Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes

mooch
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1/13/2011 1:34pm
gaines1016 wrote:
well i just wanted to clarify because it sounded like a claim that a lot of people are kept from starting the sport because of the...
well i just wanted to clarify because it sounded like a claim that a lot of people are kept from starting the sport because of the high initial cost of the 4 stroke and the reality when looking at this comparison the 2 stroke costs the same.

but now we are bringing resale value/maintenance/possible cost if you happen to blow a motor/etc. most of which can be debated as separate topics.

however i dont buy that dad could rebuild the whole 2 stroke motor but wont touch the 4 stroke motor argument. they are not that complicated and any guy who can handle a wrench well enough to get into a 2 stroke motor will most likely be able to dive right into a 4 stroke motor. he may just have to be sure to have a service manual handy Smile
...yep a manual and some deep pockets for all the cash needed to cover the various parts that will be thrashed. There's really no debate needed when it comes to the cost of a rebuild of any kind on a 4 stroke when compared to the antique 2 strokes.
FreshTopEnd
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1/13/2011 1:40pm
themrtoad wrote:
Ride them both for 60h and try to sell them. The twostroke will be gone quick, the fourstroke will be harder to get a fair amount...
Ride them both for 60h and try to sell them. The twostroke will be gone quick, the fourstroke will be harder to get a fair amount of money for. Lot's of riders are afraid to buy used 250f's because if they break the cost of repair is the same as what you bought it for.

That's when you decide you have to find a new hobby, and go tell the wifey there will be no holiday trips this year or next year. That's when she walks out of you, so fourstrokes pretty much destroys familys around the world...=) (I'm being ironic now!)
That's not a great pro mx racing argument; it's a great argument for what the majority of us have to cope with. But we can buy, ride and race smokers.

I love two strokes. If I buy another bike, it will almost certainly be a smoker. I won't be racing because I physically can't.

The best, most effective thing individuals can do to advance two strokes is to buy them from the OEMs that sell them and tell the dealers of other brands they aren't buying their bikes because they don't sell smokers. If the numbers add up, then more smokers will show up. If the numbers don't add up, then that's the only poll that matters.

Logic and a cup of coffee will get you a cup of coffee. Logic on either side of this issue is no solution for the issues with MX, such as they are. Almost all of them revolve around money, and specifically the lack of money to do everything that would satisfy everyone.

The two things I hope for most is that the OEM's keep making MX bikes and that at some point racing doesn't need the OEM's to keep it going beyond teams being able to get the basic bike. But it's not my dollar at stake promoting racing or making motorcycles. For me and everyone in the same position, talk is cheap and logic or the absence thereof is just entertainment on the boards.
gaines1016
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1/13/2011 1:43pm
mooch wrote:
...yep a manual and some deep pockets for all the cash needed to cover the various parts that will be thrashed. There's really no debate needed...
...yep a manual and some deep pockets for all the cash needed to cover the various parts that will be thrashed. There's really no debate needed when it comes to the cost of a rebuild of any kind on a 4 stroke when compared to the antique 2 strokes.
i believe the debate has already happened several times and from what i have garnered and experienced personally on the matter is that unless there is catastrophic failure the difference is not as much as is claimed by the 2stroke proponents.

but now you can claim that catastrophic engine failures happen all the time with 4 strokes.
kaboom645
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1/13/2011 1:47pm
Its all about money! For the last 5-6 years all I have heard is how all these outside sponsors are going to grow the sport, and make the racing better. Frankly, the only thing it has seemed to do is bring in the corprate greed that usually follows the money. MONEY doesnt grow a sport.. CORPORATE SPONSORS dont grow a sport. Increased motorcycle sales, and more end users grow this sport. The higher the cost goes to buy, and maintain a bike, the more people you price out of the sport. Rich people arent going to participate in a sport that can hurt them badly for long before they find something safer.

Its pretty obvious that DC will not implement a rule change since he is worried about his paycheck. He is worried that if he changes the rules, the MFG's will take their ball to another court to play.The MFG's done want the rules changed b/c in CC to CC racing, because their cash cow( 4 strokes) is no longer the superior machine. This doesnt sit well with their 5-10yr sales goals/plan.

