Local Racing Classes by Qualifying Times?

WOW YOU MUST CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THAT $3 C CLASS TROPHY

Last time I went to a local race (and I haven't raced for 11 years) I thought..... hmmm... I could probably get about 8th place in 250c, or 2nd in 250b. If I ever race again it will be in the vet classes.

rmoto003 wrote:

WOW YOU MUST CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THAT $3 C CLASS TROPHY

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN?

mikec265 wrote:

Last time I went to a local race (and I haven't raced for 11 years) I thought..... hmmm... I could probably get about 8th place in 250c, or 2nd in 250b. If I ever race again it will be in the vet classes.

Would something like this encourage you to come back?

rmoto003 wrote:

WOW YOU MUST CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THAT $3 C CLASS TROPHY

I think you're thinking opposite what he's thinking. He's trying to get rid of the 5 people classes so everyone gets that $3 trophy. I think it's a good idea, but it will never fly with the promoters that try to get the LL race entrants. Maybe outlaw series could get this to work.

So I’m guessing got beat in the C class by a guy he believes should be in B class.

There is one problem. You will have people sand bag their practice or qualifying time to get in the class they want and then tear it up once it’s race time. It’s almost impossible to stop sandbagging.

The actual promoters are the ones that can be the best deterrent. They see a guy in the race that is sandbagging, no points for you in the 1st Moto and you’re bumped up to the next class for Moto 2. If they all started doing that, it would help. There is a promoter here in NC that does that. He doesn’t play around with sandbagging.

So you still want the 1st place in a 3 person class I guess?

Racer111 wrote:

So I’m guessing got beat in the C class by a guy he believes should be in B class.

There is one problem. You will have people sand bag their practice or qualifying time to get in the class they want and then tear it up once it’s race time. It’s almost impossible to stop sandbagging.

The actual promoters are the ones that can be the best deterrent. They see a guy in the race that is sandbagging, no points for you in the 1st Moto and you’re bumped up to the next class for Moto 2. If they all started doing that, it would help. There is a promoter here in NC that does that. He doesn’t play around with sandbagging.

I know most just respond to the title rather than reading, but that is the whole point of this concept:

*The Organizers look at the Overall results and ASSIGN riders to RIDE GROUPS as they see fit. Assume 100 riders, it could be 2 of 50, 3 of 33, 4 of 20 or even 40 group 1, 40 group 2 and 20 Group 3. The uncertainty of how the classes are split basically eliminates SANDBAGGING since you don't know how the classes will be cut up. The qualifying could also be worth 1 point per position in an Olympic scoring system to act as a points paying session

mikec265 wrote:

Last time I went to a local race (and I haven't raced for 11 years) I thought..... hmmm... I could probably get about 8th place in 250c, or 2nd in 250b. If I ever race again it will be in the vet classes.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Would something like this encourage you to come back?

No. But I have two 4 year old little buddies, a new peewee track, and next weekend my buddy is bull-dozing up a big bike track. If the kids want to race then I will race +30. Keep the young crazy squirrels away from me.

Good idea in theory. 100 riders. Top 25 from qualifying times race A. 26-50 race B etc. and so forth down the line.

Sandbagging will always be a problem but it does atleast make it more difficult than just signing up to race the class you know you can win.

I don't get the sandbagging thing though, i don't race anymore but when i did there was nothing worse than being out there by myself, the winner way out in front, the back markers way behind and me just chilling in the middle with nobody near me. I'd be down for a class structure that put me next to 5 guys all within a second of me, whether or not they were 18 yrs old, 45 yrs old, riding a 450 or a 150. But i always raced for fun not trophys so i guess there is that.

Would all the local tracks have to spend the thousands on the transponders and system or how would that work?

Would you expect all the local level racers have the extra few hundred at sign up to rent said transponders? For some, that would be a huge hit if you lost it which and didn't get your deposit back.

Tough crowd with mad fingers in here. LOL

There was a track near Houston that classed riders by lap times. Kind of similar to what you’re talking about. I remember riders seemed to like it from feedback I got. It was also an effort to curb sandbagging.

I would be game to try it.

Would not encourage me to race more. I know where I stand speed wise. If I get beat, oh well...My fault for not being in good enough shape and/or not being fast enough.

There is no way to stop sandbagging, bummer but true.

