Are they clearing riders too early?
Are the riders lying about their symptoms?
Should they have a mandatory 2 weeks off protocol after a rider hits their head?
What riders have shown or admitted to concussion affects being the main contributor to a subsequent crash/adverse event during a race?
I think Bogle has pulled out of races on account of not being recovered from a prior concussion, and JS7 in 2016 after the A1 crash, anyone else come to mind recently?
I’ve been thru the protocols myself and with other riders as their representative at races. They work. I’ve been in other countries/racing orgs where I’ve had to go find someone to put my rider thru the protocols (I didn’t want to even think about the next Moto, yet the idea of flying home, without the basic knowledge that the protocols and a trained professional can provide). A little basic info to at least try to know how the riders head is doing is a good thing to have.
I once had a rider in another country that had hit his face/head into the face of a jump so hard that he had all these blown-out blood vessels in his eyes…the doctor at the ER understood why I wanted a specialist/neurologist or someone with real expertise in these situations to “decide” if/when he should fly home.
This shit is scary; but, we’re slowly starting to figure some of it out.
Has the SX concussion protocol ever prevented someone from racing the next week?
The NFL concussion protocol has undergone a few changes in its long history. I tried to find out how many diagnosed concussions there were and it looks like 224 in 2019 to give some context to other organizations who have concussion protocols that get used. (I believe that includes preseason practice).
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols in place, everyone should listen to the podcast below before responding…
Has the SX concussion protocol ever prevented someone from racing the next week?
The NFL concussion protocol has undergone a few changes in its long history...
Has the SX concussion protocol ever prevented someone from racing the next week?
The NFL concussion protocol has undergone a few changes in its long history. I tried to find out how many diagnosed concussions there were and it looks like 224 in 2019 to give some context to other organizations who have concussion protocols that get used. (I believe that includes preseason practice).
Marv missed Dallas last year and Barcia missed Atlanta in 2019 for concussion protocol.
That said, brain injury is notoriously difficut to diagnose (moreso with a patient intentionally avoiding diagnosis) and a determined athlete can probably pass many diagnostic protocols.
Until medical technology advances, I think all you are going to ultimately have in most sports is what we currently have: a good faith effort to weed out the guys who are obviously struggling with basic balance/cognition and expectations that athletes self-assess their readiness in other cases. Maybe throw in some athlete education on long-term outcomes so they can make better decisions, especially in cases where there is little to gain by pushing their recovery timelines.
They're doing fine.
I'm sure the people being paid to make sure the riders are okay and race-ready, as well as the people being paid to make the rules and protocols, know more than people on Vital about what's best.
I'm not an expert on concussions, nor do I know what the AMA's concussion protocol is. All I can say is that I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether it should be changed.
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual lab tests? In football, it is a joke....
They're doing fine.
I'm sure the people being paid to make sure the riders are okay and race-ready, as well as the people being paid to...
They're doing fine.
I'm sure the people being paid to make sure the riders are okay and race-ready, as well as the people being paid to make the rules and protocols, know more than people on Vital about what's best.
Organizations make changes to concussion protocols quite often. You could have written this about the 2012 NFL season and found out that "the people" have updated/improved upon that several times since. It's not unreasonable to ask if it should be updated for SX.
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual...
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual lab tests? In football, it is a joke....
From the podcast linked in this discussion, it sounds like it is a similar battery of balance/sensory testing against a historic basline like you would see in football.
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual...
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual lab tests? In football, it is a joke....
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual...
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual lab tests? In football, it is a joke....
From the podcast linked in this discussion, it sounds like it is a similar battery of balance/sensory testing against a historic basline like you would see...
From the podcast linked in this discussion, it sounds like it is a similar battery of balance/sensory testing against a historic basline like you would see in football.
in the NFL: "If they observe one of a few “no-go” signs — loss of consciousness, Gross Motor Instability, confusion or amnesia — no evaluation is necessary. The player is diagnosed with a concussion and ruled out for the game."
2. Game Day Symptoms/Return to Play
a. “No-Go” Signs and Symptoms. If a player exhibits or reports any of
the following signs or symptoms of concussion, he must be removed
immediately from the field of play and transported to the locker room.