Add to that that yamaha only allows dealers to order 1 possibly 2, 2 strokes per year(based on what my local dealer has told me)and you can see that the MFG's dont want them back.

Personally I dont care what the pro's ride, 2 or 4 stroke.. But I would like to see the rules be more even, and the 125 class make a comeback. I am competitive on my 2 stroke, and luckily, in local racing the rules allow for it to have a fair shake..

The Shop

themrtoad
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1/13/2011 1:48pm
hellion wrote:
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy...
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.

On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.

Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.

I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.

I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.

I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.
C'mon guys motocross today is a few "pros" of which many is close to bancrupt racing in front of fewer and fewer spectators on more and more expensive bikes. Can't you see something is weird here.

Some of the most high profile stars won't even bother to race outdoors. Their sponsors aren't interested of them getting hurt performing a sport that's getting smaller and smaller. They just want the attention from the stadiums and time on TV and I guess motocross teams sell themselfes for nothing compared to most other sports.

Maybe the OEM needs to realize that it's not the guys racing SX in stadiums that buy their bikes, it's normal people interested in an affordable hobby. Likewise I can understand that Dave feels bad if he makes decisions that make people in the paddock loose their job, but it's a small sacrifice for the bigger picture. What about all dealers that's having trouble? What about all the tracks shuting down because they don't have enough riders? Races being cancelled beacuse no riders turn up?

I love motocross. I've worked with it as a full time employee, and I'm running my own business since six years. I can't make a living on it and i see more and more of my clients turn their back on motocross because of the costs involved. And there aren't any new clients in line. Something needs to be changed quickly. We are in a downhill when it comes to active riders, and the sooner we make the change the better. The way the costs are up even on new twostrokes with little or no R & D at all I can't ever see motocross go back to being an sport for people with normal income.
ccoady454
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1/13/2011 2:00pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 2:01pm
I think the manuf's are afraid that if 2-strokes are given even the slightest CC increase (150 & 300) that it might not be enough to overcome, but future advances would allow it to surpass the 4-strokes. That's exactly what happened with the 4 strokes in the late 90's, except they were given a HUGE CC bump, because the manuf. knew they could easily close the gap with the sort of handicap. Oh, well....I would just like to see a sport out there with variety and excitement. It would be like a battle of offense and defense....two different types of bike, many types of riders, various lines. It would be a f-ing blast to watch, in my opinion. Hell, maybe the top pros would ride a 2stroke one day and a 4 the next based on track conditions.
DC
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1/13/2011 2:05pm
KaBoom, I don't make a paycheck at the nationals; I am in the magazine business. I work on the nationals because the nationals needed work, not because I needed paid.

MX Sports runs 250cc motorcycles together locally and at Loretta Lynn's for a variety of reasons, including to help keep costs down for amateurs. I have absolutely nothing against two-strokes, but I do have a problem with blowing up the series and running off factory teams and factory jobs like we've seen in other forms of racing when rules did not mesh with the products offered by the OEMs.

And Themtroad, the AMA Motocross Series had better attendance and a vastly bigger TV audience than it has ever had in 2010, which was a down year for the economy. Appreciate the doom-and-gloom scenario you painted, but like AMA Supercross, which also utilizes the AMA rulebook we've done a pretty good job in attracting fans and sponsors and getting our sport on TV while other forms of professional racing have struggled.

DC
MX Sports
themrtoad
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1/13/2011 2:10pm
themrtoad wrote:
Ride them both for 60h and try to sell them. The twostroke will be gone quick, the fourstroke will be harder to get a fair amount...
Ride them both for 60h and try to sell them. The twostroke will be gone quick, the fourstroke will be harder to get a fair amount of money for. Lot's of riders are afraid to buy used 250f's because if they break the cost of repair is the same as what you bought it for.

