How hard do you brake?

151
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 3:53pm
I have been noticing lately that even though I am a good bit faster than ever, I no longer burn up the brakes like I did as a kid.

On 80s it was normal for me to lift the rear wheel when braking, for certain corners of course.

Now I seem to brake as little as possible. So if looking for quicker laps, is braking later and harder one of the answers?

Literally later and harder, as in, instead of a smooth 1.5 second ride of the brakes, would overall average speed through a corner be higher by staying on the gas half a second longer and then braking as hard as possible for half a second?
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EvanR127
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4/12/2011 8:13pm
In theory... staying on the gas longer, braking later, and getting on the gas as soon as possible is the fastest way around the track. But in turn tires you out faster and maybe increases your chance of crashing.
T-Fish
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Fantasy
4/12/2011 8:16pm
With my pathetic speed, I don't need brakes.
bama205
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4/12/2011 8:27pm
try braking earlier, then rolling on the throttle harder and harder as you come in, go around, and exit the corner.
jackson222
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4/12/2011 8:33pm
In my opinion its all about carrying momentum into and through corners. If your braking heavily before the corner and then pinning it out of the corner your just wasting energy and not really gaining any time, better off to carry your speed around the track.

The Shop

PaleBlue
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4/13/2011 12:32am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 12:36am
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Yep boys - you just keep rolling round the track! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Fast riders are either accelerating or braking, both into corners and the faces of jumps. If your discs aren't really hot at the end of your track time you aren't going fast enough. And YES, it IS tireing, which is why MX is such a phyically demanding sport.Smile
4/13/2011 12:57am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 12:57am
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree with jackson222, it's about how much momentum you can carry. The faster you are able to corner - the less you have to slow down. That's the real difference between pro's and amateurs... pro's don't slow down as much.
PaleBlue
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4/13/2011 1:09am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 1:11am
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree...
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree with jackson222, it's about how much momentum you can carry. The faster you are able to corner - the less you have to slow down. That's the real difference between pro's and amateurs... pro's don't slow down as much.
You're almost right! Carrying corner speed is vital. The faster you get round a corner the faster your lap. However, brakeing hard into the corner enables you to be going faster TO the corner - where you can still carry as much speed as you are able round. Being at the right corner speed BEFORE being in the corner is just losing time.
4/13/2011 1:22am
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree...
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree with jackson222, it's about how much momentum you can carry. The faster you are able to corner - the less you have to slow down. That's the real difference between pro's and amateurs... pro's don't slow down as much.
PaleBlue wrote:
You're almost right! Carrying corner speed is vital. The faster you get round a corner the faster your lap. However, brakeing hard into the corner enables...
You're almost right! Carrying corner speed is vital. The faster you get round a corner the faster your lap. However, brakeing hard into the corner enables you to be going faster TO the corner - where you can still carry as much speed as you are able round. Being at the right corner speed BEFORE being in the corner is just losing time.
Good point.
AUS_Twisted
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4/13/2011 3:51am
PaleBlue wrote:
You're almost right! Carrying corner speed is vital. The faster you get round a corner the faster your lap. However, brakeing hard into the corner enables...
You're almost right! Carrying corner speed is vital. The faster you get round a corner the faster your lap. However, brakeing hard into the corner enables you to be going faster TO the corner - where you can still carry as much speed as you are able round. Being at the right corner speed BEFORE being in the corner is just losing time.
Yep this is the technique you see used for sharp turns after a long straight in SX where you can brake really hard at the last second with the rear end sliding into the turn setting up for the corner, I love these straights and corners as often they end up in drag races and out braking contests which makes good racing.
151
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4/13/2011 5:33am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 6:13am
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well.

Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit speeds are the same, is it better to use a longer yet smoother braking style that (for example) slows the bike from 25mph to 12 mph in two seconds,

or

a more aggressive braking style that slows the bike from 25 to 12 in half a second?

The LB quote is interesting, because I was started thinking about this by a RC quote that the only reason he couldnt go faster was because his brakes were not strong enough, or something like that.
jtiger12
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4/13/2011 6:08am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 6:09am
"Ricky is a front brake fanatic," says Gosselaar, "You will see me on the start sometimes, before the parade lap, changing his front brake lever, and after the parade lap I might change it again before the parade lap. He never stops monkeying with the front brake."

