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But the science behind what fuels a human best for long term health is not a problem. In that case, meat & dairy are a solution.
(FWIW, both my wife & a few players I coach attempted keto without dairy. They failed pretty bad. They just couldn’t get enough fat in their diet.)
And by “lower rates of _____ disease” who are you comparing veganism too? The standard American diet? Just about ANYTHING compared to standard American eating would result in a win.
Comparing veganism to keto tho, now that is where veganism fails. Similar to paleo, it’s too focused on protein (regardless of the source), with excess protein being converted to glucose. It’s a high sugar, low fat, lifestyle. I’ve yet to meet a vegan that even understood that basic concept. I ask them where they get their energy from and they always start to list “protein from beans” and “vitamins from vegetables”. Vitamins are not a energy source. They are a micronutrient. And protein is only a energy source if ingested in excess, and in that case it is converted to GLUCOSE.
I ask where’s the fat coming from? And since vegans still subscribe to the debunked theory that fat is bad, they dont even know how to answer the question.
The worst part of the keto vs vegans issue, is that I see eye 2 eye with them on factory farming, antibiotics, environmental concerns/global warming, etc. But it’s the pesky morals bullshit that gets in the way. Because if the ultimate answer is that red meat is good for our health, but we have too many people on the planet to feed them all healthily & with sustainable farming practices... well, that’s just too inconvenient for most to handle.
2, "Moral Compass". Millions of plant based diet individuals could give a rats ass if your neighbor cut up your dog for their stir fry tonight. The word vegan has become synonymous with raw, fruit, hippie tree huggers. Sorry many vegans could give a rats ass about the planet and animals. We care only about our health and the science that backs up a high plant based diet.
3. I keep saying keto works. What is your problem with other pathways working also?
4. Zero reason for all the hate between the different healthy nutritional methods. They all work if you eat whole food.
I could care less if anyone wants to change their eating habits. Hell the obese president of this country is shown on tv eating 2 big macs, 2 fillet of fish, supersize fry and a 64oz soda. 3,000 empty zero nutritional calories in a single meal more less an entire day.
Brother the fight is not here. The fight is getting people to want to put mcdonals, burger king, pizza hut, and every aisle at the grocery store other than the produce and meat dept out of business by never buying it again.
And I'm very sorry to hear Lewis Hamilton is going to live a short life because he is vegan. Thanks for the heads up.
So blame the cows for greenhouse gases all they want, but when crops wont grow because the soil is too poluted from synthetic fertilizers and GMO crops have killed off all the bees, we’re facing the same issue at the end of the day. We’re fucked.
This debate has parallels the racial issues in our country at the moment. The corps & government fucks over everyone (albeitvto varying degrees). White peoples issues with “the man” are damn near identical as those of minorities at the root. But we’re all too busy fighting with each other to join forces for change that would benefit us all. That Sucks.
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I’ve explained over & over basic macro nutrition in this thread. Your only response has been to claim “everything works” in absense of processed foods. You’re completely dismissive of the fact that the SAME thing that makes McDonalds so damn unhealthy (high carb) is why veganism doesnt work (it’s high sugar also!). Proccessed & preservatives laden junk doesnt do McDonalds any favors, but it’s not the biggest problem in the standard American diet. It’s the macro ratios, regardless of the source.
Are you actually trying to argue that high carb/sugar is healthy? And if so, please explain how that works.
You can “survive” on carbs. It doesnt mean it is “working”.
You can feed your dog grain filled shitty dog food and they’ll survive. I wonder if there are dog owners out there actually claiming their dog is different and is thriving despite a raw meat based diet being what’s best for ALL dogs.
Sure, you can feed a cow corn based feed. They’ll survive. They’ll also be malnourished & require antibiotics to “survive”. Or you can feed them what they’re built for, grazing in a field eating grass. They end up healthier & their meat is nutritionally sound.
Every other species has a diet they are best suited for. Humans seem to think that we’re so different, that we actually differ from person to person. That’s asinine.
Somehow you have the impression that vegan is a high carb diet. You are so wrong. Veggies, beans, legumes, avocados, nuts, etc provide all the protein and healthy fats the body can absorb. Many have to limit the amount of protein and fat they get on a plant based diet. You seem to think vegans only eat fruit. Actually only the youtube vegans do that lol.
The macros are no different, in fact many do plant based Keto. Super high fat, low protein zero carb - all plant based.
Sorry for those reading all this back and forth banter. My opinion is nutrition is super easy. Eat only unprocessed whole foods and you will always be full and healthy. And drop your health insurance since you will no longer need it.
For example: if I dropped a wrench and said that instead to falling to the floor, it rose to the ceiling, I would be laughed out of the room. That's because everyone has a rudimentary understanding of the law of universal gravitation (aka the Law of Gravity). Claiming to gain weight while in a state of caloric deficit, especially over an extended period, is identical to the wrench scenario, except that it violates the lesser-known First Law of Thermodynamics. And it's labeled a "law" for a reason.