If a neutral sideline observer or a member of the player’s club’s medical
team observes a player exhibit or receives a report that a player has
experienced any of the following signs or symptoms, the player shall be
considered to have suffered a concussion and may not return to
participation (practice or play) on the same day under any
circumstances:
i. Loss of Consciousness (including Impact Seizure and/or “fencing posture”)
ii. Gross Motor Instability (GMI), identified in the judgment of
the club medical staff in consultation with the Sideline UNC,
who observe the player’s behavior, have access to the player’s
relevant history and are able to rule out an orthopedic cause for
any observed instability
iii. Confusion
iv. Amnesia
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual...
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual lab tests? In football, it is a joke....
From the podcast linked in this discussion, it sounds like it is a similar battery of balance/sensory testing against a historic basline like you would see...
From the podcast linked in this discussion, it sounds like it is a similar battery of balance/sensory testing against a historic basline like you would see in football.
in the NFL: "If they observe one of a few “no-go” signs — loss of consciousness, Gross Motor Instability, confusion or amnesia — no evaluation is...
in the NFL: "If they observe one of a few “no-go” signs — loss of consciousness, Gross Motor Instability, confusion or amnesia — no evaluation is necessary. The player is diagnosed with a concussion and ruled out for the game."
2. Game Day Symptoms/Return to Play
a. “No-Go” Signs and Symptoms. If a player exhibits or reports any of
the following signs or symptoms of concussion, he must be removed
immediately from the field of play and transported to the locker room.
If a neutral sideline observer or a member of the player’s club’s medical
team observes a player exhibit or receives a report that a player has
experienced any of the following signs or symptoms, the player shall be
considered to have suffered a concussion and may not return to
participation (practice or play) on the same day under any
circumstances:
i. Loss of Consciousness (including Impact Seizure and/or “fencing posture”)
ii. Gross Motor Instability (GMI), identified in the judgment of
the club medical staff in consultation with the Sideline UNC,
who observe the player’s behavior, have access to the player’s
relevant history and are able to rule out an orthopedic cause for
any observed instability
iii. Confusion
iv. Amnesia
I was thinking the question from GT80 was about clearing ithe imPACT test (which would occur in a diagnostic checkup after the medical event), not the competition guidelines.
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual...
Does anyone know exactly what the protocol for mx is? A list of questions? Who's the president? When were u born? Etc? Or something different, actual lab tests? In football, it is a joke....
Reaction time tests and eye coordination among other things. You could find this stuff out with a little research.
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols...
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols in place, everyone should listen to the podcast below before responding…
Definitely NOT out of hand discussion. You literally said people can't voice their opinion...That's what this forum is for "Opinions". No one is taking medical advice here. Most of this post became a personal experiences list which is awesome.
I asked the Original question because the guys that have hit their head pretty good lately have been going down repeatedly after it.. Sexton and RJ mainly.
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols...
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols in place, everyone should listen to the podcast below before responding…
Definitely NOT out of hand discussion. You literally said people can't voice their opinion...That's what this forum is for "Opinions". No one is taking medical advice...
Definitely NOT out of hand discussion. You literally said people can't voice their opinion...That's what this forum is for "Opinions". No one is taking medical advice here. Most of this post became a personal experiences list which is awesome.
I asked the Original question because the guys that have hit their head pretty good lately have been going down repeatedly after it.. Sexton and RJ mainly.
Nope didn’t say anything about people can’t voice their opinion…I said many opinions are without knowledge or understanding of the protocols…in most of the threads on this topic there are people claiming that so and so rider is concussed because they saw it on TV and that there is somehow Dr’s being bought off so these riders can ride…that’s what is out of hand…
Silly humans think they will ever understand the brain. We can build computers, not brains. You all want to watch racing? Let them race. Pretty soon our self driving vehicles with 84 point safety harnesses, indy grade helmets. ahh, who cares. I just hope you all look up and appreciate the skies and the clouds once in awhile! Maybe even visit a place now and then that has some trees.
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols...
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols in place, everyone should listen to the podcast below before responding…
This podcast got me more interested in the science and I was quite relieved to hear what Dr. Reiman was doing. I thought it was interesting to hear him saying he was the only ortho surgeon at many of the neuro conferences he attends. There were some items I wanted explained a little better after that interview, and ended up finding this complete concussion management channel (they also have in podcast form but sometimes he draws on the whiteboard).
I think the A* crew is taking this topic very seriously and doing a lot more than many people realize. I don't think we have enough information about the rider simply after seeing a crash to armchair any decisions on if they are doing enough or not to address concussions.
Has the SX concussion protocol ever prevented someone from racing the next week?
The NFL concussion protocol has undergone a few changes in its long history...
