Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes

hellion
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1/18/2011 6:17am
motogrady wrote:
Don't think for a minute the big 4 wouldn't pull the plug if they don't get their way. Honda left dirttrack racing when the rules were...

Don't think for a minute the big 4 wouldn't pull the plug if they don't get their way.

Honda left dirttrack racing when the rules were changed to help the Harleys.
They left F1 when they took that ride to a level even they couldn't afford.
They left AMA roadracing when DMG took over and they didn't like the rules.

And every time they did it was adios m/f, we're off, carry on as you wish.

Why support this arrogance?
I fail to see why it's so important for the "big 4" (it's 5 now if you are counting) to be around. The top riders still need to ride to make a living as I'm sure the supposed home schooling they did did't set them up for a lucrative career elsewhere. All the accessory companies still need to sell product and thus sponsor racers to get the word out. Same with the drink companies, casinos, Nascar operations, mail order businesses etc.
Much of the money involved now comes from the outside anyway and the technical knowhow can easily be handled by the aftermarket in the wake of the OEM's departure. It's not arrogant to think we can't survive without them, it's arrogant for them to think they can survive without us.
RaceFace
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1/18/2011 6:32am
hellion wrote:
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy...
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.

On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.

Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.

I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.

I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.

I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.
How much does the James Stewart of ATV racing make a year?

If the manufacturers pulled out completely, any idea how much of the support (salaries)would go with it?
hellion
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1/18/2011 6:36am
ATV racing? Apples and oranges, not even, apples and raisins.
themrtoad
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1/18/2011 6:41am
Great sentence there Hellion "It's not arrogant to think we can't survive without them, it's arrogant for them to think they can survive without us"

That goes for both the big4 (or 5) and YS and MXsports.

The Shop

RaceFace
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1/18/2011 6:47am
motogrady wrote:
Don't think for a minute the big 4 wouldn't pull the plug if they don't get their way. Honda left dirttrack racing when the rules were...

Don't think for a minute the big 4 wouldn't pull the plug if they don't get their way.

Honda left dirttrack racing when the rules were changed to help the Harleys.
They left F1 when they took that ride to a level even they couldn't afford.
They left AMA roadracing when DMG took over and they didn't like the rules.

And every time they did it was adios m/f, we're off, carry on as you wish.

Why support this arrogance?
hellion wrote:
I fail to see why it's so important for the "big 4" (it's 5 now if you are counting) to be around. The top riders still...
I fail to see why it's so important for the "big 4" (it's 5 now if you are counting) to be around. The top riders still need to ride to make a living as I'm sure the supposed home schooling they did did't set them up for a lucrative career elsewhere. All the accessory companies still need to sell product and thus sponsor racers to get the word out. Same with the drink companies, casinos, Nascar operations, mail order businesses etc.
Much of the money involved now comes from the outside anyway and the technical knowhow can easily be handled by the aftermarket in the wake of the OEM's departure. It's not arrogant to think we can't survive without them, it's arrogant for them to think they can survive without us.
I don't think he meant it was arrogant thinking on your part, I think he was talking about the arrogance of the manufacturers.

Still, a large portion of the money in the sport would go away if the manufacturers pulled out completely. What many don't think about, is that this could open a door for a new and competing series. How about a SX series held at NASCAR racetracks like Daytona does? How many other national caliber MX tracks exist out there that wouldn't mind holding a National series event for outdoors? All it would take is a promoter with some money to get it rolling. The manufacturers could decide to put their backing behind a new series which would give it instant credibility. Contracted riders would have to ride the new series. Probable? No. Possible? Yes. A few years ago we almost had 2 competing SX series and the manufacturers were undecided as to which to support before it got hashed out. We see labor disputes all the time in other sports......strikes, holdouts, lockouts.... MX/SX is getting to that point of moving into that big league arena, money-wise. If the manufacturers ever decided to pull out over differences of opinion, they could plan it ahead and could take their sponsorship packages with them as well. There is too much money involved in MX/SX for them to just pull out and go home.


DC
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1/18/2011 7:03am
I have a difference of opinion here, not only on what changing the rule would do on the ground at the races, but also what a disaster it would be to just run the OEMs off like we 've seen happen in other forms of racing, so that means I don't care about grassroots racing? Themtroad, have you ever been to one of our amateur races? The arrogant thinking on this matter is thinking that you will really show the four-stroke manufacturers up by cutting the nose of all pro riders (and future pros) to show them you prefer two-strokes.

