I like less powerful bikes!

moto0852
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moto0852
Edited Date/Time 7/24/2015 6:11am
It just hit me watching this video! I have come to grips with the fact long ago that I just can't wring out all the performance of todays technology. I've always thought that racing "back in the day" for me was funner because I was faster then but now I really believe its because it was more about the rider and less about the bike.
This isnt a 2t vs. 4t thing or even a plea to detune the current bike (love watching the top guys handle 65 hp bikes)

It's just a different experience when you're battling at 30 mph than 45 mph. Enjoy the video

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ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 7/23/2015 12:36pm
7/23/2015 12:36pm
The power of an early 90s 250 is all I need . It's actually more but there's too much shifting on a 125 for my taste.
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mark_swart 7/23/2015 12:55pm
7/23/2015 12:55pm
There is a thread in Old School Moto with some dyno numbers that is interesting. 125s in the mid 80s were in mid-high 20s for horsepower. 250s in the 30s. By 90s it had climbed into the 30s/40s. 250fs are now around 40 and 450s...55+. The 500s were killed off in part because they were so fast.
There's no way to get the genie back in the bottle, but I think good HP numbers are probably around 35 for the small class and 50 for the big class. But there is no way to limit by HP, only displacement.
T.Page
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T.Page 7/23/2015 1:19pm
7/23/2015 1:19pm
I am lucky to have multiple bikes to choose from. Vintage bikes and modern bikes. 125-500 as well as 250f-510f. I never thought the 500 two stroke as being difficult to ride, you just have to ride it lkme a 500 two stroke. Some times I feel the 500 is eaiser then a 250 two stroke cause you just short shift for the most part. I usually take a bike and ride it for a few weeks, clean it and grab another. I've been on a kx 153 all year for moto and 310f husky on trail. Today I was on a rm250 and loving it , gonna stay on 250 2 stroke for a couple weeks and probably 250f after that. Definitely vintage stuff mixed in. Sorry for the novel. I just love riding dirt bikes.

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jeffro503
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jeffro503 7/23/2015 1:28pm
7/23/2015 1:28pm
I like the 125's , but coming from the 450's it's just a total different ball game. I chose to go the route of the 250 2 stroke and after every time I ride it , I know I made the best decision for myself. Still have the 450 , which I'm having a hard time trying to convince myself to get rid of it. But I'm in no hurry actually to pick up a 250F , as I'm just having to much fun on my old RM.
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Tbteam 7/23/2015 1:31pm
7/23/2015 1:31pm
A few years back I spent three seasons racing a 1980 CR125 in the Vintage Intermediate/Expert class.

I had more fun during that time than I ever had on all the four strokes i owned. That being said, it's still personal preference.
T.Page
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T.Page 7/23/2015 1:42pm
7/23/2015 1:42pm
Jeffro, keep them all if you can. Just my 2 cents. So fun swaping bikes and finding how they have their own personality, traits, strengths and weaknesses..
731chopper
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731chopper 7/23/2015 1:46pm
7/23/2015 1:46pm
Pushing a machine to the edge of its ability is always more fun than going at 60% IMO. I learned this lesson several years ago when I started to get into auto racing. I had an old 89 BMW 325is that I could rip around the track in screeching the tires and screaming the motor. I later got a 2003 M3 and while I could log much faster lap times in it, it wasn't as fun as that little 325. I was talking about this to an owner of a motorsports shop and race team. He told me I wouldn't believe how many people come to him with 550+ horsepower camaroes asking how they can go faster on the track. He would tell them the first thing they're doing is putting the motor back to stock until they can turn better times than his 400 horsepower race team camaroes. Horsepower is fun in a straight line but that doesn't always translate to fun in the corners or quicker times.

