It's online MXA 250SX vs. 250SX-F

11/14/2011 11:35am
bents wrote:
Why don't they include the 250sx in with the 450 shootouts? I'd like to know how it stacks up against the big boys.
The magazines are selling to amateurs, sell space for products in the magazines for amateurs, and do shootouts for amateurs. Amateur racing is 250cc vs 250cc, and Open class. Now, if they included the 300xc other 300's in the open class shootout, that would be bitchin.
11/14/2011 11:36am
burn1986 wrote:
Man, it's just a shame that one organization is preventing these bikes from competition, when they are perfectly good race machines, that need to be raced...
Man, it's just a shame that one organization is preventing these bikes from competition, when they are perfectly good race machines, that need to be raced in the pros! I wonder what it would take to get a change in the rules? I know this is just rhetoric, but come on!
ktm125 wrote:
cash in the pockets of the ones who can change the rules
Just like congress, Lobbyism is what runs this industry. "Follow the money."
burn1986
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11/14/2011 11:37am Edited Date/Time 11/14/2011 11:37am
Sherwood wrote:
Why are the same racers and teams winning on 4-strokes that won on 2-strokes? I mean if the 4 strokes easier to ride it should've bridged...
Why are the same racers and teams winning on 4-strokes that won on 2-strokes? I mean if the 4 strokes easier to ride it should've bridged that gap no?
A good rider is a good rider, regardless of bike. With one caveat - he would lose is if you put him against equally good riders on a 250 2-stroke vs. 450F or 125 2-stroke against 250Fs. Ryan Villopoto would lose if you put him on a 250 2-stroke in MX. In SX, I think he would have a good chance, but it would still be super unfair.
TeamGreen
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11/14/2011 11:39am
Sherwood wrote:
Why are the same racers and teams winning on 4-strokes that won on 2-strokes? I mean if the 4 strokes easier to ride it should've bridged...
Why are the same racers and teams winning on 4-strokes that won on 2-strokes? I mean if the 4 strokes easier to ride it should've bridged that gap no?
Maybe $20,000k motors helps keep that gap large and loud?
You can buy the VERY SAME "set-up" that Eleven-10 built to beat the factories into the 1st turn...on more than a few ocassions...

Complete Bike: $15,000 ($18,500 W/ all the Ti).

CRF250R...that can compete with the "Factories".

Anyone care to guess how much yoou can spend on a 250SX if you go all out on the SXS stuff?

The Shop

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11/14/2011 11:43am
Is anyone really dumb enough to believe a 250F is better than a 250? The argument is not for 250 vs 250, it is for 250 vs 450. Way to prove nothing that everyone didn't already know, BROs.
scooter5002
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11/14/2011 11:47am
Here's my .02 worth. First, have the AMA pull it's head out of it's ass. That would be the biggest, and in my mind, the most important first step. Second, do away with the "production" rule. No, no, hear me out. Third, take that homologation rule and stick it up their ass. To fill the cavity created by the cranial removal. They're used to a full feeling down there, so it would be like it never really left. It's a mind over matter thing.
Now open the door to any bike that wants to race the appropriate class. 250 2-strokes in the small bore class and aluminum frame 500s in the big bore class. Would attract more racers to the Nats and lets be serious, the O.E.M.s have nothing to fear. They're still going to win. But a decent privateer on an alum frame 500 going on the same gate as a works CRF450? Lets bring back some exotica to the race scene, and more racers to the field. The average low end racer could field a 500 for the season cheaper than a 450, and be competitive. If the average racer has the BALLS to ride one! Pussys need not apply. This is the mans class, after all.
I realise it's never going to happen, because the Council on AMA is made up of the O.E.M.s, but thats the point. They don't give a shit about the consumer, it's all about them. Too stupid to figure out that they'll be selling bikes no matter what. I bet KTM would vote for it.
Shawn142
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11/14/2011 11:49am
Another problem MX Sports runs into besides the OEMs are team managers. Specifically Mitch Payton who says he would support the rule change only if it was fair, meaning his team could run whatever they wanted. Seeing as that's not going to happen, he and others in his situation (OEM backed Lites teams) will be a further road block to the rule change.
11/14/2011 11:55am
The cool thing about the two stroke movement is that a bunch of riders are going to go out and actually buy the things. After the honeymoon is over a lot ot them will realize that they aren't really more fun to ride week in week out. That will create a fresh supply of two strokes into the used bike market at reasonable prices. Not a bad thing in my opinion...
mark_swart
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11/14/2011 11:57am
mark_swart wrote:
Oh geez... here we go...
peelout wrote:
what exactly is wrong with posting a link that will garner a lot of views? i realize it may start another 4vs2 bash fest, but it...
what exactly is wrong with posting a link that will garner a lot of views?

