How to make your 2010-12 Yamaha YZ450 turn like its on velcro.

12/17/2011 6:43pm
If you think it would suck, you're probably imagining normal knobbies on Velcro. Instead imagine the track's surface is entirely little loops, and your tires are...
If you think it would suck, you're probably imagining normal knobbies on Velcro. Instead imagine the track's surface is entirely little loops, and your tires are covered with thousands of little hooks. Is it looking any better?

(And it has to be real Velcro, too. Not that cheap shit.)
"how about blitzing the whoops?"

"Wouldn't that just make you stop though?"


Do you two have degrees in physics by any chance? Look, guys, I know it sounds silly. I know it sounds a little far-fetched. All I know is it works, and you shouldn't say anything until you've tried it.

Again, not mocking the OP. Grinning
12/17/2011 6:46pm
Just think of the horrible sound of the start on a velcro track.
Tiki
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Fantasy
12/17/2011 7:08pm
If you ever look at a factory bike, its things like this that separate the bikes from everyone else. Changing the motor in the cradle makes huge differences.

Neat tip BAD10
mxr102
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12/17/2011 7:14pm
Put A rIDE eNGINEERING lINKAGE SYSTEM ON IT. Makes a huge difference and the thing will be stable.

The Shop

12/17/2011 8:49pm Edited Date/Time 12/17/2011 8:51pm
this is proof that the reverse engine deal by yamaha is flawed. it puts the weight too far back.
FHKRacingZ
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12/17/2011 9:22pm Edited Date/Time 12/17/2011 9:22pm
If I had a dollar for everytime I had an engineer try to explain his reasoning behind things at work I would be a millionare. No offence to the engineers here but my dealings with most of them are they are retarded and dont know simplicity and efficientcy is sometimes better than their egos. Good to hear there is a good simple product that according to you works great! good thread!
SammyD
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12/17/2011 9:53pm
7 lbs guys... Not 70. If that.
Faceaz
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12/17/2011 9:59pm
I believe the claim is just improperly worded. My bet, the engine weighs approx. 70lbs & they are moving it 2mm foward. That's not to say they are adding 70lbs to the front, just slightly shifting an existing 70lbs.

I could make quite a bit of change. Windham used a different headstay that apparently made a huge difference in handling & Honda ended up adopting it to their production model. It didn't even change any mounting points.

I'm still curious what this does to the other mounts though. You can't move an engine 2mm & still have all the mounts line up correctly.
kx1984
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12/17/2011 10:07pm
BAD10 wrote:
Zookie, so are you saying you are an engineer experienced in motorcycle chassis design? Sounds like you have paralysis by analysis. I have had a few...
Zookie, so are you saying you are an engineer experienced in motorcycle chassis design? Sounds like you have paralysis by analysis. I have had a few conversations in the past, with Ross Maeda from Enzo, about some of his work with the OEM engineers. I could listen to him forever. He has got endless, crazy stories how changing the smallest part changes the handling of a bike. I know one year they were playing with front motor mount thickness to change the flex characteristics of the frame to improve turning. I think this was with Grant Langston, but I'm not sure. However, I am a nobody, and definitely not an engineer, so you must be right that it does not work. I am gonna call for a full refund Monday. Whistling
zookie wrote:
Actually yes, I do have experience in chassis tuning on motorcycles. This is not paralysis by analysis. This is someone with experience who wants data to...
Actually yes, I do have experience in chassis tuning on motorcycles.

This is not paralysis by analysis.

This is someone with experience who wants data to support the claims that this affects how the motorcycle handles. At the very least this product should have test results from blind testing that show beyond a reasonable doubt from rider feedback that on bikes with the part, they thought the bike handled in a more predicable manner. A nice bonus would be data from engineering tools.

Again on the motor thing, the placebo effect is a biatch. My experience in the american moto world is that folks spend money on a part, know what the part is advertised to do, and their mind convinces them of this fact once they use it.

Did Ross take any data past rider feedback? Did these riders know something was changed on the bike? Was there any instrumentation used to quantify the effects of the change in parts to learn how it has affected the chassis?

If you are happy with the part for your YZF, good for you I am happy!
Zookie,

One day you will graduate! That day will be when you realize that the more you know , the more you know you don't know.
Sounds like you have a long way to go though.

I am sure you laugh in ultimate coolness whenever you hear someone mention " seat of the pants".