That's when you decide you have to find a new hobby, and go tell the wifey there will be no holiday trips this year or next year. That's when she walks out of you, so fourstrokes pretty much destroys familys around the world...=) (I'm being ironic now!)
That's not a great pro mx racing argument; it's a great argument for what the majority of us have to cope with. But we can buy...
That's not a great pro mx racing argument; it's a great argument for what the majority of us have to cope with. But we can buy, ride and race smokers.

I love two strokes. If I buy another bike, it will almost certainly be a smoker. I won't be racing because I physically can't.

The best, most effective thing individuals can do to advance two strokes is to buy them from the OEMs that sell them and tell the dealers of other brands they aren't buying their bikes because they don't sell smokers. If the numbers add up, then more smokers will show up. If the numbers don't add up, then that's the only poll that matters.

Logic and a cup of coffee will get you a cup of coffee. Logic on either side of this issue is no solution for the issues with MX, such as they are. Almost all of them revolve around money, and specifically the lack of money to do everything that would satisfy everyone.

The two things I hope for most is that the OEM's keep making MX bikes and that at some point racing doesn't need the OEM's to keep it going beyond teams being able to get the basic bike. But it's not my dollar at stake promoting racing or making motorcycles. For me and everyone in the same position, talk is cheap and logic or the absence thereof is just entertainment on the boards.
FTE I see what you are saying, and I understand more of all these points than what my english allows me to express.

My hope is that the professionell racing scene should to a big part be financed by companys who sell products related to racing. I know professionell fotball isn't financed by how many balls or shoes are sold, and just like that supercross isn't as depending on bike sales.

Motocross ( which lays closest to my heart) however is in a very dangerous position.
They race in order to sell bikes, but since there aren't enough bikes being sold you have the two promotors (YS and MX Sports) fighting over the same sponsors, riders, attention and money and trying to beat each other by making it even more and more expensive to take part, with less and less in return. Motocross have tried to polish ourselves and turn our sport into something it's not in order to get our amount of money and fame, Unfortunately it didn't turn out that well cause nobody was that interested. You could basically pull 10 big sponsors out of sponsring professionel motocross, and it would all fall together like a cardhouse(?) That says a lot of supply and demand, and I'm happy I choose to also get a full time job besides motocross to secure my familys economy.

It looks good in the paddock with big buses and fancy cars etc but it's really just around 20 riders worldwide making good money comparable to a really louzy football player in the second division in England. We hardly get any tv time and the real demand of the products they race to sell and promote is getting smaller all the time.
I also work with selling ads to a big motocross site in Sweden, guess what it doesn't work out very well since all companys are selling less and less equipment.
I know I take the risk of being called the most negative or depressing author here on Vital, but I think we are in trouble
DC
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1/13/2011 2:12pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 2:12pm
I am headed home and headed to Phoenix, which means I won't be defending my stance here anymore tonight, or trying to explain that I didn't write the four-stroke rule in the first place, and I can't change it by myself (nor do I think it's wise to do so now at the pro level given the investment the teams have already made over many years in changing to four-strokes). But I will keep trying to do my small part to improve the series and the sport, along with everyone else on here.



Anyone who wants to contact me directly can reach me at: DC@mxsports.com.



DC

MX Sports
FreshTopEnd
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1/13/2011 2:18pm
I think if you look at the history accurately, the rule was on the books for a long time that you could race an up to 550 four stroke against 250 strokes. This was a long time before Yamaha thought up the YZF400 Henry rode (the rule change then was to allow it to race regardless of the production rule). Hence, Husaberg and Husqvarna were active by at least the mid 90's, and KTM was running the LC4 big bores (an engine now several generations ago in KTM's line of development). I think Cooper and Dowd were running 540 KTM's in the nationals as late as 02 or 03. Then both the AMA and the FIM limited the class to 450 four strokes.

What's ironic is that the big four strokes were the privateers best friend in that class when they first came out, with YZ, and then the CRFs. Then Carmichael made the switch over to the 450 when he returned from his injury for the 04 nats. That about killed it, and the last act was Stewart's vain effort to compete on that nitro KX250 in 05. What's doubly ironic is that the pressure to allow the 250 smokers now in the 250f's is a variation of the "let the privateer benefit from it" argument.