Awarding points for qualifying position would only work for the A class. It would basically be “luck of the draw” for whomever scored points in the slower classes.

imoto34 wrote:

Would all the local tracks have to spend the thousands on the transponders and system or how would that work?

Would you expect all the local level racers have the extra few hundred at sign up to rent said transponders? For some, that would be a huge hit if you lost it which and didn't get your deposit back.

I think every track and promoter in Colorado is already running transponders, I think paper scoring is the thing of the past at least around here.

It worked well at Cross Creek when Shawn tried it. Made for competitive classes with some actual racing.

Well, except for the Loretta wannabes who whined that it might screw up their precious RPI and someone might use it to protest them when they showed up in Tennessee to ride the C class.

In my opinion, racing has died off due to the time requirement for a day of racing. 48 classes, start at daylight, end at sundown, get a 4 lap first moto, 3 laps second moto, and wait all day to race. Blame it on the Loretta's class structure that promoters try to follow and trying to bleed 200 entries out of 75 actual riders that show up in order to break even.

That's how they did it in Ireland when I raced a few years back. You qualified in a group per your assigned class (A, B, C), and then the top 30/40 went group 1, next 30/40 qualified group 2 and so on. menat full gates until you hit the slowest group.

Holland was similar when I raced there. Made for much better racing. I never understood the concept of having a handful of bikes at a gate, may aswell just be at a practice day.

rmoto003 wrote:

WOW YOU MUST CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THAT $3 C CLASS TROPHY

yak651 wrote:

I think you're thinking opposite what he's thinking. He's trying to get rid of the 5 people classes so everyone gets that $3 trophy. I think it's a good idea, but it will never fly with the promoters that try to get the LL race entrants. Maybe outlaw series could get this to work.

This weekend I saw a guy actually post on Facebook that he had ridden good in practice and had a good shot at a 1-1 Moto finish because there were only 3 people signed up in his class. When my girls were under 10 they had already begun asking when I came home with a trophy for 1st place, ("out of how many?") because they had been to races and seen the sham 1st hand.

I'm considering being a 1st time promoter, and definitely Outlaw. If others happen to read this and jump onboard, I would be happy to help Make Motocross Great Again and share the idea. I suspect most will not change, most promoters are willing to make as many classes as they can make profit from.

mikec265 wrote:

Last time I went to a local race (and I haven't raced for 11 years) I thought..... hmmm... I could probably get about 8th place in 250c, or 2nd in 250b. If I ever race again it will be in the vet classes.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Would something like this encourage you to come back?

mikec265 wrote:

No. But I have two 4 year old little buddies, a new peewee track, and next weekend my buddy is bull-dozing up a big bike track. If the kids want to race then I will race +30. Keep the young crazy squirrels away from me.

This system would put you next to riders the same speed as you, and some of them might be younger than you, but I'm not sure that age is any guarantee of safety. I'm over 60 and you need to give me a wide berth on the starts..

haydos25 wrote:

Good idea in theory. 100 riders. Top 25 from qualifying times race A. 26-50 race B etc. and so forth down the line.

Sandbagging will always be a problem but it does atleast make it more difficult than just signing up to race the class you know you can win.

I don't get the sandbagging thing though, i don't race anymore but when i did there was nothing worse than being out there by myself, the winner way out in front, the back markers way behind and me just chilling in the middle with nobody near me. I'd be down for a class structure that put me next to 5 guys all within a second of me, whether or not they were 18 yrs old, 45 yrs old, riding a 450 or a 150. But i always raced for fun not trophys so i guess there is that.

Preventing riding by yourself, like a practice day, is exactly where this system would excel, by matching riders of the same caliber, regardless of what they ride or who they are. And yes, there will need to be more people understanding that they will go home without a trophy.

I'm gonna take a different approach and actually read and think about what you wrote before calling you a cry baby and being an arrogant prick.

I actually think it would be a great idea if you get a bunch of guys who don't take it serious and aren't trying to go pro or get to Loretta's. Last time I raced I was so damn bored throughout the day waiting around and I realized that I have way more fun and ride time just hitting practice days. If guys were split up by actual speed, not class since that isn't very effective anymore, it would really make the day faster and racing guys who are actually your speed would be a lot more fun. It sucks to have 5 guys in 250C and 5 guys in 250B who are the same speed, but never race each other because of the class designation. Not to mention, some tracks you just gel with and others you just don't, so this approach would address that issue as well. I don't care about chasing points or any of that crap, I just want to race with guys my speed and have some fun battles.