i realize it may start another 4vs2 bash fest, but it is an interesting shootout no less.
Sorry, I'm a little burnt out on it after reading 10 pages of the 4 versus 2 battle that Matthes ignited a few days ago!! It's good discussion I guess, just a shame only one OEM really gives a crap.
burn1986
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11/14/2011 11:59am Edited Date/Time 11/14/2011 12:00pm
Shawn142 wrote:
Another problem MX Sports runs into besides the OEMs are team managers. Specifically Mitch Payton who says he would support the rule change only if it...
Another problem MX Sports runs into besides the OEMs are team managers. Specifically Mitch Payton who says he would support the rule change only if it was fair, meaning his team could run whatever they wanted. Seeing as that's not going to happen, he and others in his situation (OEM backed Lites teams) will be a further road block to the rule change.
I think the only they (MX Sports) run(s) into is Japan. If Japan wanted to allow 2-strokes then we would have them in SX and MX. Japan has said no rule changes, so it hasn't changed. And probably never will.
peelout
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11/14/2011 12:02pm
mark_swart wrote:
Oh geez... here we go...
peelout wrote:
what exactly is wrong with posting a link that will garner a lot of views? i realize it may start another 4vs2 bash fest, but it...
what exactly is wrong with posting a link that will garner a lot of views?

i realize it may start another 4vs2 bash fest, but it is an interesting shootout no less.
mark_swart wrote:
Sorry, I'm a little burnt out on it after reading 10 pages of the 4 versus 2 battle that Matthes ignited a few days ago!! It's...
Sorry, I'm a little burnt out on it after reading 10 pages of the 4 versus 2 battle that Matthes ignited a few days ago!! It's good discussion I guess, just a shame only one OEM really gives a crap.
i fully agree. it gets old, but there is a reason it is talked about over and over.

clearly KTM gives a shit about the consumer, and Choice is all we really want.

that said, i could give two shits what the AMA decides about equal displacement. they have proved time and time again that their view of the sport is not geared towards the local weekend warriors, but rather to the MFR's that call the shots. i'll buy a new 250 and ride it until it's a worn out turd, and since KTM will most likely still be providing new bikes, i will buy another and another.
11/14/2011 12:06pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2011 12:26pm
Sherwood wrote:
Why are the same racers and teams winning on 4-strokes that won on 2-strokes? I mean if the 4 strokes easier to ride it should've bridged...
Why are the same racers and teams winning on 4-strokes that won on 2-strokes? I mean if the 4 strokes easier to ride it should've bridged that gap no?
Maybe $20,000k motors helps keep that gap large and loud?
TeamGreen wrote:
You can buy the VERY SAME "set-up" that Eleven-10 built to beat the factories into the 1st turn...on more than a few ocassions... Complete Bike: $15,000...
You can buy the VERY SAME "set-up" that Eleven-10 built to beat the factories into the 1st turn...on more than a few ocassions...

Complete Bike: $15,000 ($18,500 W/ all the Ti).

CRF250R...that can compete with the "Factories".

Anyone care to guess how much yoou can spend on a 250SX if you go all out on the SXS stuff?
Ummm, yeah. B kit suspension is the cheap stuff, but even with that, you don't get that number. List the going prices for all mods I guess. We'll go from there.... No motor competes with Pro Circuit motors.
By the way, a stock 250SX would run with the factories to the first corner. That is our point.
CR250Rider
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11/14/2011 12:13pm
it all boils down to talent.

a good rider can win on a turd.
mxb2
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11/14/2011 12:16pm
Maybe $20,000k motors helps keep that gap large and loud?
TeamGreen wrote:
You can buy the VERY SAME "set-up" that Eleven-10 built to beat the factories into the 1st turn...on more than a few ocassions... Complete Bike: $15,000...
You can buy the VERY SAME "set-up" that Eleven-10 built to beat the factories into the 1st turn...on more than a few ocassions...

Complete Bike: $15,000 ($18,500 W/ all the Ti).

CRF250R...that can compete with the "Factories".

Anyone care to guess how much yoou can spend on a 250SX if you go all out on the SXS stuff?
Ummm, yeah. B kit suspension is the cheap stuff, but even with that, you don't get that number. List the going prices for all mods I...
Ummm, yeah. B kit suspension is the cheap stuff, but even with that, you don't get that number. List the going prices for all mods I guess. We'll go from there.... No motor competes with Pro Circuit motors.
By the way, a stock 250SX would run with the factories to the first corner. That is our point.
I think Durham was using a A kit , so the price is steeper.
burn1986
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11/14/2011 12:29pm
Yawn.
Deetsmx
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11/14/2011 2:23pm
This weekend I was watching the beginner support class at an OTHG race. I saw this kid wearing mixed matched gear with and older bike who looked like he was doing one of his first races sit in the middle of the start straight away try to kick his locked up crf250. Then I saw his dad walk over there with a look of disappointment and frustration for having let his kid down. I have a feeling that will be the last race that kid will do for a while, if ever. THAT is what's wrong with this sport, no more, no less.
Outsider
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11/14/2011 2:29pm
I had a homemade veggie wrap this morning, made with tofu.... sounds kinda ghey I know, but, it was actually pretty good.
MXEditor
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11/14/2011 2:32pm
Ask the fans and the response is overwhelming - they want the two-strokes back in some way.