The four stroke controversy was really heated over allowing the YZ250f with the 125's. Now it's a general fuss about the whole thing.
FreshTopEnd
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1/13/2011 2:23pm
themrtoad wrote:
FTE I see what you are saying, and I understand more of all these points than what my english allows me to express. My hope is...
FTE I see what you are saying, and I understand more of all these points than what my english allows me to express.

My hope is that the professionell racing scene should to a big part be financed by companys who sell products related to racing. I know professionell fotball isn't financed by how many balls or shoes are sold, and just like that supercross isn't as depending on bike sales.

Motocross ( which lays closest to my heart) however is in a very dangerous position.
They race in order to sell bikes, but since there aren't enough bikes being sold you have the two promotors (YS and MX Sports) fighting over the same sponsors, riders, attention and money and trying to beat each other by making it even more and more expensive to take part, with less and less in return. Motocross have tried to polish ourselves and turn our sport into something it's not in order to get our amount of money and fame, Unfortunately it didn't turn out that well cause nobody was that interested. You could basically pull 10 big sponsors out of sponsring professionel motocross, and it would all fall together like a cardhouse(?) That says a lot of supply and demand, and I'm happy I choose to also get a full time job besides motocross to secure my familys economy.

It looks good in the paddock with big buses and fancy cars etc but it's really just around 20 riders worldwide making good money comparable to a really louzy football player in the second division in England. We hardly get any tv time and the real demand of the products they race to sell and promote is getting smaller all the time.
I also work with selling ads to a big motocross site in Sweden, guess what it doesn't work out very well since all companys are selling less and less equipment.
I know I take the risk of being called the most negative or depressing author here on Vital, but I think we are in trouble
Brother, I love MX, too. We all love it here and want it to thrive even if we have different notions of where to strike the balance on different issues. The sport has been on a razor's edge for long before this economy sucker punched it. I hope people keep making dirt bikes and racing them.
Kurt
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1/13/2011 2:25pm
DC wrote:
KaBoom, I don't make a paycheck at the nationals; I am in the magazine business. I work on the nationals because the nationals needed work, not...
KaBoom, I don't make a paycheck at the nationals; I am in the magazine business. I work on the nationals because the nationals needed work, not because I needed paid.

MX Sports runs 250cc motorcycles together locally and at Loretta Lynn's for a variety of reasons, including to help keep costs down for amateurs. I have absolutely nothing against two-strokes, but I do have a problem with blowing up the series and running off factory teams and factory jobs like we've seen in other forms of racing when rules did not mesh with the products offered by the OEMs.

And Themtroad, the AMA Motocross Series had better attendance and a vastly bigger TV audience than it has ever had in 2010, which was a down year for the economy. Appreciate the doom-and-gloom scenario you painted, but like AMA Supercross, which also utilizes the AMA rulebook we've done a pretty good job in attracting fans and sponsors and getting our sport on TV while other forms of professional racing have struggled.

DC
MX Sports
Davey mentions that the factories that don't manufacture two-strokes now (Honda) might r-u-n-n-o-f-t if they were introduced back into professional racing. Let's remember, Honda didn't make a two-stroke in '72. 1973 is remembered for one of their most memorable, and competitive race bikes ever, though. I don't know if we could hope for another Elsinore, but I really doubt they would turn tail and run.

Say it fast 3 times; Forced Joke, forced joke, forced joke
burn1986
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1/13/2011 2:26pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 2:30pm
DC wrote:
I am headed home and headed to Phoenix, which means I won't be defending my stance here anymore tonight, or trying to explain that I didn't...
I am headed home and headed to Phoenix, which means I won't be defending my stance here anymore tonight, or trying to explain that I didn't write the four-stroke rule in the first place, and I can't change it by myself (nor do I think it's wise to do so now at the pro level given the investment the teams have already made over many years in changing to four-strokes). But I will keep trying to do my small part to improve the series and the sport, along with everyone else on here.