Many dietary plans are littered with testimonies and anecdotes ("I've seen" or "all those other people", etc.). And while some diets have the support of scientific evidence, it does not automatically cancel scientific research supporting other approaches to a healthy lifestyle. Let's face it, silver-back gorillas are by & large herbivores, and they have pretty bad-ass physiques.
Jabroni's sweeping proclamations, coupled with his claim to generate "something out of nothing" (i.e. gaining weight/energy while living in a state of caloric/energy deficit) undermines his position a bit. Keto, like the multitude of diets preceding it, will have it's share of staunch supporters. The "I'm Right/You're Wrong" approach results in a circular argument that ends up exactly where it started. A gentle tapping of the brakes would generate better returns.
Going "high fat" or "plant based keto" is a relatively new shift that some vegans have made in response to the evidence that the keto macro ratios are the better way to go. And it doesnt "work". You cant get enough fats nor can you get complete proteins. Trying to get your fats from nuts is incredibly inefficient and you've already advocated cutting out all oils so I dont see where you're going to get your fats from. And why make it so difficult when animal fat is so efficient?
The typical vegan protein sources like soy, legumes, quinoa, rice, grains, beans are all high in carbs.
Can plant based keto be done? MAYBE in theory. But it's completely unrealistic and way more difficult than necessary.
Explain how your liver might function differently than mine.
Every child ever born was born in their natural metabolic state of ketosis throughout breastfeeding. Unless, you're going to argue that there are babies that arent born in ketosis because they are "different"?
The only differences I can see are in our genetic makeup with regards to the the thresholds of abuse we can each take seems to vary quite a bit. But it's not because we're "different" in that our bodies require different fuel sources. There arent people who are designed to run on carbs and not fat. And if there are, please provide "proof".
I find it funny that you'd imply that getting your macros in check will kill someone, and then immediately proclaim it as proof that you're right. What PROOF did you actually provide?
Since then has been pretty essy overall honestly. Worst thing ive had in these 2 weeks was 2 boneless wings that were leftover from the gf in the fridge. Other than that has been zero monsters, zero soda, essentially zero sugar and have stuck to the macro goals.
I used to have 1 or 2 monster java coffees a day, i love the taste of them, and typically a coke or 2 a day. That right there is over 100g of sugar alone and thats not getting into any sweets or whatever crap id end up having that day too. Probably 1-200g of sugar a day was easy estimate before. Now its down to like 5-15g a day.
You did well basically avoiding keto flu. It can be done. I did it using fasting to violently kick me into ketosis. Tho I dont recommend that for most.
Can you tell us how you feel at this point? Mentally? Physically?
Id have to stop for food first thing, then before getting to the track, then on the way home. Easily $40 and 2-4k worth of calories for the entire day.
Now its usually bacon and eggs, a shake, and a couple small things and thats the whole day and thats 2-2400 calories. I'm full and i never hit the "wall" like i would before.
If i didnt eat a good amount before the gym or riding id hit a wall and feel like hell and basically have to stop to eat. Ive gone riding once and i didnt feel that way at all and i had much less to eat for hrs leading up to riding then i would need before.
Its interesting to me the changes your body makes. No longer does it need a constant fresh supply of fuel [sugar] as it has plenty of long last reserves ready to go and it knows that now. I hope what im saying makes sense to read, its tough typing out coherent thoughts from a phone!
I didn't notice a drop off in performance at the track either as i was expecting to. But im not exactly a finely tuned athlete here either.
Its really pretty wild the changes. I havent noticed any real changes in my appearance yet, but for 2 weeks in and to be about 10lbs down is an encouraging thing too.
I think once im 4-6 weeks in ill have some serious progress and more motivation.
I will say i do plan to be strict with it for a while but i do plan to eventually open up to having a slice of pizza here or a cheese steak there etc.
Go from 100% following it to more like 90% eventually but still be smart about it too.
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On the most basic level, I stay honest because just one cheat meal results in overnight repurcussions. My back pain comes back. I’ve also had issues with carb heavy vegetables causing an old staph infection to flare up.
I realize Im an extreme case. But keto fixed so many damn things at once for me.
- lifelong backpain
- lifelong insomnia
- debilitating seasonal allergies
- staph infection that wouldn’t go away no matter what medications I tried
One cheat meal and Im afraid it’ll turn into a cheat week. And all those issues come roaring back. Weight gain is the least of my concerns tbh.
I dont think a single cheat meal would throw the avg person out of ketosis. In fact, there are UFC fighters & their trainers/nutritionists who advocate carb cycling. Basically inducing occassional glycemic spikes. I havent found a good explanation for it yet. But the last fighter who touched on the subject was TJ Dillishaw on Rogan’s podcast after his last fight. His trainer is pretty radical. Totally cutting edge shit. At first glance it doesnt make sense but I really want to understand the science behind the theory.
TJ mentioned that it’s just not possible to compete at his level while in full time ketosis. Yet their are other elite athletes that argue otherwise. It’s a interesting debate.