There were no two-strokes at Anaheim or Phoenix, yet the races were packed, they were featured on live TV, they have more sponsors than ever, and this all happened in a terrible economy that probably has much more to do with lower bike sales than four-strokes have.

I am trying to hep your cause here as best as I can, but because I don't see it in the same terms or from the same perspective, I am somehow out of touch? Arrogant? Maybe you should just go buy the bike you want and race the bike you want and send your message that way because this one isn't having the effect you probably want.

DC
MX Sports
1/18/2011 7:10am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2011 7:12am
Bike prices, from online sources & bike brochures:



1973 Honda CR125; .......$895.00

1983 Honda CR125; .....$1738.00

2093 Honda CR125; .....$3799.00

2010 Honda CRF250; ...$7199.00



National Average Wage Index (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html)



1973: .....$7,580

1983: ...$15,239

1993: ...$23,132

2009: ...$40,711 (no data for 2010 yet)



Ratio of Average Wage and Cost of CR125/250f



1973: ..... 11.8%

1983: ..... 11.4%

1993: ..... 16.4%

2009: ..... 17.6%



The base cost of owning a bike has increased by 5.8% from 1973 to 2009. Combine that with other variable expenses, such as broadband, mobile phone, xbox & games, ect, and you begin to see why there are fewer people participating in the sport, and more people *watching* from home.



So the raw numbers shows that the cost of owning a bike (not including hop-up and replacement parts, gate fees, gas, ect) has increased by almost 50% in the past 30 years.
kaboom645
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1/18/2011 7:13am
RaceFace wrote:
How much does the James Stewart of ATV racing make a year? If the manufacturers pulled out completely, any idea how much of the support (salaries)would...
How much does the James Stewart of ATV racing make a year?

If the manufacturers pulled out completely, any idea how much of the support (salaries)would go with it?
I dont know about now, but in the very early 90's Mark Eardhart(sp) who was a top quad guy at the time, was quoted in a mag saying he made 60K in salary (not including win bonuses) from CT racing when he rode for their team. I do believe Mcgrath signed with pro circuit for 30k in the same time period. Jimmy button said he only made 120k at team yamaha in 99 so its safe to assume that the salaries are pretty close.
hellion
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1/18/2011 7:23am
The fact that DC is still paying attention to this thread speaks a lot about the mans character. He truly wants whats best for racing. Some of us just think it would be better if the playing field were leveled (250 cc = 250cc f or two stroke), and or, a 125 class were included on the national schedule.
The two stroke thing is gathering momentum. It is the topic of many editorials in the major magazines, and often a topic of conversation on the moto based radio shows and pod casts.
In the end we the consumer will need to speak with out wallets. Then the argument will come full circle and two stroke will not be able to be pushed to the backburner.
It sure would be nice though, if Davey were to get a read on what is happening at the grass roots level and do something that could really help it along.
RaceFace
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1/18/2011 7:28am
Bike prices, from online sources & bike brochures: 1973 Honda CR125; .......$895.00 1983 Honda CR125; .....$1738.00 2093 Honda CR125; .....$3799.00 2010 Honda CRF250; ...$7199.00 National Average...
Bike prices, from online sources & bike brochures:



1973 Honda CR125; .......$895.00

1983 Honda CR125; .....$1738.00

2093 Honda CR125; .....$3799.00

2010 Honda CRF250; ...$7199.00



National Average Wage Index (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html)



1973: .....$7,580

1983: ...$15,239

1993: ...$23,132

2009: ...$40,711 (no data for 2010 yet)



Ratio of Average Wage and Cost of CR125/250f



1973: ..... 11.8%

1983: ..... 11.4%

1993: ..... 16.4%

2009: ..... 17.6%



The base cost of owning a bike has increased by 5.8% from 1973 to 2009. Combine that with other variable expenses, such as broadband, mobile phone, xbox & games, ect, and you begin to see why there are fewer people participating in the sport, and more people *watching* from home.