Anyone who wants to contact me directly can reach me at: DC@mxsports.com.



DC

MX Sports
I'm amazed that this thread is still going. Oh well, It's true that the factories have wanted 4-strokes in racing, but the AMA (specifically the official in charge of them) is the gatekeeper of these wants and desires of the factories.

The reason you get targeted is because you are an AMA official (and because you are on this forum). I think many people find it amazing that a person can be a series promoter and preside as an AMA official over his own series.

I think we have drifted off into arguing over 25 and 50cc, which is pretty ridiculous, but as you said, in your world this is life and death.

Oh yeah, and you never did answer the first question, "Do you think the current AMA Pro rules are fair for the 2-stroke?"
Kurt
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1/13/2011 2:33pm
Wasn't there something similar in road-racing, in which they unfairly changed the displacement limit to humor Harley's weak twin and called it the 998cc class.
This one carries the same odor.
mooch
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1/13/2011 2:35pm
mooch wrote:
...yep a manual and some deep pockets for all the cash needed to cover the various parts that will be thrashed. There's really no debate needed...
...yep a manual and some deep pockets for all the cash needed to cover the various parts that will be thrashed. There's really no debate needed when it comes to the cost of a rebuild of any kind on a 4 stroke when compared to the antique 2 strokes.
gaines1016 wrote:
i believe the debate has already happened several times and from what i have garnered and experienced personally on the matter is that unless there is...
i believe the debate has already happened several times and from what i have garnered and experienced personally on the matter is that unless there is catastrophic failure the difference is not as much as is claimed by the 2stroke proponents.

but now you can claim that catastrophic engine failures happen all the time with 4 strokes.
Gaines, I'm not sure which debates you've been in on or what your personal experiences have been, but a simple trip over to one of the OEM parts sites will show what the parts price differences are on a simple top end rebuild that only includes pin, clips, rings and piston.

If you really want to see that price gap grow wider, just check out some prices on the valves, cam chains, etc.

KTM 250F top end parts - $320.24

KTM 250 2 stroke top end parts - 191.10

Of course we both know if you lunch a 4stroke, you might as well part the sucker out!
FreshTopEnd
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1/13/2011 2:39pm
Kurt wrote:
Davey mentions that the factories that don't manufacture two-strokes now (Honda) might r-u-n-n-o-f-t if they were introduced back into professional racing. Let's remember, Honda didn't make...
Davey mentions that the factories that don't manufacture two-strokes now (Honda) might r-u-n-n-o-f-t if they were introduced back into professional racing. Let's remember, Honda didn't make a two-stroke in '72. 1973 is remembered for one of their most memorable, and competitive race bikes ever, though. I don't know if we could hope for another Elsinore, but I really doubt they would turn tail and run.

Say it fast 3 times; Forced Joke, forced joke, forced joke
1/13/2011 2:40pm
DC wrote:
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther...
Burn, I think I have done a few things useful and helpful, but I can't change the evolution of this industry, and neither can Kevin Crowther. You want changes based on assumptions that it will make racing better for some, but what about the others? What if it doesn't work? What if everyone who doesn't make a two-stroke gets whipped? Do you think they will turn around and invest more in two-stroke racing, or just shut the doors and fire all of their riders and mechanics and focus on something else? Because that really might happen, and I don't really think our sport can take that risk right now. It's easy to demand change, based on opinion and preference, but what happens on the ground, in the pits, at a professional race?



It's easy to take risks with other people's careers and demand products to be changed to fit your cost range and preference when you're on a message board or bench racing at the parts counter, or pay way too much for an engine fix, but go to the next industry meeting and tell them you're changing the rules on them after all these years and all this investment, and in these financial times, and see how it goes.



There are real passions on either side of this, but one side is actually making the products and utilizing them in their racing programs, and we still need their participation in our sport. I wish it were different, but until it is, I guess I can't be helpful and useful here.