I'll be the first to say you've got some ridiculous ideas, but if people really took this seriously and went out to RACE, not just collect a trophy and stroke their ego, I think it could work really well.

imoto34 wrote:

Would all the local tracks have to spend the thousands on the transponders and system or how would that work?

Would you expect all the local level racers have the extra few hundred at sign up to rent said transponders? For some, that would be a huge hit if you lost it which and didn't get your deposit back.

Most likely the Series promoter would incur that cost, although the hope is that tracks will begin to take this on themselves. Many already do it for scoring, but have not changed the class system. This proposal is about taking that technology to the next step.

The RFID stickers are much like a toll tag, they are "passive" and have no battery or need for recharging. They are cheap (under $5 could buy 2-3 tags) and many consider them "disposable" at that price, although they last indefinitely.
They have a few drawbacks, they are not as consistent as the battery operated (10+ times more expensive) and require that the sticker "face" the receiver's which are placed at a slow corner to increase reliability.

Johnny Depp wrote:

Preventing riding by yourself, like a practice day, is exactly where this system would excel, by matching riders of the same caliber, regardless of what they ride or who they are. And yes, there will need to be more people understanding that they will go home without a trophy.

A $3 trophy isn't going to get me back onto a race track. Actually racing and battling people for the entire length of the race will. How much glory is there really in being the fastest +40 C grade rider on a 450 out of the 6 others that showed up on that particular day anyways?

I'd rather come 15th out of 30 in class #2, but i can bench race about how i was only 5 seconds behind 10th and was gaining on those guys in front of me if only there was another lap i would've had it for sure, and besides, they're all young bucks so they should be beating me. Those bullshit stories are much more fun to tell over a couple of beers anyways.

YZ324 wrote:

Tough crowd with mad fingers in here. LOL

There was a track near Houston that classed riders by lap times. Kind of similar to what you’re talking about. I remember riders seemed to like it from feedback I got. It was also an effort to curb sandbagging.

I would be game to try it.

You are likely thinking of Shawn at Cross Creek, but that track near Elgin is RIP. Shawn's approach was different in several ways, most obviously the no tech. It was based on black flagging any riders that zoomed away from the pack too soon, and sent them back to the line in the next class up. There were never less classes, or ride groups instead of classes, he just strictly enforced speed with the black flag. It was a popular concept, because it was considered to be free of Sandbaggers. The track went away for other reasons, vandalism being the biggest IIRC.

BobPA wrote:

Would not encourage me to race more. I know where I stand speed wise. If I get beat, oh well...My fault for not being in good enough shape and/or not being fast enough.

There is no way to stop sandbagging, bummer but true.

Awarding points for qualifying position would only work for the A class. It would basically be “luck of the draw” for whomever scored points in the slower classes.

That is a pessimistic attitude, and you are entitled to it.

Good input on the qualifying points, likely effective for A class, and the random pick of the size of the gate for other classes should suffice without awarding points.

imoto34 wrote:

Would all the local tracks have to spend the thousands on the transponders and system or how would that work?

Would you expect all the local level racers have the extra few hundred at sign up to rent said transponders? For some, that would be a huge hit if you lost it which and didn't get your deposit back.

lostboy819 wrote:

I think every track and promoter in Colorado is already running transponders, I think paper scoring is the thing of the past at least around here.

That's interesting to know, I only know of 1 TX track that just started e-scoring. The reduction of labor through manual timing is a nice unintended upside.

DavetheVintageGuy wrote:

It worked well at Cross Creek when Shawn tried it. Made for competitive classes with some actual racing.

Well, except for the Loretta wannabes who whined that it might screw up their precious RPI and someone might use it to protest them when they showed up in Tennessee to ride the C class.

In my opinion, racing has died off due to the time requirement for a day of racing. 48 classes, start at daylight, end at sundown, get a 4 lap first moto, 3 laps second moto, and wait all day to race. Blame it on the Loretta's class structure that promoters try to follow and trying to bleed 200 entries out of 75 actual riders that show up in order to break even.