So the raw numbers shows that the cost of owning a bike (not including hop-up and replacement parts, gate fees, gas, ect) has increased by almost 50% in the past 30 years.
Those are interesting figures, but point out that the base cost has only increased 1.4% in the past 16 years (from 2009). A $3,400 increase over 16 years only averages out to a a little over a $200 a year increase. How many complete design changes has the CR/CRF gone through in 16 years? All that R&D and engineering costs a lot of money. I'm actually surprised today's bikes don't cost way more than they do, especially factoring in the relationship between the dollar and the yen.

I think factors like fuel costs and other costs associated with racing are a huge factor as well in the decreased attendance at amateur events. I'm guessing the economy is the only factor that has effected street bike sales in a similar fashion as dirt bike sales.
DC
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1/18/2011 7:33am
Hellion, I do have a read on the grassroots level and in my area it's about ten percent two-strokes, tops. I just don't see the groundswell of support at our local level because there aren't enough two strokes out there on the showroom floors. Is it because they've all been bought or because they just aren't enough left to sell? Maybe some of the dealers in this thread could better answer that. In the meantime, in the pro pits, among privateers and factory guys alike, I don't hear much about people wanting to ride two-strokes, only right here on this board. It's not what you want to hear, but it's what I hear at the races.

DC
MX Sports
RaceFace
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1/18/2011 7:44am
My belief is that if 2-strokes became popular again (read that as large sales figure) you'd see the government getting right back involved and pushing to get rid of them. I think that is why the manufacturers are hesitant to have a desire to go 2-stroke again. I think they see that if they were to do massive re-tooling and develop 2-strokes again it could result in government environmental focus again. The government was the impetus for them going 4-stroke. I don't think they had any desire to move in that direction before the government started aiming the cross-hairs on 2-stroke dirt bikes. They do not wish to have that happen again.
newmann
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1/18/2011 8:02am
DC wrote:
Hellion, I do have a read on the grassroots level and in my area it's about ten percent two-strokes, tops. I just don't see the groundswell...
Hellion, I do have a read on the grassroots level and in my area it's about ten percent two-strokes, tops. I just don't see the groundswell of support at our local level because there aren't enough two strokes out there on the showroom floors. Is it because they've all been bought or because they just aren't enough left to sell? Maybe some of the dealers in this thread could better answer that. In the meantime, in the pro pits, among privateers and factory guys alike, I don't hear much about people wanting to ride two-strokes, only right here on this board. It's not what you want to hear, but it's what I hear at the races.

DC
MX Sports
While I'm as big a 2 stroke fan as there is, the displacement advantages really screwed the pooch. I don't see any easy answer to "level" that playing field. What I do see as an easy deal would be to bring back the 125's. I'm sure you would agree that a 125 2 stroke and a 250 4 stroke are so far apart that they shouldn't even be considered as equals. Kids coming off 85's going to 250's wasn't a good idea ten years ago and still isn't today. 125's have been a big part of this sport here in the US and have always provided some of the best racing at somewhat of an affordable cost. If you helped bring them back to the professional level, I would bet they would make a strong comeback at the local level. Not to mention that would help "condition" them to the increased costs of running a 250F when they move up.

125 outdoor nationals for six rounds or just a couple exhibition races with 125's, count me in. Can't say I would agree with having supermini's and full sized bikes on the track together, but if it would eventually lead to a true to life 125 class, I'll take what we can get. Just bring back the 125's.
mooch
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Fantasy
1/18/2011 8:04am
Hey , with this being one of the more "cordial" 2 stroke threads which has provided some good feedback from a number of folks...please send it to the HOF forum if and when it becomes less active.
FreshTopEnd
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1/18/2011 8:09am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2011 8:11am
The historical cost data people are using here is misleading if it's supposed to make the point that modern bike/four stroke is what's driven those costs. At least as to the Japanese bike, you have to consider what's happened to the yen and the dollar over the years. The yen was drastically cheaper against the dollar then.







01/73 yen/dollar = 301/1

01//83 yen/dollar = 232/1

01//93 yen/dollar = 125/1

01//03 yen/dollar = 118/1

01//11 yen/dollar = 82/1



The issue with concern over the Japanese OEM's walking is them walking now. The sport at the pro level still depends on their money. It hasn't yet bridged to stronger outside sponsorship that would allow all major team to operate privately with less direct relationships with the OEM's. I think it's fair to say that MXSports has been stabilizing the patient in the last couple years after a collapse by the AMA failing to get series sponsors and good TV that teams could leverage into self supporting sponsorships. Teams and riders were walking before the economy collapsed. That's the environment in which MXSports committed to the series.