I never really got into auto racing. I quickly realized that I could have more fun for a LOT less money on a dirt bike so I came back home to motocross.
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Krazyk2774 7/23/2015 2:01pm
7/23/2015 2:01pm
When I was a kid you didn't get a bigger bike until you could ride the old one past it's limits and started breaking things! Now if I was racing I would want a smaller 125 / 250f, and for off road I like the 450. The sand dunes are a whole different animal, you can never have too much power when your trying to beat your buddy in a race up a big steep dune! CR500 with lots of engine work!!! Evil
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montesagold 7/23/2015 2:26pm
7/23/2015 2:26pm
I grew up racing a kdx 200 in offroad and a wr300 husky now. I always learned to short shift and use only what I need. I restored a 75' Bultaco 360 Pursang and that theory proves itself now more than ever. while the 360 has good power, my 6'2 235 frame mellows it out! I guess the main thing, your on a small bore or open bike, corner speed is where its at and you will never be fast in the turns absolutly lighting up the rear tire.
10000hrs
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10000hrs 7/23/2015 2:40pm
7/23/2015 2:40pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2015 2:44pm
731chopper wrote:
Pushing a machine to the edge of its ability is always more fun than going at 60% IMO. I learned this lesson several years ago when...
Pushing a machine to the edge of its ability is always more fun than going at 60% IMO. I learned this lesson several years ago when I started to get into auto racing. I had an old 89 BMW 325is that I could rip around the track in screeching the tires and screaming the motor. I later got a 2003 M3 and while I could log much faster lap times in it, it wasn't as fun as that little 325. I was talking about this to an owner of a motorsports shop and race team. He told me I wouldn't believe how many people come to him with 550+ horsepower camaroes asking how they can go faster on the track. He would tell them the first thing they're doing is putting the motor back to stock until they can turn better times than his 400 horsepower race team camaroes. Horsepower is fun in a straight line but that doesn't always translate to fun in the corners or quicker times.

I never really got into auto racing. I quickly realized that I could have more fun for a LOT less money on a dirt bike so I came back home to motocross.
I agree.

I guessed I was racing my 73 cr125 to 99% of its limit and I felt like a god.

I guess I was racing my 75 yz250b to 95% of its potential and I felt like superman.

I guess I was riding my 77 yz400 to 65% of its potential and I felt like a failure.

Gave up MX and went to Hare Scambles after a year of that.

As a side note, after a 30 year layoff, I recently bought a used kx250f, my first four stroke. I am having a good time but took several sessions to learn it wears you out to ride it like a two stroke by steering with the throttle. Also it feels like the center of gravity is higher on a four stroke.
seph
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seph 7/23/2015 2:41pm
7/23/2015 2:41pm
"It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow!"
moto0852
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moto0852 7/23/2015 2:45pm
7/23/2015 2:45pm
seph wrote:
"It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow!"
There you go! Succinctly sums up everything I was rambling on about!!!!!
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gt80rider 7/23/2015 3:21pm
7/23/2015 3:21pm
seph wrote:
"It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow!"
This is truth.

And most average riders get nowhere close to using the potential of a modern mx bike. Sadly nobody makes a good mx bike for the average joe, except perhaps the few 125s that are still on the market.
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DTHA70 7/23/2015 3:21pm
7/23/2015 3:21pm
mark_swart wrote:
There is a thread in Old School Moto with some dyno numbers that is interesting. 125s in the mid 80s were in mid-high 20s for horsepower...
There is a thread in Old School Moto with some dyno numbers that is interesting. 125s in the mid 80s were in mid-high 20s for horsepower. 250s in the 30s. By 90s it had climbed into the 30s/40s. 250fs are now around 40 and 450s...55+. The 500s were killed off in part because they were so fast.
There's no way to get the genie back in the bottle, but I think good HP numbers are probably around 35 for the small class and 50 for the big class. But there is no way to limit by HP, only displacement.
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring its neck. Having a really fast 450 is nice though especially for a bigger guy like me, more than levels the playing field on the start. I have to do something really wrong to NOT get a holeshot.