Has the SX concussion protocol ever prevented someone from racing the next week?
The NFL concussion protocol has undergone a few changes in its long history. I tried to find out how many diagnosed concussions there were and it looks like 224 in 2019 to give some context to other organizations who have concussion protocols that get used. (I believe that includes preseason practice).
Marv missed Dallas last year and Barcia missed Atlanta in 2019 for concussion protocol.
That said, brain injury is notoriously difficut to diagnose (moreso with a...
Marv missed Dallas last year and Barcia missed Atlanta in 2019 for concussion protocol.
That said, brain injury is notoriously difficut to diagnose (moreso with a patient intentionally avoiding diagnosis) and a determined athlete can probably pass many diagnostic protocols.
Until medical technology advances, I think all you are going to ultimately have in most sports is what we currently have: a good faith effort to weed out the guys who are obviously struggling with basic balance/cognition and expectations that athletes self-assess their readiness in other cases. Maybe throw in some athlete education on long-term outcomes so they can make better decisions, especially in cases where there is little to gain by pushing their recovery timelines.
Question still is did they sit on their own? Or were they forced by protocol?
No doubt some dirt bike racers are or will suffer from CTE. Look at Dave Mira in the BMX world. You can’t tell me BMX’rs hit their head harder or more often then these racers. Just like in peewee football, most racers have suffered their first concussion by age 10.
Helmets have come a long ways since my racing days atleast.
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols...
This topic is really gotten out of hand with the majority of opinions coming from people that have zero knowledge or understanding of the existing protocols in place, everyone should listen to the podcast below before responding…
Definitely NOT out of hand discussion. You literally said people can't voice their opinion...That's what this forum is for "Opinions". No one is taking medical advice...
Definitely NOT out of hand discussion. You literally said people can't voice their opinion...That's what this forum is for "Opinions". No one is taking medical advice here. Most of this post became a personal experiences list which is awesome.
I asked the Original question because the guys that have hit their head pretty good lately have been going down repeatedly after it.. Sexton and RJ mainly.
Nope didn’t say anything about people can’t voice their opinion…I said many opinions are without knowledge or understanding of the protocols…in most of the threads on...
Nope didn’t say anything about people can’t voice their opinion…I said many opinions are without knowledge or understanding of the protocols…in most of the threads on this topic there are people claiming that so and so rider is concussed because they saw it on TV and that there is somehow Dr’s being bought off so these riders can ride…that’s what is out of hand…
I’ll start by saying I’m not a doctor lol. But I diagnosed many times a broken leg by what I saw on TV. How did I do this?? The leg was bent in a direction legs don’t bend. Similarly when I see a rider hit his head and is stumbling around, I know he has a concussion. I only can’t tell the severity. That’s because if you get hit in the head hard enough to be ko’d or wobbly then you have a concussion. Same way that bend in the leg means it’s broken. You can get a concussion and never even be wobbly. But You can’t get ko’d and not have a concussion. And just for the record, doctors are people who often times are giving their opinions. Many times doctors are wrong and wise people say get a second OPINION. I can’t tell you how many times i or people I know (and I’m sure you too) dealt with a doctor who was wrong in his diagnosis. We still need doctors but don’t act like they are never wrong or that they always do what’s right. A decent amount of the diagnosis will rely on the athlete telling the truth about how he feels. No athlete would ever lie about their symptoms would they? Lol! Stewart in 2016 was cleared to ride by DOCTORS but once on the track realized it was dangerous for him to be out there. He struggled all year long and I don’t think finished the year. I also believe it was his last year. Tony Romo had the Cowboy Dr’s give him pain shots and clear him to go back into a game when he had a broken rib puncturing his lung. He’s lucky he didn’t die. Sorry if some of us sometimes question doctors but there are millions of examples of doctors having the wrong “opinion”.
No doubt some dirt bike racers are or will suffer from CTE. Look at Dave Mira in the BMX world. You can’t tell me BMX’rs hit...
No doubt some dirt bike racers are or will suffer from CTE. Look at Dave Mira in the BMX world. You can’t tell me BMX’rs hit their head harder or more often then these racers. Just like in peewee football, most racers have suffered their first concussion by age 10.
Helmets have come a long ways since my racing days atleast.
It's the small repetitive hits that lead to CTE, not the big single ones.
No doubt some dirt bike racers are or will suffer from CTE. Look at Dave Mira in the BMX world. You can’t tell me BMX’rs hit...