Try not to be such a "typical" engeneer.
PeterPuffer
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12/17/2011 10:23pm
Honestly I think the claim is being slightly misunderstood. When they say 70lbs shifted 2mm toward the front wheel it doesn't mean it's putting an extra 70lbs on the front wheel by any means. 70lbs is a ballpark for the engine and it's only moving 2mm forward. I am betting you would only see a few pounds shifted to the front wheel at most. You could check it concretely with two scales though. One under the front wheel one under the back wheel without the mod. Install the part and re-weigh the bike again. This will show you the real change in weight bias due to the mod. And like many have stated earlier a small change and be felt as a big difference in bike handling. Most sensitive riders can notice how a bikes handling changes for instance when the fuel tank begins to get low. Another important factor is the shift of the engines inertia from all the rotating components which is a huge factor in 4-stroke engines much more so then in a typical 2-stroke. The inertia shift could very well be more of what riders are feeling as the improvement rather than the simple shift of the static weight bias.
GHR
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12/17/2011 10:41pm
back when i owned the worst turning bike known to man (2007 YZF450) I sat in a think tank room with YZ peeps including some corp guys from japan to discuss the bike etc mostly to get a feel for what they were then preparing to launch (this current design changes of the YZF). Anyway we, at that round table discussed a ton about Intertia and that "shifting of weight" thing. Im no engineer and no pro either but I can say a few things about "shifting weight" even stupid stuff like that foam in the tank to keep gas from sloshing thing helped me a ton and a few actual LBS of weight shifted forward is exponential when breaking. Im not sure 70 lbs but enough to feel it just like the Gas sloshing stuff. Anyway, Langston was a big reason the bike changed from 2007 he did not like that bike at all. He is even quoted as saying the stock 2010 was better than the bike he won the 450 outdoor title on. Mostly due to how terrible the 2007 turned....
jeffro503
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12/18/2011 1:34am Edited Date/Time 12/18/2011 1:37am
I don't quite believe the 70lb claim they are saying.....but if it helps plant that front end down.....then that's great news. That was one of my complaints on my 2010.....it kept feeling like it wanted to crawl out of every rut I put that front wheel in.

Think about it this way 70lbs on a 240lb bike is about what 28% of the total weight? By moving the motor forward 2mm........they claim they are moving 28% of the weight forward? That makes no sense. A few pounds maybe? Physics wouldn't allow this as moving the motor only 2mm is extremely small. 10-15mm maybe would do that...or more?

Honestly.....I "think" they meant 7lbs. That would make a lot more sense. And moving that much weight from the center or rear....to the front , I think would probably help tremendously.

I think someone screwed the math up from their marketing group ( or wording ).......BUT....if it works , it works! Good luck Bad10......hope that little mod works as well as you say.
KMC440
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12/18/2011 5:04am
.... in order to maintain air-speed velocity ......

https://youtu.be/H4_9kDO3q0w

Continue your useless argument.....
crf250pilot
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12/18/2011 6:21am Edited Date/Time 12/18/2011 6:24am
zookie wrote:
I would really suggest that anyone interested in buying snake oil products learn a thing or two about physics and engineering before believing this crap
BAD10 wrote:
Hey Zookie Skeptic, have you tried the Mod? Your comment is pure B.S.. Given your logic, how is it that a 2 Millimeter change in offset...
Hey Zookie Skeptic, have you tried the Mod? Your comment is pure B.S.. Given your logic, how is it that a 2 Millimeter change in offset on clamps can change handling? Small changes in the chassis can make huge changes in handling. Merely changing tubing wall thickness will affect handling. 2 millimeters of anything chassis related is big. The mod works, and several people I know that have done this to their YZ agree. And I am sure anybody on this board that may try it will say the same. Its an inexpensive, real world mod that works.
Bad10 is right. Yamaha designed totally different engine mounts from the 06 to 07 yz250f's just to tilt the engine foward a couple mm.
zookie
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12/18/2011 8:39am
FHKRacingZ wrote:
If I had a dollar for everytime I had an engineer try to explain his reasoning behind things at work I would be a millionare. No...
If I had a dollar for everytime I had an engineer try to explain his reasoning behind things at work I would be a millionare. No offence to the engineers here but my dealings with most of them are they are retarded and dont know simplicity and efficientcy is sometimes better than their egos. Good to hear there is a good simple product that according to you works great! good thread!
If I had a dollar every time something was sold without actual proof through proper blind testing and/or data I would be a billionaire.

I am a huge fan of simplicity. I am also a huge fan of truth.

In this case, my experience, education, and career background lead me to believe this is a case of placebo effect.

I welcome any of you to prove me wrong, do a true blind test with this or any product and post your methods and results. Back it up with data from the motorcycle if you can.
zookie
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12/18/2011 8:49am
kx1984 wrote:
Zookie, One day you will graduate! That day will be when you realize that the more you know , the more you know you don't know...
Zookie,

One day you will graduate! That day will be when you realize that the more you know , the more you know you don't know.
Sounds like you have a long way to go though.

I am sure you laugh in ultimate coolness whenever you hear someone mention " seat of the pants".

Try not to be such a "typical" engeneer.
You are right! One day I will graduate, and that day was a while back.

Seat of the pants doesn't lie when the test method is correct. You need many riders, many bikes, and completely blind tests of bikes with/without this product.

I totally endorse empirical test data (rider feedback/laptimes/etc), in fact, I prefer them over results purely built on engineering data. Problem with empirical data in this case is that, as I have said in prior posts, the human mind is a very powerful thing. The placebo effect is well documented in medical tests. You need to have a significant number of controlled tests on this product where the rider is put on a bike with no change, told there is a change, and the rider is put on the bike with the change, and told nothing was changed. Lastly, put them on a bike with the part on it and tell them it has the part on it. If the part truly works as designed, then the results will show it in this case. You need to repeat the tests multiple times on multiple days with multiple riders. Have them ride a control motorcycle first, have them ride the other motorcycles in a different order and have them ride them multiple times. The bikes must be indistinguishable from each other and the rider must not be present when the bikes are "swapped" for them to ride. For some other tests you need to rotate the parts/test cases between the bikes to ensure that the feedback was not due to fundamental differences in the bikes.