modern national caliber 250f's are making north of 45hp and most factory 450s are hovering around the 65hp mark and are limited to that because of sound testing. The factory boys would, without a doubt, be riding 80hp 450's if sound wasnt an issue.

mine is just a hair under 70hp on pump gas and stock bore X stroke
#991
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#991 7/23/2015 3:25pm
7/23/2015 3:25pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2015 3:35pm
mark_swart wrote:
There is a thread in Old School Moto with some dyno numbers that is interesting. 125s in the mid 80s were in mid-high 20s for horsepower...
There is a thread in Old School Moto with some dyno numbers that is interesting. 125s in the mid 80s were in mid-high 20s for horsepower. 250s in the 30s. By 90s it had climbed into the 30s/40s. 250fs are now around 40 and 450s...55+. The 500s were killed off in part because they were so fast.
There's no way to get the genie back in the bottle, but I think good HP numbers are probably around 35 for the small class and 50 for the big class. But there is no way to limit by HP, only displacement.
Closer to 40HP stock on the 125's now (2016 KTM). My ported (for MX) 06 RM125 engine has 42 at the rear wheel (road bike rear tire on the dyno).

My 02 RM144 engine has 38HP. Set up for off road.

Check this out. Smooth curve!! (Note the EXC)
https://www.facebook.com/TwoStrokePerformance/photos/a.284879841579324…
731chopper
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731chopper 7/23/2015 3:30pm
7/23/2015 3:30pm
DTHA70 wrote:
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring...
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring its neck. Having a really fast 450 is nice though especially for a bigger guy like me, more than levels the playing field on the start. I have to do something really wrong to NOT get a holeshot.

modern national caliber 250f's are making north of 45hp and most factory 450s are hovering around the 65hp mark and are limited to that because of sound testing. The factory boys would, without a doubt, be riding 80hp 450's if sound wasnt an issue.

mine is just a hair under 70hp on pump gas and stock bore X stroke
I think Matthes said that some of the big 250f teams like PC and Geico are a few pegs north of 50!
#991
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#991 7/23/2015 3:32pm
7/23/2015 3:32pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2015 3:32pm
DTHA70 wrote:
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring...
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring its neck. Having a really fast 450 is nice though especially for a bigger guy like me, more than levels the playing field on the start. I have to do something really wrong to NOT get a holeshot.

modern national caliber 250f's are making north of 45hp and most factory 450s are hovering around the 65hp mark and are limited to that because of sound testing. The factory boys would, without a doubt, be riding 80hp 450's if sound wasnt an issue.

mine is just a hair under 70hp on pump gas and stock bore X stroke
731chopper wrote:
I think Matthes said that some of the big 250f teams like PC and Geico are a few pegs north of 50!
Oops. Sorry.

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Matt Fisher 7/23/2015 4:00pm
7/23/2015 4:00pm
DTHA70 wrote:
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring...
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring its neck. Having a really fast 450 is nice though especially for a bigger guy like me, more than levels the playing field on the start. I have to do something really wrong to NOT get a holeshot.

modern national caliber 250f's are making north of 45hp and most factory 450s are hovering around the 65hp mark and are limited to that because of sound testing. The factory boys would, without a doubt, be riding 80hp 450's if sound wasnt an issue.

mine is just a hair under 70hp on pump gas and stock bore X stroke
731chopper wrote:
I think Matthes said that some of the big 250f teams like PC and Geico are a few pegs north of 50!
Yep. DeCoster let it slip in a video not long ago that their 250F was making 52hp.
jeffro503
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jeffro503 7/23/2015 4:12pm
7/23/2015 4:12pm
DTHA70 wrote:
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring...
until youve ridden a 70hp 450, you havent lived. my RM 250 is fun because it feels slow compared to my 450 and i can wring its neck. Having a really fast 450 is nice though especially for a bigger guy like me, more than levels the playing field on the start. I have to do something really wrong to NOT get a holeshot.