I think it would be great if someday, hopefully soon, the break with the OEMs could be made and (assuming they still make MX bikes) teams could run whatever they want that makes sense, and the rules could be maximized to that end (which still wouldn't compel OEMs to make two strokes). That's not feasible now unless you want to radically down grade outdoor pro racing.

hellion
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1/18/2011 8:10am
Davey, we could go round' and round' on this forever I guess. And there is no known answer. The arguments have been made though that the reason there are so many fourstrokes at the races is because they are given a twice the displacement advantage. Here in New England they allow 250 two strokes in the 250f class and many already are riding the two stroke and more every day. In the 450 class, a 250 is not competitive. And in the 125 class, oh wait, there is no 125 class. Yes, that's right. you can ride a 125 in the 250 class but who would. So,again, some 90 pound 13 year olds choose to ride 40 horsepower 220 pound 250f's. It's just wrong.
jmar
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1/18/2011 8:18am
DC wrote:
Hellion, I do have a read on the grassroots level and in my area it's about ten percent two-strokes, tops. I just don't see the groundswell...
Hellion, I do have a read on the grassroots level and in my area it's about ten percent two-strokes, tops. I just don't see the groundswell of support at our local level because there aren't enough two strokes out there on the showroom floors. Is it because they've all been bought or because they just aren't enough left to sell? Maybe some of the dealers in this thread could better answer that. In the meantime, in the pro pits, among privateers and factory guys alike, I don't hear much about people wanting to ride two-strokes, only right here on this board. It's not what you want to hear, but it's what I hear at the races.

DC
MX Sports
in the pro pits, among privateers and factory guys alike, I don't hear much about people wanting to ride two-strokes, only right here on this board.

Bingo.
burn1986
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1/18/2011 8:26am
hellion wrote:
Davey, we could go round' and round' on this forever I guess. And there is no known answer. The arguments have been made though that the...
Davey, we could go round' and round' on this forever I guess. And there is no known answer. The arguments have been made though that the reason there are so many fourstrokes at the races is because they are given a twice the displacement advantage. Here in New England they allow 250 two strokes in the 250f class and many already are riding the two stroke and more every day. In the 450 class, a 250 is not competitive. And in the 125 class, oh wait, there is no 125 class. Yes, that's right. you can ride a 125 in the 250 class but who would. So,again, some 90 pound 13 year olds choose to ride 40 horsepower 220 pound 250f's. It's just wrong.
Well, maybe we should ask DC what the answer to the 2-stroke problem is. The first question is: Are 2-stroke displacements fair right now?
1/18/2011 8:27am
The historical cost data people are using here is misleading if it's supposed to make the point that modern bike/four stroke is what's driven those costs...
The historical cost data people are using here is misleading if it's supposed to make the point that modern bike/four stroke is what's driven those costs. At least as to the Japanese bike, you have to consider what's happened to the yen and the dollar over the years. The yen was drastically cheaper against the dollar then.







01/73 yen/dollar = 301/1

01//83 yen/dollar = 232/1

01//93 yen/dollar = 125/1

01//03 yen/dollar = 118/1

01//11 yen/dollar = 82/1



The issue with concern over the Japanese OEM's walking is them walking now. The sport at the pro level still depends on their money. It hasn't yet bridged to stronger outside sponsorship that would allow all major team to operate privately with less direct relationships with the OEM's. I think it's fair to say that MXSports has been stabilizing the patient in the last couple years after a collapse by the AMA failing to get series sponsors and good TV that teams could leverage into self supporting sponsorships. Teams and riders were walking before the economy collapsed. That's the environment in which MXSports committed to the series.



I think it would be great if someday, hopefully soon, the break with the OEMs could be made and (assuming they still make MX bikes) teams could run whatever they want that makes sense, and the rules could be maximized to that end (which still wouldn't compel OEMs to make two strokes). That's not feasible now unless you want to radically down grade outdoor pro racing.