Gosselaar says RC has his program so refined, that having a better front brake is his key to going faster. For that reason Suzuki has spared no expense to get RC the trickest Nissin works caliper and hardware on the front. As far as brakes, the only thing stock on RC's front end is the brake line.

According to Gosselaar, RC always says "'If I had a front brake that worked better than what I have I can go faster.'"

"His front brake is the key," continues Goose. "He's like a road race guy now. He says 'I can only go as fast as my front brake will let me.'"

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/295/1387/Motorcycle-Article/Behind-Ricky-…
mxcrf34
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4/13/2011 6:49am
151 wrote:
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well. Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit...
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well.

Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit speeds are the same, is it better to use a longer yet smoother braking style that (for example) slows the bike from 25mph to 12 mph in two seconds,

or

a more aggressive braking style that slows the bike from 25 to 12 in half a second?

The LB quote is interesting, because I was started thinking about this by a RC quote that the only reason he couldnt go faster was because his brakes were not strong enough, or something like that.
I think it would be better to brake harder and later. The longer you are on the brakes, thats less time you are driving forward and making up time on some one. RC's obsession with the front brake works for him. But you arent always going to use the front brake hard in every scenario.
DDub8
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4/13/2011 6:59am
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree...
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree with jackson222, it's about how much momentum you can carry. The faster you are able to corner - the less you have to slow down. That's the real difference between pro's and amateurs... pro's don't slow down as much.
That's nothing. I could probably get 2 or 3 full seasons on one set of pads. My secret is in sitting down as much as possible and "cruising" the track... smoothly braking only when it's necessary like when you come back to the truck.
txmxer
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4/13/2011 7:02am
151 wrote:
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well. Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit...
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well.

Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit speeds are the same, is it better to use a longer yet smoother braking style that (for example) slows the bike from 25mph to 12 mph in two seconds,

or

a more aggressive braking style that slows the bike from 25 to 12 in half a second?

The LB quote is interesting, because I was started thinking about this by a RC quote that the only reason he couldnt go faster was because his brakes were not strong enough, or something like that.
What you describe is perfect technique and in that scenario, the more aggressive style will always win.

Most of us are spodes and our technique sucks. We can go fast and brake really hard and late, but we end up over braking and thus not carrying the max speed through the turn. Basically, we accelerate, stop, turn, accelerate. Speed comes when you can go fast to the last possible second, brake late and only as much as necessary to make the turn, thus carrying the maximum momentum.

If you are braking more smoothly now and for longer time, then you were obviously doing point and shoot turns in the past and they were slower.
davis224
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Fantasy
4/13/2011 7:10am
Different riding styles require different braking styles.
Kryan5
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4/13/2011 7:10am
noob, yes i know... This is a tricky question. There is no right or wrong way because it depends on to many other things ie. corner design, ruts, berms, traction in, traction out, braking bumps. etc. Getting in slower will be faster if you can't hammer the throttle after braking hard because on a slick surface your wheel speed change won't be so abrupt that it will cause you to loose traction. Your momentum would be more important.... unless you have traction control. I really don't need to go through all the different scenarios, but just think about all the variables i listed above and how different cornering techniques would be best for them. ie braking bumps+hot and fast+backend flaping all over= slow corner. big berm+hot and fast+traction on exit=damn fast corner. And thats my first post!
Camp332
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4/13/2011 8:10am
Oh ssthtop it, guys...
Nutty C
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4/13/2011 10:33am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 10:34am
Track determines how hard you can front brake. If the entrance is all beat to shit you feather things. Over all hard braking into hairpins . Sweepers I would say no front brake. When I was being taught by a club coach he beat us with the front brake but we always practiced on a hard clay fields with tight corners and no burms. Every corner is different and requires a different approach. Over braking will kill lap times and tire you out.
PaleBlue
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4/13/2011 11:24am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 11:25am
151 wrote:
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well. Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit...
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well.

Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit speeds are the same, is it better to use a longer yet smoother braking style that (for example) slows the bike from 25mph to 12 mph in two seconds,

or

a more aggressive braking style that slows the bike from 25 to 12 in half a second?