Go to the tracks where everyone doesn't have a $100K motorhome and you see a lot of two-strokes, it's the working mans bike these days.

Brap.
TeamGreen
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11/14/2011 2:34pm
Deetsmx wrote:
This weekend I was watching the beginner support class at an OTHG race. I saw this kid wearing mixed matched gear with and older bike who...
This weekend I was watching the beginner support class at an OTHG race. I saw this kid wearing mixed matched gear with and older bike who looked like he was doing one of his first races sit in the middle of the start straight away try to kick his locked up crf250. Then I saw his dad walk over there with a look of disappointment and frustration for having let his kid down. I have a feeling that will be the last race that kid will do for a while, if ever. THAT is what's wrong with this sport, no more, no less.
Yes.

It's the motorcycle.

That's the problem.

Honda makes a POS?

Fine.

jus' one thing, tho...?

I remember EXPLODING plenty of smokers...so...

I guess they all suck?

Please, continue...
11/14/2011 2:37pm
Deetsmx wrote:
This weekend I was watching the beginner support class at an OTHG race. I saw this kid wearing mixed matched gear with and older bike who...
This weekend I was watching the beginner support class at an OTHG race. I saw this kid wearing mixed matched gear with and older bike who looked like he was doing one of his first races sit in the middle of the start straight away try to kick his locked up crf250. Then I saw his dad walk over there with a look of disappointment and frustration for having let his kid down. I have a feeling that will be the last race that kid will do for a while, if ever. THAT is what's wrong with this sport, no more, no less.
TeamGreen wrote:
Yes. It's the motorcycle. That's the problem. Honda makes a POS? Fine. jus' one thing, tho...? I remember EXPLODING plenty of smokers...so... I guess they all...
Yes.

It's the motorcycle.

That's the problem.

Honda makes a POS?

Fine.

jus' one thing, tho...?

I remember EXPLODING plenty of smokers...so...

I guess they all suck?

Please, continue...
Difference is, the 2 strokes didn't finish the future that kid has riding. The 4 stroke with it's $2000+ rebuild just ended his future of riding. True story...
peelout
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11/14/2011 3:24pm
Outsider wrote:
I had a homemade veggie wrap this morning, made with tofu.... sounds kinda ghey I know, but, it was actually pretty good.
no homo, bro
Deetsmx
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11/14/2011 4:19pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Yes. It's the motorcycle. That's the problem. Honda makes a POS? Fine. jus' one thing, tho...? I remember EXPLODING plenty of smokers...so... I guess they all...
Yes.

It's the motorcycle.

That's the problem.

Honda makes a POS?

Fine.

jus' one thing, tho...?

I remember EXPLODING plenty of smokers...so...

I guess they all suck?

Please, continue...
I agree

that they blow up as well.

Big difference

though

between slapping a $100 top end

or a $2000 dollar top end

in the bike

Never said Honda's are POS

kid prolly can't afford to ride again

is what i was getting at

jus' sayin

Wink
PRM31
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Fantasy
11/14/2011 4:30pm
Just imagine how cool it will be when the 4-strokes get the high tech variable valve timing, more advanced computer controls, traction control, maybe even supercharging. They have to do something to keep upping the ante vs. everybody else right? Of course there will only be a handful of people at the races because it's so expensive and you'll need some masters certification to work on it. Maybe that wouldn't be so cool... I think the sport would be much bigger, and certainly more enjoyable, if new bikes were about 4 grand and easy to work on. Even if they weren't as fast or high tech. I just don't see the high tech making a day of riding with your buds any better really.
OW38B
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11/14/2011 11:06pm
Here's my .02 worth. First, have the AMA pull it's head out of it's ass. That would be the biggest, and in my mind, the most...
Here's my .02 worth. First, have the AMA pull it's head out of it's ass. That would be the biggest, and in my mind, the most important first step. Second, do away with the "production" rule. No, no, hear me out. Third, take that homologation rule and stick it up their ass. To fill the cavity created by the cranial removal. They're used to a full feeling down there, so it would be like it never really left. It's a mind over matter thing.
Now open the door to any bike that wants to race the appropriate class. 250 2-strokes in the small bore class and aluminum frame 500s in the big bore class. Would attract more racers to the Nats and lets be serious, the O.E.M.s have nothing to fear. They're still going to win. But a decent privateer on an alum frame 500 going on the same gate as a works CRF450? Lets bring back some exotica to the race scene, and more racers to the field. The average low end racer could field a 500 for the season cheaper than a 450, and be competitive. If the average racer has the BALLS to ride one! Pussys need not apply. This is the mans class, after all.
I realise it's never going to happen, because the Council on AMA is made up of the O.E.M.s, but thats the point. They don't give a shit about the consumer, it's all about them. Too stupid to figure out that they'll be selling bikes no matter what. I bet KTM would vote for it.
Scooter - not pullin' any punches are ya.