No agenda here.. Love me some pre-mix but those figures I posted a few minutes ago don't show that four strokes are directly responsible for the increased costs. Looks like costs have been increasing pretty steadily since the late 80s.

Just put the numbers out as food for thought...
FreshTopEnd
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1/18/2011 8:32am
Fair enough; the tendency is for people to fit facts to arguments, so it's good to have all the facts at that buffet.
burn1986
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1/18/2011 8:32am
Has anyone read the comments on the petition? Most of the comments tell the story of what is happening in the grass roots of MX - Cost of maintenance and racing are the number 1 comment out of about 3550 signatures.
FreshTopEnd
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1/18/2011 8:34am
hellion wrote:
Davey, we could go round' and round' on this forever I guess. And there is no known answer. The arguments have been made though that the...
Davey, we could go round' and round' on this forever I guess. And there is no known answer. The arguments have been made though that the reason there are so many fourstrokes at the races is because they are given a twice the displacement advantage. Here in New England they allow 250 two strokes in the 250f class and many already are riding the two stroke and more every day. In the 450 class, a 250 is not competitive. And in the 125 class, oh wait, there is no 125 class. Yes, that's right. you can ride a 125 in the 250 class but who would. So,again, some 90 pound 13 year olds choose to ride 40 horsepower 220 pound 250f's. It's just wrong.
burn1986 wrote:
Well, maybe we should ask DC what the answer to the 2-stroke problem is. The first question is: Are 2-stroke displacements fair right now?
I think DC just told you that in the pro pits the riders say there is no two stroke problem.
burn1986
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1/18/2011 8:37am Edited Date/Time 1/18/2011 8:41am
Obviously, since the 2-strokes are right where they want them.

Ok, we know DC's hands are tied. So who do we petition at the big 4? I believe that if a company or leaders are approached diplomatically over a period of time, then it is possible for a change. I guess the approach now is to begin contacting the big4. Can you believe that we have to begin asking a foreign country for permission to adjust our own rules, so they don't get mad?
RaceFace
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1/18/2011 8:43am
burn1986 wrote:
Obviously, since the 2-strokes are right where they want them. Ok, we know DC's hands are tied. So who do we petition at the big 4...
Obviously, since the 2-strokes are right where they want them.

Ok, we know DC's hands are tied. So who do we petition at the big 4? I believe that if a company or leaders are approached diplomatically over a period of time, then it is possible for a change. I guess the approach now is to begin contacting the big4. Can you believe that we have to begin asking a foreign country for permission to adjust our own rules, so they don't get mad?
Yes you can contact them.

Address them c/o your local dealer....and make sure you include a cashier's check when buying a 2-stroke.
burn1986
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1/18/2011 8:48am
Okay FTE, who are the best people to contact within the big 4?
FreshTopEnd
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1/18/2011 8:53am
This is supposed to be a capitalist country, right? Why is it so hard to believe businesses make market-driven decisions wherever they are located? And have the right to choose how to apply their resources or whether to expend them at all? Maybe the better question is can you believe we don't make a mass-market MX bike in America?

Tell dealers selling brands that don't make two strokes that you can't buy from them because they don't sell what you want. Hopefully you'll be able to walk him out to the parking lot to see the new KTM or Yamaha smoker (there's an 11 YZ250 being advertised below MSRP here in Sac) in your pickup. Writing letters to the OEM's without some proof they're losing sales seems like a tough row to hoe.

If you've ever read the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, one of the habits is "seek first to understand, then to be understood." The worst way to be persuasive is to assume people think the way you do and that they'll just get it if you express your opinion over and over.
FreshTopEnd
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1/18/2011 8:55am
burn1986 wrote:
Okay FTE, who are the best people to contact within the big 4?
Really? Give me a break. You figure that out.
hellion
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1/18/2011 9:03am
I just talked to a very good dealer here in New England that said he could have sold a dozen more 250SX's and a dozen more 150SX's if he could have gotten them. YZ 250's are pretty scarce around here too. Either the manufacturers aren't making enough or the tide is turning.
jmar
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1/18/2011 9:05am
Honest question here.

How many of you die hard two stroke guys have bought a new bike in the last two years?
FreshTopEnd
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1/18/2011 9:05am
It would be awesome to turn the tide. That's how it will happen.

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