DC

MX Sports

The same risks were taken in 1997.
FreshTopEnd
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1/13/2011 2:42pm
burn1986 wrote:
I'm amazed that this thread is still going. Oh well, It's true that the factories have wanted 4-strokes in racing, but the AMA (specifically the official...
I'm amazed that this thread is still going. Oh well, It's true that the factories have wanted 4-strokes in racing, but the AMA (specifically the official in charge of them) is the gatekeeper of these wants and desires of the factories.

The reason you get targeted is because you are an AMA official (and because you are on this forum). I think many people find it amazing that a person can be a series promoter and preside as an AMA official over his own series.

I think we have drifted off into arguing over 25 and 50cc, which is pretty ridiculous, but as you said, in your world this is life and death.

Oh yeah, and you never did answer the first question, "Do you think the current AMA Pro rules are fair for the 2-stroke?"
The AMA has nothing to do with outdoor Pro MX in the US beyond lingering obligations with respect to the Motocross Des Nations Team. MXSports is not a part of the AMA, and I think DC resigned any positions he had with the AMA long before the AMA sold AMA Pro Racing to Daytona Motorsports Group.
burn1986
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1/13/2011 2:44pm
Kurt wrote:
Davey mentions that the factories that don't manufacture two-strokes now (Honda) might r-u-n-n-o-f-t if they were introduced back into professional racing. Let's remember, Honda didn't make...
Davey mentions that the factories that don't manufacture two-strokes now (Honda) might r-u-n-n-o-f-t if they were introduced back into professional racing. Let's remember, Honda didn't make a two-stroke in '72. 1973 is remembered for one of their most memorable, and competitive race bikes ever, though. I don't know if we could hope for another Elsinore, but I really doubt they would turn tail and run.

Say it fast 3 times; Forced Joke, forced joke, forced joke
Ineresting article. What is the status of AMA Superbikes today? What caused them to pull out, other than "company goals"?
burn1986
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1/13/2011 2:47pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 2:48pm
The AMA has nothing to do with outdoor Pro MX in the US beyond lingering obligations with respect to the Motocross Des Nations Team. MXSports is...
The AMA has nothing to do with outdoor Pro MX in the US beyond lingering obligations with respect to the Motocross Des Nations Team. MXSports is not a part of the AMA, and I think DC resigned any positions he had with the AMA long before the AMA sold AMA Pro Racing to Daytona Motorsports Group.
So DC is no longer an AMA official and has nothing to do with changes to the AMA Pro Racing Rulebook for MX?
gaines1016
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1/13/2011 2:51pm
mooch wrote:
Gaines, I'm not sure which debates you've been in on or what your personal experiences have been, but a simple trip over to one of the...
Gaines, I'm not sure which debates you've been in on or what your personal experiences have been, but a simple trip over to one of the OEM parts sites will show what the parts price differences are on a simple top end rebuild that only includes pin, clips, rings and piston.

If you really want to see that price gap grow wider, just check out some prices on the valves, cam chains, etc.

KTM 250F top end parts - $320.24

KTM 250 2 stroke top end parts - 191.10

Of course we both know if you lunch a 4stroke, you might as well part the sucker out!
the post i saw with the most factual information (seemed most factual and well put together by me anyway) was from a gentlemen who has been racing both 2 and 4 strokes and used a spreadsheet to keep track of his yearly racing costs and bike maintenance info/schedules. While the spreadsheet did show that the cost of parts was higher up front for maintenance/wear items the service life was also longer in many cases on the 4 stroke, which in the end saw an almost equal cost for a years worth of racing between the 2 types of motors with similar hours. he stuck very strictly to the service manual for service duration on parts for both bikes. i found this "amateur" study to represent the closest thing to the truth i have seen presented (as if i were to do the study myself i would have arranged it very similarly).

this then got into people arguing semantics of where one could get such and such part much cheaper then he listed or he could have used this aftermarket product which is cheaper then using the oem part. that aside i found it to be a fairly accurate representation. this again dealing with regular maintenance and replacement of wear items at proper durations as to avoid catastrophic engine failure.
KTMTroopeR
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Orting, WA, USA
1/13/2011 2:53pm
DC wrote:
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and...
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and number of bikes will actually be there this time. I don't think anyone on this board is an actual 16 to 19-year-old prospect who would participate, though a few parents and sponsors might be on here....

