still a lot less dangerous than riding off-road where you are in the middle of nowhere with no easy access. I've ridden with people who ride the trail like a 10 minute moto. WFO all the time, with no idea what's around the next bend.
That to me is insanity.
Our track is right off the highway, within 10 minutes from the local fire department. Shit does happen sometimes, and that 10 minutes can too long for some cases. But that's pretty rare. I think most people who go there are glad they have a fairly cheap facility available all year long.
Yes WFO without knowing what your going to come up across is retarded.
jndmx
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12/19/2011 11:33am
mxtech1 wrote:
Yes the transport cost is paid by the rider. At our track, the injured rider can always refuse ambulance treatment and services if they are hurt...
Yes the transport cost is paid by the rider. At our track, the injured rider can always refuse ambulance treatment and services if they are hurt in such a way that it is not an emergency or life-threataning. In alot of cases, the injured riders will have a buddy drive them to our hospital which is only about 10 minutes away
Yep....or their parents.

My son took that ride in 08 when he broke his back, cost around $600.
Of course that was the least of my worries at the time.
Hando
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USA
12/19/2011 11:35am
I asked this in the older thread

Would having a drag strip onsite make it feasible to run an MX track on the side?

I dont know anything about drag-racing but it looks alot cheaper to maintain a drag strip compared to a MX track.

VitalMX drag racers...please chime in.
Highsider
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Way Toasty, IA, USA
12/19/2011 11:48am Edited Date/Time 12/19/2011 11:49am
Ask Jonathan Beasley.
I think the drag strip was there before the mx track.

www.buddscreek.com
jndmx
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12/19/2011 12:21pm Edited Date/Time 12/19/2011 12:21pm
Highsider wrote:
Ask Jonathan Beasley.
I think the drag strip was there before the mx track.

www.buddscreek.com
Yep
New England Dragway just opened an MX track onsite and then there is Raceway Park in Jersey.
Both of those strips were in place way before the MX track too.

Not sure if it would be easy to get anything that loud approved nowadays though.
12/19/2011 12:25pm
TerryK wrote:
lol, where do I start? Bee there, done that! Insurance is ridiculous, as are ambulance fees. If you have an all volunteer staff that will help...
lol, where do I start? Bee there, done that!

Insurance is ridiculous, as are ambulance fees. If you have an all volunteer staff that will help, but chances are that wont happen, especially when people know you are making bank. You need at least 20 people to run a tack on a practice day and more than double that on a race day. Do the math. Then there's fuel for equipment, not to mention maintaining said equipment, buying things like a starting gate, lumber and such for buildings, PA system, tools, banners, signage, track markers, fencing, water pumps, hose, office supplies, furniture, advertising, etc etc etc. Plus there's taxes and county fees etc. And it's not just on days you have practice or races that you spend money. You have to maintain and repair the track and building between events and unless you are committed full time, you are going to have to hire people and that is not cheap and neither is the fuel for the equipment they'll be running.

Trust me, I could go on.

Many many people ask the same question you do because it looks so easy, but the trick is to see the hidden and not so hidden costs. It's a tough go but if you want to try it make sure you OVERESTIMATE your costs by at least 40% so you have a buffer. And be prepared to have NO life other than the track. It's a commitment probably beyond anything you've ever done. You'll work your ass off and people will still bitch at you every single day. Ever try pleasing 200 people at the same time?
U sure as shit have never been to Race town 395 have 6 crew members and if a rider goes down other riders go and alert the gate man for a wagon to head out. Place uses country well water and shit is cheap!

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