BUT, lastly I will add, even if this part does work purely on placebo effect, if it makes you more confident in your motorcycle and allows you to ride harder/faster/longer then it is a success! Much of the speed on a track is due to the rider and if the rider can be made more confident, through actual results or placebo results, then you have a success!
zookie
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12/18/2011 8:49am Edited Date/Time 12/18/2011 8:52am
If you talk to folks who I work with, they will tell you I am much more of an empirical engineer than a data/analysis engineer. I prefer test feedback over test numbers any day, but the tests need to be run in a way that eliminates doubt from the human mind. In my field, false test results can cause death.
blair683
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12/18/2011 10:14am
Can't even give valuable information on this thread. The guy said he tried it first hand and it works great! If you don't believe him then don't do it to your bike and STFU.
mooch
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12/18/2011 10:26am
zookie wrote:
I would really suggest that anyone interested in buying snake oil products learn a thing or two about physics and engineering before believing this crap
know-it -alls...they thrive so well on the interweb.
mxb2
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12/18/2011 10:27am
blair683 wrote:
Can't even give valuable information on this thread. The guy said he tried it first hand and it works great! If you don't believe him then...
Can't even give valuable information on this thread. The guy said he tried it first hand and it works great! If you don't believe him then don't do it to your bike and STFU.
x2
sozo
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12/18/2011 10:47am
KMC440 wrote:
.... in order to maintain air-speed velocity ......

https://youtu.be/H4_9kDO3q0w

Continue your useless argument.....
OMG so funny.... omg! ahahha LOL .... This about sums this thread up ! lol
jeffro503
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12/18/2011 11:32am
blair683 wrote:
Can't even give valuable information on this thread. The guy said he tried it first hand and it works great! If you don't believe him then...
Can't even give valuable information on this thread. The guy said he tried it first hand and it works great! If you don't believe him then don't do it to your bike and STFU.
I believe Bad10 had great results with the new mod for sure! I never questioned that , in fact I'm not questioning what he said at all on the performance of the bike. I was just questioning the wordage of the ad and it's claims of moving 70lbs forward.

I "think" what they meant to say was it takes a 70lb motor and moves it forward 2mm........NOT that it moves a total of 70lbs to the front of the bike.


"I just tried the mod......hit this huge triple......and beat Pastrana's forward flip record......three full revolutions.....and I wasn't even trying!"
MX558
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12/18/2011 12:16pm
Back when I was road racing we would watch two "engineers" set up their bikes suspension. One of the funniest things I've ever seen, and yes they crashed every weekend. lol One ex pro rode one of their bikes , said worst set up bike he ever rode. lol
BAD10
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12/18/2011 12:28pm
Guys, I wasnt stating the claim verbatum off ad copy. I was told a 70lb shift to the front wheel in a phone conversation. I have no idea if this is weight shift on deceleration, acceleration, static, or whatever else. I'm sure whatever was said was dumbed down for laymans terms, but what stuck was the 70lbs. All I know is it works. I am curious to find out the answer, though. Why do my posts always turn in to a shit show? Sheeesshhhhhhhh....Dizzy
Tbteam
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12/18/2011 12:38pm
Guy comes on here because he's excited to tell everyone that might benefit from his experience about a simple fix for the Yamaha. Now everybody wants to jump his shit and telll him that he's wrong, and that he actually doesn't like his bike, and it handles like shit.

Fucking classic.
scooter5002
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12/18/2011 12:44pm
^^^ You DO remember you're on Vital, right? Evil
PRM31
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Fantasy
12/18/2011 12:44pm Edited Date/Time 12/18/2011 12:52pm
They're not saying it transfers 70# total to the front wheel. They are saying it moves 70# (weight of engine) 2mm forward. Semantics. Considering all the other "minor" changes that make a noticeable difference I don't see why this is such a stretch to some. Move your forks 2mm up or down and see if it make a difference, add 2mm to the rear shock lower linkage, move handlebars back or fwd 2mm, etc.
machine
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12/18/2011 12:46pm
blair683 wrote:
Can't even give valuable information on this thread. The guy said he tried it first hand and it works great! If you don't believe him then...
Can't even give valuable information on this thread. The guy said he tried it first hand and it works great! If you don't believe him then don't do it to your bike and STFU.
mxb2 wrote:
x2
X3
MX4EVR
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12/18/2011 1:09pm
mx317 wrote:
70 lbs?
Rooster wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me. I've seen a quarter turn on a four link rear end in a drag car that moved 250 lbs to the front...
It wouldn't surprise me. I've seen a quarter turn on a four link rear end in a drag car that moved 250 lbs to the front end.
Very true

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