The LB quote is interesting, because I was started thinking about this by a RC quote that the only reason he couldnt go faster was because his brakes were not strong enough, or something like that.
txmxer wrote:
What you describe is perfect technique and in that scenario, the more aggressive style will always win. Most of us are spodes and our technique sucks...
What you describe is perfect technique and in that scenario, the more aggressive style will always win.

Most of us are spodes and our technique sucks. We can go fast and brake really hard and late, but we end up over braking and thus not carrying the max speed through the turn. Basically, we accelerate, stop, turn, accelerate. Speed comes when you can go fast to the last possible second, brake late and only as much as necessary to make the turn, thus carrying the maximum momentum.

If you are braking more smoothly now and for longer time, then you were obviously doing point and shoot turns in the past and they were slower.
TMXER ,the first sentence is spot-on. Always work towards perfect technique - anything else is a (slower) compromise.
bobby397
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4/13/2011 12:05pm
"75% on the front and 25% on the rear." -Gary bailey. Four strokes are alittle different since you can flow thur the turn and isn't so stop and go like the two stroke.
Old Mate
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4/13/2011 2:00pm
Momentem is the key,unless its a stop go corner,so many variables,eg flat or bumps, braking is often done to where you want to turn most,so as the front suspension is still compressing. If more turn is required the transition point can ad to less braking.Dragging the front brake thru ruts and even flat turns can also help you hold the line at times.
disbanded
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4/13/2011 2:10pm
Brake late, crash early.
Old Mate
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4/13/2011 3:47pm
Old Mate wrote:
Momentem is the key,unless its a stop go corner,so many variables,eg flat or bumps, braking is often done to where you want to turn most,so as...
Momentem is the key,unless its a stop go corner,so many variables,eg flat or bumps, braking is often done to where you want to turn most,so as the front suspension is still compressing. If more turn is required the transition point can ad to less braking.Dragging the front brake thru ruts and even flat turns can also help you hold the line at times.
Maybe some of you guys should come to Aus for a school,check out our web,lol. Realy id love to visit a few euro schools. Ilearnt a lot from Roger DeCoster when Matt was Dungeys team mate. Quote Rodger" did it feel smooth,if not it wasnt fast"
Cody24
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4/13/2011 5:01pm
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree...
LB once said that James only get's through one set of brake pads per SX season! Whether that's true or not who knows. But I agree with jackson222, it's about how much momentum you can carry. The faster you are able to corner - the less you have to slow down. That's the real difference between pro's and amateurs... pro's don't slow down as much.
PaleBlue wrote:
You're almost right! Carrying corner speed is vital. The faster you get round a corner the faster your lap. However, brakeing hard into the corner enables...
You're almost right! Carrying corner speed is vital. The faster you get round a corner the faster your lap. However, brakeing hard into the corner enables you to be going faster TO the corner - where you can still carry as much speed as you are able round. Being at the right corner speed BEFORE being in the corner is just losing time.
Good point.
Thats the difference between pro's and am's. It is far more difficult to go faster into the corner and still maintain your speed around the corner. Most people will either push deep into the corner and brake too much, or they won't go fast enough into the corner and they cannot regain the speed before the apex.
Void Main
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4/13/2011 5:09pm
I apply approximately 2.73 pounds of force to the lever at approximately 3.37 inches from the pivot point using my Digitus Me'dius.
Xracer
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4/13/2011 6:45pm
It's the 4-stroke, I'm guessin'. I haven't replaced brake pads in the 4-stroke era...the engine does a lot of that work for you. I recently picked up an old CR250 to play with and I was immediately caught off guard by how much I had to use the brakes.
smeg
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4/13/2011 7:05pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2011 7:07pm
151 wrote:
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well. Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit...
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well.

Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit speeds are the same, is it better to use a longer yet smoother braking style that (for example) slows the bike from 25mph to 12 mph in two seconds,

or

a more aggressive braking style that slows the bike from 25 to 12 in half a second?

The LB quote is interesting, because I was started thinking about this by a RC quote that the only reason he couldnt go faster was because his brakes were not strong enough, or something like that.
Hmmmmm....exactly how long have you raced??? Or do you race or just ride. The reason I asked is because from a racers point of view the question is kinda silly and I am amazed at some of these these people answered you seriously.............................

Esentialy what you are asking is....."Is it faster to start braking 70 feet from the turn or 10 feet from the turn, all else being equal"

You either need .....