Right on my Brother.
Dropbear
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11/15/2011 1:34am
So if you detuned the 2 stroke to put out 35 bhp you would probably feel like you were hauling arse as you would have the throttle to the stops most of the time. Some guys would probably go faster than if they had 45 + anyway, 2 stroke or not.

250 four strokes - why ride one if you had the choice in the amateur class!! Buying a 4 stroke and spending $$$ to increase power dont make no sense to me.
WhKnuckle
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11/15/2011 3:13am
Funny that the ultimate shootout between the four stroke and the two stroke ended with the foundational fact of motocross - riders go as fast as their skill and daring will take them, no matter what they ride.
11/15/2011 7:11am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Funny that the ultimate shootout between the four stroke and the two stroke ended with the foundational fact of motocross - riders go as fast as...
Funny that the ultimate shootout between the four stroke and the two stroke ended with the foundational fact of motocross - riders go as fast as their skill and daring will take them, no matter what they ride.
Not funny at all. Because in years past, when the shootouts were the handicap crap, the 450F tore up the 250 2 stroke. Finally when shootouts are becoming fair, they are actually just that. Fair!
GrapeApe
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11/15/2011 7:21am
Deetsmx wrote:
This weekend I was watching the beginner support class at an OTHG race. I saw this kid wearing mixed matched gear with and older bike who...
This weekend I was watching the beginner support class at an OTHG race. I saw this kid wearing mixed matched gear with and older bike who looked like he was doing one of his first races sit in the middle of the start straight away try to kick his locked up crf250. Then I saw his dad walk over there with a look of disappointment and frustration for having let his kid down. I have a feeling that will be the last race that kid will do for a while, if ever. THAT is what's wrong with this sport, no more, no less.
I forgot to turn on my fuel once, too. I never forgot again, that was embarrassing.
Laith488
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11/15/2011 7:59am
burn1986 wrote:
Once again MXA presents a valid argument for equal displacements in the 250 Lites class in Pro MX and SX - almost. Since the 250SX keeps...
Once again MXA presents a valid argument for equal displacements in the 250 Lites class in Pro MX and SX - almost. Since the 250SX keeps getting faster, they will soon make the 250SX too fast to fit into the class. However, the Pro MX and SX 250Fs make at least another 10 horsepower more than stock, further equalizing the argument.
I have read a lot over the past few weeks and have decided this will be my first post.

I have read the comment that factory 4strokes would produce more horsepower, thus making them more equal. I would agree with that, but you are assuming that the 2stroke would remain stock. I am sure a factory effort or even a privateer would still beef the thing up a little, thus keeping the horsepower unequal.

I am still thinking about switching back to a 2 stroke on my next bike, but fear I have become to lazy on the bike to meet the demands of the 2 stroke.
11/15/2011 8:09am Edited Date/Time 11/15/2011 8:13am
Laith488 wrote:
I have read a lot over the past few weeks and have decided this will be my first post. I have read the comment that factory...
I have read a lot over the past few weeks and have decided this will be my first post.

I have read the comment that factory 4strokes would produce more horsepower, thus making them more equal. I would agree with that, but you are assuming that the 2stroke would remain stock. I am sure a factory effort or even a privateer would still beef the thing up a little, thus keeping the horsepower unequal.

I am still thinking about switching back to a 2 stroke on my next bike, but fear I have become to lazy on the bike to meet the demands of the 2 stroke.
You are correct, although incorrect. Most 450F's in the pro ranks are somewhat detuned. Not really, but in the realm of moving power around, not necessarily gaining power. We as MX'ers can only use so much hp, not infinite amounts. Pro's can use more, but still not infinite. Just getting more hp on a 250 2 stroke, may make it more unrideable, rather than making it better. So let's say you increase power, but make it even more prone to do the bad things, like this article says. Then you may win on the start, but get hammered all over the rest of the track. A 250F would still be the smoother of the two, and the gap in hp will be much closer than the article had in stock bikes. Thus, still a very close race.

As a side note, you can make your 250 2 stroke run almost identical to the 250F. Detuning it, like I mentioned, and put on a heavy flywheel weight. Problem is, everyone always says how good the 250F is smooth wise, but NONE send their 250 2 stroke motor in to PC and says, "make it slow like a 250F." The ONLY people who know what I speak of, are the offroad guys. They tune their bikes much different than the MX guys.

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