Question on straight-up racing in the 250 class: how woold Mike Alessi do in the 250 class on a factory KTM two-smoke? I am afraid the answer would not be good for racing, but it would be great for #800.... That's the real conundrum. Some think it will even the playing field, but I am afraid it would give others a distinct advantage, and then the factories that still make and market two-strokes in America would have an overwhelming advantage.

Just my two cents.

DC
MX Sports
151 wrote:
Isn't what you described, exactly what we have now? Only currently we have a situation where others have a distinct advantage because of a rule on...
Isn't what you described, exactly what we have now? Only currently we have a situation where others have a distinct advantage because of a rule on displacement.

Which is more or less fair? An equal displacemnet rule that favors some, or a unequal displacement rule that favors some?

The truth is just what you said, millions have been spent on 4S R&D. Regardless of the reason that money will not be wasted by the factories.
Yea explain the logic, no one rides a 125 in the lights class because the 250f clearly has more of an advantage over the 2 smoker. So why would it be wrong to up the displacement of a 2stroke to compete with a 4stroke.

And as far as only two factories making 2strokes, is there any one holding a gun to the other factories heads telling them not to make a 2stroke any more?
FreshTopEnd
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1/13/2011 2:54pm
Kurt wrote:
Davey mentions that the factories that don't manufacture two-strokes now (Honda) might r-u-n-n-o-f-t if they were introduced back into professional racing. Let's remember, Honda didn't make...
Davey mentions that the factories that don't manufacture two-strokes now (Honda) might r-u-n-n-o-f-t if they were introduced back into professional racing. Let's remember, Honda didn't make a two-stroke in '72. 1973 is remembered for one of their most memorable, and competitive race bikes ever, though. I don't know if we could hope for another Elsinore, but I really doubt they would turn tail and run.

Say it fast 3 times; Forced Joke, forced joke, forced joke
burn1986 wrote:
Ineresting article. What is the status of AMA Superbikes today? What caused them to pull out, other than "company goals"?
Now you really want a can of worms open, lol.

Here's an editorial from last year. Anyone who thinks the manufacturer needs one particular racing series more than the series needs them at this point, and that they won't walk from racing if it suites them, is not living in reality. Someday, maybe, but less now than ever.

http://www.sportrider.com/features/146_0805_ama/index.html


1/13/2011 3:00pm
4 strokes MX bikes are a business model much like mobile phones or printers and the like,
relatively cheap to buy but then they got you by the balls! if the battery shits it self its (drop a valve or crank) your better off just to buy a new one and if you need a new ink cartridge you just end up paying through the nose for replace ones.



FreshTopEnd
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Sacramento, CA, USA
1/13/2011 3:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 3:07pm
The AMA has nothing to do with outdoor Pro MX in the US beyond lingering obligations with respect to the Motocross Des Nations Team. MXSports is...
The AMA has nothing to do with outdoor Pro MX in the US beyond lingering obligations with respect to the Motocross Des Nations Team. MXSports is not a part of the AMA, and I think DC resigned any positions he had with the AMA long before the AMA sold AMA Pro Racing to Daytona Motorsports Group.
burn1986 wrote:
So DC is no longer an AMA official and has nothing to do with changes to the AMA Pro Racing Rulebook for MX?
DMG bought AMA Pro Racing from the AMA when the AMA decided to get out of promoting pro motorcycle racing (other than a nominal presence in supercross). The AMA and AMA Pro Racing are now, since 2008, two completely independent entities. Yes, DC is part of MXSports, which has contracted with DMG to run pro motocross for DMG's AMA Pro Racing. My understanding is that DMG has let MXSports run MX under that contract without direction from DMG.



The four stroke rules that set the table for how the OEM's were and are running their pro racing programs were set it place by the AMA itself long before the AMA decided to divest itself of pro racing.