No doubt some dirt bike racers are or will suffer from CTE. Look at Dave Mira in the BMX world. You can’t tell me BMX’rs hit their head harder or more often then these racers. Just like in peewee football, most racers have suffered their first concussion by age 10.
Helmets have come a long ways since my racing days atleast.
As a Rugby fan who has been watching concussion protocols evolve in that sport over the last couple of decades I can't help but feel that the current AMA protocols are inadequate. There are clear instances of riders copping massive blows to the head, stumbling around the track with no idea what year it is or who they are. 9 times out of 10 they're lining up to race the next week. In most other sports that would be automatic stand-down for 2+ weeks. It's a scary proposition as the long term effects become more known, in Rugby there are guys that won the world cup 20 years ago who can't even remember playing in the final. Latest research clearly says you can receive a concussion without being knocked out, don't know why some people are arguing this.
From the outside looking in I would also say it appears that there is a lot of pressure placed on these assessments due to the nature of an individual sport. With something like Rugby they can be more liberal in applying these stand-downs as you can easily swap a player, but in moto you will ruin a guys season with even 1 missed round let alone 2. You can bet that teams, managers, and riders will say and do whatever they have to in order to line up asap. Something needs to change.
No doubt some dirt bike racers are or will suffer from CTE. Look at Dave Mira in the BMX world. You can’t tell me BMX’rs hit...
No doubt some dirt bike racers are or will suffer from CTE. Look at Dave Mira in the BMX world. You can’t tell me BMX’rs hit their head harder or more often then these racers. Just like in peewee football, most racers have suffered their first concussion by age 10.
Helmets have come a long ways since my racing days atleast.
I don't know about harder, but a freestyle bmx rider definitely crashes more often than mx. They crash multiple times in a one minute run.
Another thread about concussions. Does anyone know what the protocol is? Do you have concerns a rider didn't pass the protocol somehow? Are you a neurologist that examined someone who was cleared? If not, let them race if they are cleared and stop all the couch diagnoses of something we know nothing about. I have had a number of concussions and understand in great detail the issues that come with them, but I also trust the Asterisk guys and so does every rider I have talked to about it.
Definitely NOT out of hand discussion. You literally said people can't voice their opinion...That's what this forum is for "Opinions". No one is taking medical advice...
Definitely NOT out of hand discussion. You literally said people can't voice their opinion...That's what this forum is for "Opinions". No one is taking medical advice here. Most of this post became a personal experiences list which is awesome.
I asked the Original question because the guys that have hit their head pretty good lately have been going down repeatedly after it.. Sexton and RJ mainly.
Nope didn’t say anything about people can’t voice their opinion…I said many opinions are without knowledge or understanding of the protocols…in most of the threads on...
Nope didn’t say anything about people can’t voice their opinion…I said many opinions are without knowledge or understanding of the protocols…in most of the threads on this topic there are people claiming that so and so rider is concussed because they saw it on TV and that there is somehow Dr’s being bought off so these riders can ride…that’s what is out of hand…
I’ll start by saying I’m not a doctor lol. But I diagnosed many times a broken leg by what I saw on TV. How did I...
I’ll start by saying I’m not a doctor lol. But I diagnosed many times a broken leg by what I saw on TV. How did I do this?? The leg was bent in a direction legs don’t bend. Similarly when I see a rider hit his head and is stumbling around, I know he has a concussion. I only can’t tell the severity. That’s because if you get hit in the head hard enough to be ko’d or wobbly then you have a concussion. Same way that bend in the leg means it’s broken. You can get a concussion and never even be wobbly. But You can’t get ko’d and not have a concussion. And just for the record, doctors are people who often times are giving their opinions. Many times doctors are wrong and wise people say get a second OPINION. I can’t tell you how many times i or people I know (and I’m sure you too) dealt with a doctor who was wrong in his diagnosis. We still need doctors but don’t act like they are never wrong or that they always do what’s right. A decent amount of the diagnosis will rely on the athlete telling the truth about how he feels. No athlete would ever lie about their symptoms would they? Lol! Stewart in 2016 was cleared to ride by DOCTORS but once on the track realized it was dangerous for him to be out there. He struggled all year long and I don’t think finished the year. I also believe it was his last year. Tony Romo had the Cowboy Dr’s give him pain shots and clear him to go back into a game when he had a broken rib puncturing his lung. He’s lucky he didn’t die. Sorry if some of us sometimes question doctors but there are millions of examples of doctors having the wrong “opinion”.