modern national caliber 250f's are making north of 45hp and most factory 450s are hovering around the 65hp mark and are limited to that because of sound testing. The factory boys would, without a doubt, be riding 80hp 450's if sound wasnt an issue.

mine is just a hair under 70hp on pump gas and stock bore X stroke
731chopper wrote:
I think Matthes said that some of the big 250f teams like PC and Geico are a few pegs north of 50!
Matt Fisher wrote:
Yep. DeCoster let it slip in a video not long ago that their 250F was making 52hp.
Yep. DeCoster let it slip in a video not long ago that their 250F was making 52hp.
That is insane for a 4 stroke 250! That's actually on the high end of a extremely built 250 2 stroke! Sheesh!

And yeah , we have most of our youth moving up from 85cc bikes to that.

Proves why I argue the point that we really need the 125 class back.....sooo badly!
jeffro503
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jeffro503 7/23/2015 4:12pm
7/23/2015 4:12pm
BTW....i'm outta here for the PIR Pro shootout , talk to you guys soon!
montesagold
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montesagold 7/23/2015 4:35pm
7/23/2015 4:35pm
10000hrs wrote:
I agree. I guessed I was racing my 73 cr125 to 99% of its limit and I felt like a god. I guess I was racing...
I agree.

I guessed I was racing my 73 cr125 to 99% of its limit and I felt like a god.

I guess I was racing my 75 yz250b to 95% of its potential and I felt like superman.

I guess I was riding my 77 yz400 to 65% of its potential and I felt like a failure.

Gave up MX and went to Hare Scambles after a year of that.

As a side note, after a 30 year layoff, I recently bought a used kx250f, my first four stroke. I am having a good time but took several sessions to learn it wears you out to ride it like a two stroke by steering with the throttle. Also it feels like the center of gravity is higher on a four stroke.
well said. been enjoying vintage racing for the same reason, i feel when i'm pushing the chassis of my Bultaco. If i got that same feeling with a modern bike, would bound to already be out of control.
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Spartacus 7/23/2015 4:44pm
7/23/2015 4:44pm
I've ridden nothing but CR500's for so long that that level of power seems "normal" to me now. My current '83 cr480 seems down on power....

Not saying that I use the power to its potential, I'm just use to it.

Just bought an '80 cr250, itt will be the first time on a 250 since about 1993 when it get here.
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 7/23/2015 4:47pm
7/23/2015 4:47pm
seph wrote:
"It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow!"
gt80rider wrote:
This is truth. And most average riders get nowhere close to using the potential of a modern mx bike. Sadly nobody makes a good mx bike...
This is truth.

And most average riders get nowhere close to using the potential of a modern mx bike. Sadly nobody makes a good mx bike for the average joe, except perhaps the few 125s that are still on the market.
The best bike I've ridden for the average joe would have been my 2010 Husky CR125 with a carefully set up 165 big bore kit. It wasn't faster than a nicely tuned 144 but you didn't have to shift it any more than you would most 250's. It had enough bottom-mid that with 13-52 gearing you only needed to drop down to 2nd gear for the slowest of corners, it would carry 3rd with a bit of clutch abuse even with my fat ass on it. It was a 250F killer and it handled like a BMX, you could put that thing anywhere.

I don't mind shifting so I'm just as happy with my 144 but I can see something like that 165 being the every-man's bike. Handling like a 125 but power like a late 90's CR250 with low compression..
#991
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#991 7/23/2015 6:03pm
7/23/2015 6:03pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2015 6:18pm
seph wrote:
"It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow!"
gt80rider wrote:
This is truth. And most average riders get nowhere close to using the potential of a modern mx bike. Sadly nobody makes a good mx bike...
This is truth.