Expect a performance boost & the ability to really start pushing yourself at about the 30 day mark. That’s when you’ll be fully fat adapted AND have started to build a cardio base to work from.
Then the next level is “gut health”. Which unfortunately I was told the other day could take generations to rehab. Pretty fascinating topic.
Oh well, i aint stopping because i feel so much better. Next doc app is in 3 months, praying for at least a 10lb drop. (they have one of those scales i can just roll my chair on, so pretty much the easiest/only way i can get an accurate weight)
Tomorrow we start the 28 day Keto program we bought for $28. Had to finish off our own keto meals. I believe this will go well and we will stay on it. Quiting the cokes and candy was a lot easier than I thought cold Turkey.
1 pound of fat = 3500 calories (potential energy) = 14,644 joules (kinetic energy). Converted, a 2000 calorie/day diet equates to 8,368 joules. If a person exerts more than 8,368 joules/day, the excess joules are generated via the body's stored energy. Since energy=calories=weight (fat or otherwise), weight loss is inevitable.
However, I'm intrigued by this concept that perhaps the first law of thermodynamics is flawed. Please continue...
Our bodies are not all the same in the sense that different foods affect us differently. Some people are sensitive to glutens, others are not. Some people will die if they consume certain foods such as peanuts, while others don’t. To say that only one diet works because our bodies are the same is nonsense.
The only thing you tried doing was spinning vegan into a high fat keto version, that in fact isnt practical. The very fact that vegans would even try shifting to a high fat version only proves they had it wrong all along. I grew up around vegetarians my whole life. They had their hearts in the right place. But considering how wrong they were about soy, they clearly dont have a clue about nutrition.
High fat vegetarian diets work if they lean on dairy & oils hard enough. Two things you’ve tried denouncing.
There are other variables to factor in with regards to peanut or other allergies.
Glutens are a problem when not using yeast so there is a natural breakdown. But either way it’s irrelevant, the high carbs of grains are the bigger issue.
I really dont care how a person gets there, but all current evidence is telling us that a high fat diet is better for the human species. And try all you want, but you cant find any evidence proving that carbs are a essential nutrient to human development. Whereas both fat & protein are essential.
It’s pretty clear you’ve done very little research into this topic and/or are stuck on old tropes. Im all for healthy debate. But you’ve brought an amateurish argument to this discussion.
Im still waiting for you to explain how you and other vegans have some special liver that prefers a different metabolic state than the human species. ?
If your goal is to find optimum human performance, Ive found that you better be ready to pivot in the face of new evidence. I’ve tried vegetariansm, vegan, paleo, and many different routines in the gym. If you’ve pivoted to a high fat plant based diet, you’re now advocating keto but are too stubborn to admit it.
The science doesnt back up veganism yet it’s supporters cling to it like a religion. That’s because ultimately the push for veganism was never rooted in science. It was about ethics. Which people bought into, for some good reasons (we could do better with how we treat livestock & industrial ag is a major environmental concern).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism
You can try to shape the science to fit the narrative all you want. You’ve already attempted to redifine veganism as not being rooted in ethics and being low carb ?. But please, explain how your liver is functioning different than every other human’s on earth?
This thread was started for those interested in keto. If you want to start a thread debating various nutrition lifestyles, that would be more appropriate for you to push veganism. Otherwise, you are in fact derailing this thread. But again, Im open for debate. But bring something to the table other than hollow proclamations that vegan works or redefining veganism to suit your argument.
It messes up your metabolism too. On top of that, if you are cuttting sugar out of your diet you are only harming your metabolism further. The health rabbit hole is a trip. I’ve been studying this stuff for a while and have came across some good stuff and sources from people that aren’t trying to sell you on some quick fix bullshit. I’m telling you, the keto diet is short term gains and long term harmful. Most people that live in the city should be eating at least once an hour.
I’ve found that goats milk or A2 milk, raw honey, red meat (bison or grass fed beef), clean organic cheese, no gluten, cooked greens, list goes on... are all super beneficial. Stay away from Polyunsaturated fats (PUFA) and omega 3s the shit is poison. Check out the book how to heal your metabolism by kate deering that book is full of good shit. Skip all the green powder shake bs and trust your instincts, there are a ton of snake oil salesman desperate to make a buck on people’s ignorance on this subject and lot’s of misinformation out there to back it up. I know a lot of people claim that the keto diet is the end all diet but it’s no bueno.
Can you elaborate?
i’m about to get some shut eye real quick though zZzz
Be careful with this diet stuff guys, i’ve been reading stuff about “low cholesterol” “no sugar” in this thread. Low cholesterol combined with low magnesium levels are a road to some bad stuff. Not trying to stress anyone out cause stress is the worst thing for the body physiologically speaking, but ease into and out of this stuff if you’re doing it. Get some magnesium in you if your cholesterol is that low and stay away from high fructose corn syrup if you’re going to cut out the bad “sugar.”
I live in the woods - how often should I eat? And why?
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