You are right about Cross Creek. It gave them an identity. The LL event has a trickle down effect to the rest of the amateur world since it is the biggest deal out there and has been forever it seems. The riders are surely concerned with being bumped, and "ride groups" may or may not solve that issue.

Your time statement couldn't be more true, and the operator of Spoaks Motopark has an even more dire story than that. At your local track Cycle Ranch, under previous mgmt., He and his father gave up on the 1st moto not being run at sunset and went home. The track switched operations to the night track and kept running til the wee hours of the morning, trying to qualify riders for the "Holy Grail" Loretta Lynn's. Small wonder that track had trouble.

wheres wally wrote:

That's how they did it in Ireland when I raced a few years back. You qualified in a group per your assigned class (A, B, C), and then the top 30/40 went group 1, next 30/40 qualified group 2 and so on. menat full gates until you hit the slowest group.

Holland was similar when I raced there. Made for much better racing. I never understood the concept of having a handful of bikes at a gate, may aswell just be at a practice day.

That's interesting, and I hadn't heard it before. So in another world, far far away across the ocean, Motocross makes sense? Thanks for sharing.

JM485 wrote:

I'm gonna take a different approach and actually read and think about what you wrote before calling you a cry baby and being an arrogant prick.

I actually think it would be a great idea if you get a bunch of guys who don't take it serious and aren't trying to go pro or get to Loretta's. Last time I raced I was so damn bored throughout the day waiting around and I realized that I have way more fun and ride time just hitting practice days. If guys were split up by actual speed, not class since that isn't very effective anymore, it would really make the day faster and racing guys who are actually your speed would be a lot more fun. It sucks to have 5 guys in 250C and 5 guys in 250B who are the same speed, but never race each other because of the class designation. Not to mention, some tracks you just gel with and others you just don't, so this approach would address that issue as well. I don't care about chasing points or any of that crap, I just want to race with guys my speed and have some fun battles.

I'll be the first to say you've got some ridiculous ideas, but if people really took this seriously and went out to RACE, not just collect a trophy and stroke their ego, I think it could work really well.

I always liked you..damn good head on your shoulders for such a young man. Your reputation could be ruined by siding with me on anything

Likely less than 1% who ever throw a leg over a dirt bike will ever make a penny from riding it. This sport is strange though, in that most never get that, and take it way too serious. We aren't playing checkers here, if you are into this sport you have a big heart and balls. The question for viability of this concept relies on pulling more riders in from other disciplines, and developing new hybrid racing styles incorporating many things like Endurocross and Scrambles and Grass track may also be a part of what is needed to attract new and old blood back to the track. Thanks for the comment.

DavetheVintageGuy wrote:

It worked well at Cross Creek when Shawn tried it. Made for competitive classes with some actual racing.

Well, except for the Loretta wannabes who whined that it might screw up their precious RPI and someone might use it to protest them when they showed up in Tennessee to ride the C class.

In my opinion, racing has died off due to the time requirement for a day of racing. 48 classes, start at daylight, end at sundown, get a 4 lap first moto, 3 laps second moto, and wait all day to race. Blame it on the Loretta's class structure that promoters try to follow and trying to bleed 200 entries out of 75 actual riders that show up in order to break even.

Johnny Depp wrote:

You are right about Cross Creek. It gave them an identity. The LL event has a trickle down effect to the rest of the amateur world since it is the biggest deal out there and has been forever it seems. The riders are surely concerned with being bumped, and "ride groups" may or may not solve that issue.

Your time statement couldn't be more true, and the operator of Spoaks Motopark has an even more dire story than that. At your local track Cycle Ranch, under previous mgmt., He and his father gave up on the 1st moto not being run at sunset and went home. The track switched operations to the night track and kept running til the wee hours of the morning, trying to qualify riders for the "Holy Grail" Loretta Lynn's. Small wonder that track had trouble.

Thankfully, the guy that owned Cycle Ranch back then "Richard Head " has moved on to trying to be a life guru to others and since the new management has been in place it seems to be coming back to it's former glory.

I haven't had a chance to venture up to Spoaks yet, but it's on my list of "to do's"

As far as the Loretta's heros are concerned, they race so few local races I don't think they are really a factor anyway. It's mainly just a few mini-dads that have a bigger wallet than their...well, you know.