1...to start racing more

2...go back and re-take basic math


....sorry, not trying to be an A-hole....it's just the answer is so obvious it makes the question
ludicrous............................................................................................"unless, of course it was rhetorical then my answer is yes."(Name the movie)
Cook441
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Fantasy
4/13/2011 8:18pm
I read an article that RC was a front brake finatic..he was always playing with it and demanding more from Goose...he apparently would come in talking about how he needs to be able to brake harder and essentially out brake the comp or something like that...was an interesting article as I didn't realize how much he focused on that one tool- Front Brake
151
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4/13/2011 8:34pm
151 wrote:
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well. Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit...
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well.

Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit speeds are the same, is it better to use a longer yet smoother braking style that (for example) slows the bike from 25mph to 12 mph in two seconds,

or

a more aggressive braking style that slows the bike from 25 to 12 in half a second?

The LB quote is interesting, because I was started thinking about this by a RC quote that the only reason he couldnt go faster was because his brakes were not strong enough, or something like that.
smeg wrote:
Hmmmmm....exactly how long have you raced??? Or do you race or just ride. The reason I asked is because from a racers point of view the...
Hmmmmm....exactly how long have you raced??? Or do you race or just ride. The reason I asked is because from a racers point of view the question is kinda silly and I am amazed at some of these these people answered you seriously.............................

Esentialy what you are asking is....."Is it faster to start braking 70 feet from the turn or 10 feet from the turn, all else being equal"

You either need .....

1...to start racing more

2...go back and re-take basic math


....sorry, not trying to be an A-hole....it's just the answer is so obvious it makes the question
ludicrous............................................................................................"unless, of course it was rhetorical then my answer is yes."(Name the movie)
No problem, its an honest post.

I ride open A in regional off road races and finishe fourth overall in my last HS. I do not race much MX but I ride much more mx than woods because it is better training.

Mathematically yes it is a stupid question. But I think were I misspoke, or maybe you misunderstood is the "all else being equal" part.

What I meant was not all else being equal, but more like including all variables and possibilities.

So what I am asking is with the infinite number of variables is it more often better to brake earlier and smoother, or is the obvious later and harder most often fastest.
Cook441
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Fantasy
4/13/2011 9:04pm
151 wrote:
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well. Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit...
I think a couple guys touched on what I was thinking that I did not really articulate well.

Assuming that my entrance and corner and exit speeds are the same, is it better to use a longer yet smoother braking style that (for example) slows the bike from 25mph to 12 mph in two seconds,

or

a more aggressive braking style that slows the bike from 25 to 12 in half a second?

The LB quote is interesting, because I was started thinking about this by a RC quote that the only reason he couldnt go faster was because his brakes were not strong enough, or something like that.
smeg wrote:
Hmmmmm....exactly how long have you raced??? Or do you race or just ride. The reason I asked is because from a racers point of view the...
Hmmmmm....exactly how long have you raced??? Or do you race or just ride. The reason I asked is because from a racers point of view the question is kinda silly and I am amazed at some of these these people answered you seriously.............................

Esentialy what you are asking is....."Is it faster to start braking 70 feet from the turn or 10 feet from the turn, all else being equal"

You either need .....

1...to start racing more

2...go back and re-take basic math


....sorry, not trying to be an A-hole....it's just the answer is so obvious it makes the question
ludicrous............................................................................................"unless, of course it was rhetorical then my answer is yes."(Name the movie)
151 wrote:
No problem, its an honest post. I ride open A in regional off road races and finishe fourth overall in my last HS. I do not...
No problem, its an honest post.

I ride open A in regional off road races and finishe fourth overall in my last HS. I do not race much MX but I ride much more mx than woods because it is better training.

Mathematically yes it is a stupid question. But I think were I misspoke, or maybe you misunderstood is the "all else being equal" part.

What I meant was not all else being equal, but more like including all variables and possibilities.

So what I am asking is with the infinite number of variables is it more often better to brake earlier and smoother, or is the obvious later and harder most often fastest.
the later you brake and still make the corner while keeping control and exit speed up the more tenths you'll shave...watch CR, JS, RV etc come from behind. They do it all the time they out brake the other ridersn often and you can see it when they gain on guys entering the turn...trails can be a different beast flow, and standiing are much more important on trailsespecially on tight stuff-IMO

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