I don't think you can flip DC off for not telling the OEM's to pound sand and implement new rules over their objections against the backdrop of what was going on at the same time with other racing elements of DMG's management when they tried to force rules on the OEMs.
gaines1016
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98
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Sioux City, IA, USA
1/13/2011 3:15pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 3:32pm
scotttydog wrote:
4 strokes MX bikes are a business model much like mobile phones or printers and the like, relatively cheap to buy but then they got you...
4 strokes MX bikes are a business model much like mobile phones or printers and the like,
relatively cheap to buy but then they got you by the balls! if the battery shits it self its (drop a valve or crank) your better off just to buy a new one and if you need a new ink cartridge you just end up paying through the nose for replace ones.



i keep seeing this conspiracy theory. if this was their supposed business model wouldnt the manf. do this throughout every line/model of bikes they produce? or do they just have it out for motocrossers?



i dont see the same talk about cruisers or even tracked sportbikes. somebody inform the manf. that they are letting tons of money slip through their fingers in those markets by not producing those bikes with fast wearing self destructing exploding parts.
hellion
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Westfield, MA, USA
1/13/2011 3:23pm
DC wrote:
I am headed home and headed to Phoenix, which means I won't be defending my stance here anymore tonight, or trying to explain that I didn't...
I am headed home and headed to Phoenix, which means I won't be defending my stance here anymore tonight, or trying to explain that I didn't write the four-stroke rule in the first place, and I can't change it by myself (nor do I think it's wise to do so now at the pro level given the investment the teams have already made over many years in changing to four-strokes). But I will keep trying to do my small part to improve the series and the sport, along with everyone else on here.



Anyone who wants to contact me directly can reach me at: DC@mxsports.com.



DC

MX Sports
MAJOR BUMMER. I used to see you as the anti establishment force with the amatuer focused paper who didn't care what the big's had to say. Now you are the Establishment. You just said the cause is no longer worth fighting for because you will not change a thing. IT'S OVER JOHNNY!
1/13/2011 3:30pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 3:32pm
AMA supercross/outdoors will probably die just like their road series.. LOL! Fuck the big 4.. They just opened a big market to others manufacturers.. I won't wait another decade for them to build another 2 stroke.. I can't stand watching tractors racing anymore. I am ready to pay a lot more to get an EFI 2 stroke with updated plastic and frame but just make the rules fair and build the damn thing!!!!!! How crazy it will be to see a brand new 450cc two stroke on the floor!!!!! This sport lost his integrity for cash. I don't care about the fucking TV coverage or James Stewart paycheck.. I just want our sport back!!!!! FUCK MOWERCROSS.
gaines1016
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Sioux City, IA, USA
1/13/2011 3:42pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2011 3:43pm
the amount of misinformation in this thread is once again staggering. then to ridicule the one guy who is in a position to pass on ideas and that cares enough about the sport to read and participate on a forum with all of us. brilliant.
1/13/2011 3:43pm
scotttydog wrote:
4 strokes MX bikes are a business model much like mobile phones or printers and the like, relatively cheap to buy but then they got you...
4 strokes MX bikes are a business model much like mobile phones or printers and the like,
relatively cheap to buy but then they got you by the balls! if the battery shits it self its (drop a valve or crank) your better off just to buy a new one and if you need a new ink cartridge you just end up paying through the nose for replace ones.



gaines1016 wrote:
i keep seeing this conspiracy theory. if this was their supposed business model wouldnt the manf. do this throughout every line/model of bikes they produce? or...
i keep seeing this conspiracy theory. if this was their supposed business model wouldnt the manf. do this throughout every line/model of bikes they produce? or do they just have it out for motocrossers?



i dont see the same talk about cruisers or even tracked sportbikes. somebody inform the manf. that they are letting tons of money slip through their fingers in those markets by not producing those bikes with fast wearing self destructing exploding parts.
yes same thing in cruisers and sport bikes, if you drop one your insurance company will most likely just right it off and pay you for a new one

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