And most average riders get nowhere close to using the potential of a modern mx bike. Sadly nobody makes a good mx bike for the average joe, except perhaps the few 125s that are still on the market.
nytsmaC wrote:
The best bike I've ridden for the average joe would have been my 2010 Husky CR125 with a carefully set up 165 big bore kit. It...
The best bike I've ridden for the average joe would have been my 2010 Husky CR125 with a carefully set up 165 big bore kit. It wasn't faster than a nicely tuned 144 but you didn't have to shift it any more than you would most 250's. It had enough bottom-mid that with 13-52 gearing you only needed to drop down to 2nd gear for the slowest of corners, it would carry 3rd with a bit of clutch abuse even with my fat ass on it. It was a 250F killer and it handled like a BMX, you could put that thing anywhere.

I don't mind shifting so I'm just as happy with my 144 but I can see something like that 165 being the every-man's bike. Handling like a 125 but power like a late 90's CR250 with low compression..
My next project will be a 2016 YZ125 with a 167 kit, setup for XC. For all the reasons you mentioned above Wink . Mountain bike on steroids Woohoo .

Strange how no one wants to change gears on a dirt bike but they don't want to drive automatic cars either.
If you're changing gears, good chance you're revving fuck outta the bike, If you're revving fuck outta the bike you're having fun. And people don't like that? Get a Tractor then. Ie, 450 4T/300 2T.


Get off your 450 Tractors, jump on a 125 and you'll see just how much your riding skills have dropped off.

IMO, dirt bikes are the same as a PS4 game. If it gets easy, It gets boring, really quick. The challange is half the fun. Make a slight mistake on a 125, there's no where to hide. It'll stick out like Dogs balls.
The Rock
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The Rock 7/23/2015 6:27pm
7/23/2015 6:27pm
731chopper wrote:
I think Matthes said that some of the big 250f teams like PC and Geico are a few pegs north of 50!
Star Racing
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The Rock 7/23/2015 6:31pm
7/23/2015 6:31pm
#991 wrote:
My next project will be a 2016 YZ125 with a 167 kit, setup for XC. For all the reasons you mentioned above ;) . Mountain bike...
My next project will be a 2016 YZ125 with a 167 kit, setup for XC. For all the reasons you mentioned above Wink . Mountain bike on steroids Woohoo .

Strange how no one wants to change gears on a dirt bike but they don't want to drive automatic cars either.
If you're changing gears, good chance you're revving fuck outta the bike, If you're revving fuck outta the bike you're having fun. And people don't like that? Get a Tractor then. Ie, 450 4T/300 2T.


Get off your 450 Tractors, jump on a 125 and you'll see just how much your riding skills have dropped off.

IMO, dirt bikes are the same as a PS4 game. If it gets easy, It gets boring, really quick. The challange is half the fun. Make a slight mistake on a 125, there's no where to hide. It'll stick out like Dogs balls.
If the stars align this Sunday I will go riding with a buddy who has a pair of KTMs a 150 and a 300. He will put me on the 150 and I'm looking forward to it. Only raced a 125 a couple of times after starting racing at 15 and a half on a 1972 250 AJS.

We will be single track riding and it will be interesting to see how much easier single track is on a smaller bike. I hated it a couple of years ago when I did it on a KTM300 and a 250 Gas Gas. I am a MX guy through and through but I have to get on a bike more so single track here we come...hopefully.
Caseclosed713 7/23/2015 7:33pm
7/23/2015 7:33pm
I just came off an RM250 after finding a cheap barely ridden 2013 YZ125 and i feel it was the best decision i could have made. I feel completelty at home on it. I think its an excellent tool for learning too, it forces you to keep your momentum up because a mistake isnt easily corrected by just a handful of throttle.
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VET176 7/23/2015 7:47pm
7/23/2015 7:47pm
Well it worked for me.

In 2014 I raced a 250F for a whole season and got the best results in my 25 year riding career. The season before I raced in the Vet’s class on a 450 and would get the occasional top 5. Last year I was battling up front against the same guys.

But alas, my racing days are over and have now bought a YZ250 as a fun bike.
TX_187
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TX_187 7/23/2015 7:51pm
7/23/2015 7:51pm
I've always said, it's more fun to ride a slower bike fast than it is to ride a faster bike slow.

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