First of all to compare a broken bone to a concussion or suspected concussion is laughable…it’s pretty easy to see something pointing in the wrong direction and have a pretty good idea of what it is from your TV screen, we’ve all done that and have seen many examples in sports…when a rider crashes and doesn’t move for a moment doesn’t mean he’s unconscious…I’ve laid their many times trying to catch my breath and evaluate my body without ever being knocked out or suffering a concussion but I could see how from your TV screen you could get the two confused…And for the record I’m going to take the doctors opinion every time over a television viewer…I never said that a doctor couldn’t be wrong but if you listened to the podcast you would know that multiple Dr’s are reviewing the results and coming to a conclusion in each instance through the protocol…It’s not about how the rider says he feels but how he passes multiple tests through multiple doctors before they are allowed to race….the current protocols weren’t in place 2016 so what happened to James aren’t comparable…the Romo example could only be used if each race team had a team Dr…again the concussion protocols are very different then they were when Romo played to what they are now…and as time goes on knowledge is gained I’m sure the protocols will also change….end of the day I will always side with a doctor that is an expert in the field over any fool that has an opinion because he saw it on tv…
I think Bogle has pulled out of races on account of not being recovered from a prior concussion, and JS7 in 2016 after the A1 crash, anyone else come to mind recently?
I once had a rider in another country that had hit his face/head into the face of a jump so hard that he had all these blown-out blood vessels in his eyes…the doctor at the ER understood why I wanted a specialist/neurologist or someone with real expertise in these situations to “decide” if/when he should fly home.
This shit is scary; but, we’re slowly starting to figure some of it out.
The NFL concussion protocol has undergone a few changes in its long history. I tried to find out how many diagnosed concussions there were and it looks like 224 in 2019 to give some context to other organizations who have concussion protocols that get used. (I believe that includes preseason practice).
https://racerxonline.com/2021/12/15/exhaust-podcast-concussions-in-moto…
The Shop
That said, brain injury is notoriously difficut to diagnose (moreso with a patient intentionally avoiding diagnosis) and a determined athlete can probably pass many diagnostic protocols.
Until medical technology advances, I think all you are going to ultimately have in most sports is what we currently have: a good faith effort to weed out the guys who are obviously struggling with basic balance/cognition and expectations that athletes self-assess their readiness in other cases. Maybe throw in some athlete education on long-term outcomes so they can make better decisions, especially in cases where there is little to gain by pushing their recovery timelines.
I'm sure the people being paid to make sure the riders are okay and race-ready, as well as the people being paid to make the rules and protocols, know more than people on Vital about what's best.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amasup…
Here's the 2022 CBA for the NFL where it specifically addresses a few key "no-go" signs: (https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/NFLPA/CBA2020/NFL-…)
2. Game Day Symptoms/Return to Play
a. “No-Go” Signs and Symptoms. If a player exhibits or reports any of
the following signs or symptoms of concussion, he must be removed
immediately from the field of play and transported to the locker room.
If a neutral sideline observer or a member of the player’s club’s medical
team observes a player exhibit or receives a report that a player has
experienced any of the following signs or symptoms, the player shall be
considered to have suffered a concussion and may not return to
participation (practice or play) on the same day under any
circumstances:
i. Loss of Consciousness (including Impact Seizure and/or “fencing posture”)
ii. Gross Motor Instability (GMI), identified in the judgment of
the club medical staff in consultation with the Sideline UNC,
who observe the player’s behavior, have access to the player’s
relevant history and are able to rule out an orthopedic cause for
any observed instability
iii. Confusion
iv. Amnesia
I asked the Original question because the guys that have hit their head pretty good lately have been going down repeatedly after it.. Sexton and RJ mainly.
Pit Row
I think the A* crew is taking this topic very seriously and doing a lot more than many people realize. I don't think we have enough information about the rider simply after seeing a crash to armchair any decisions on if they are doing enough or not to address concussions.
This episode is specifically about helmets, and evidence based rehab and testing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QMbHVDh6FU&ab_channel=CompleteConcussi…
Helmets have come a long ways since my racing days atleast.
From the outside looking in I would also say it appears that there is a lot of pressure placed on these assessments due to the nature of an individual sport. With something like Rugby they can be more liberal in applying these stand-downs as you can easily swap a player, but in moto you will ruin a guys season with even 1 missed round let alone 2. You can bet that teams, managers, and riders will say and do whatever they have to in order to line up asap. Something needs to change.
Post a reply to: Concussion Protocol changes?